Q on Acquired (Grandfathered) Rights

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

I subscribe to the Drivershours.co.uk newsletter and in the latest received this information about Grandfather or Acquired Rights:

"This week I thought I would just mention something that came up on
a Driver CPC course I was delivering on the weekend. As you
probably know, if you passed your HGV/PCV test before the
introduction of the driver CPC training then you have grandfather
or acquired rights.
You’ll have ‘acquired rights’ if:

You are a lorry driver and got your vocational licence
(C, C1, C+E and C1+E) before 10 September 2009
or

If you are a bus or coach driver and got your vocational licence
(D, D1, D+E and D1+E) before 10 September 2008

If you have these acquired rights then you need to complete 35
hours of DSA certified driver CPC training by:

September 2013 for PCV license holders
or
September 2014 for HGV license holders

This is where the confusion started. One of the guys who came to
attend the course on the weekend actually passed his HGV test in
January of 2010 and therefore didn’t have grandfather rights.

For people in this situation they need to have completed their
initial Driver CPC qualification before they are allowed to drive
for a living.

The Initial Driver CPC is merged with the driving test and comes
in four parts
Part 1 - theory test
(2 separate tests - multiple-choice and hazard perception)

Part 2 - Driver CPC case studies test

Part 3 - driving ability test (The Driving Test)

Part 4 - Driver CPC practical demonstration test

In this particular case, the candidate had not completed part 4.
This meant until he did complete the last part he was unable to
attend the course, as the DSA would simply reject his name if I
attempted to upload it, and he was also committing an offence by
driving an HGV in his current job.

At first he didn’t take me seriously when advised of such, but
was shocked when discovering I was indeed speaking facts.

So I wondered, how many other people are in the same position and
don’t even realise it."

Is this information correct?

I passed my car test in the early '80’s and when I did my HGV training in 2010, I was told by the training company that I didn’t need to do parts 2 & 4 as I had “Grandfather Rights” and was already able to drive upto 7.5tonne on my car licence.

I have also since completed my 35hrs CPC training and received my CPC Driver Qualification card.

This seems to conflict with the content of the newsletter, so who’s right? Or is there two different sets of rules covering this?

Thanks

Nez

2

The driver who passed C in 2010 - if he passed car test before 1997 then he already had acquired rights by being given a free LGV C1

What often confuses folks is the term LGV and they tend to think of it as having passed a DSA LGV test but the term LGV refers to all categories of LGV from C1 to C+E

Gets even more confusing when folks think of HGV because in their mind HGV means anything over 7.5 tonnes GVW (now C) so they dismiss the LGV C1 range from 3.5 to 7.5 tonnes

The simplest way to look at it is this … did the driver have a C1 on their licence before 10/09/2009?
If YES then they have LGV acquired rights
If NO then they need initial LGV modules 2 and 4

The above is to enable them to drive LGVs commercially - not privately or under another dcpc exemption

3

As I understood it - if you passed your B licence category before 1997 you got C1 entitlement and acquired DCPC until September 2014. Anyone who passed after 1996 no longer got acquired rights unless they did C D or CE before September 2008.

4

Nezza:
Is this information correct?

As far as I can see it looks correct.

Nezza:
I passed my car test in the early '80’s and when I did my HGV training in 2010, I was told by the training company that I didn’t need to do parts 2 & 4 as I had “Grandfather Rights” and was already able to drive upto 7.5tonne on my car licence.

I have also since completed my 35hrs CPC training and received my CPC Driver Qualification card.

This seems to conflict with the content of the newsletter, so who’s right? Or is there two different sets of rules covering this?

No it doesn’t conflict with the article you read.

You had cat C1 on your licence because you passed the car test before January 1st 1997, because you had cat C1 on your licence when the DCPC came in you have acquired rights.

It may seem a bit odd that people who may have never passed an HGV test or even driven anything bigger than a car, or for that matter never have driven at-all after passing the car test, could have acquired rights but that is the way it works.

5

Thanks ROG, so if the example in the newsletter is correct, then the said driver must have passed his car test after the 1997 cut off. Would have been nice if the newsletter had clarified this!

Cheers

6

m1cks:
As I understood it - if you passed your B licence category before 1997 you got C1 entitlement and acquired DCPC until September 2014. Anyone who passed after 1996 no longer got acquired rights unless they did C D or CE before September 2008.

Different dates for PCV and LGV - PCV before sept 08 and LGV before sept 09

A driver who passed car test after 1996 but took and passed a DSA LGV C1 test before sept 10 2009 or a DSA D1 test before sept 10 2008 also has acquired rights

7

Thanks m1cks and tachograph.

8

Nezza:
Thanks ROG, so if the example in the newsletter is correct, then the said driver must have passed his car test after the 1997 cut off. Would have been nice if the newsletter had clarified this!

Cheers

Its not in what I would call simple plain English especially when it could have been written like this …

A driver who had a D1 (even if with 101 code) on their licence before 10/09/2008 has DCPC PCV acquired rights
A driver who had a C1 on their licence before 10/09/2009 has DCPC LGV acquired rights

Two simple statements …yes?

9

Nezza:
So I wondered, how many other people are in the same position and
don’t even realise it."

Hi Nezza,

I’ve encountered the ‘no Mod 4’ thing a few times.
When I run an ADR course and DCPC candidates are present, I start by finding out…
When did you pass your car test? (Quite a few are pre-97 and therefore in the system at this point.)
Next, I ask the remainder… when did you pass any Cat C test? (If before 9th Sept 2009, then they’re OK.)
If they passed their first Cat C test on or after 10th Sept 2009, I ask a very small remainder whether they’ve completed Mod 4.

I’ve had a few guys who didn’t have mod 4, so I gave them a choice as to whether they wished to proceed with taking their ADR but without DCPC, which then saved them a few bob.

Some providers don’t ask the right questions when taking a booking for ADR, but others are quite sharp.

I’ve just noticed your avatar and I’m wondering whether we might have met on 12th May at FTR? :smiley:

10

Thanks Dave, I really need to update my avatar…I left Tenens last month! Lol

11

Nezza:
Thanks Dave, I really need to update my avatar…I left Tenens last month! Lol

Ahh Nezza… understood. :smiley:

Just for a while, the unit looked like Air Products (to me :blush: :blush: ) and it was one of their DCPC trainers that I met, so needing some new glasses is why I asked. :grimacing:

12

dieseldave:
I’ve encountered the ‘no Mod 4’ thing a few times.
When I run an ADR course and DCPC candidates are present, I start by finding out…
When did you pass your car test? (Quite a few are pre-97 and therefore in the system at this point.)
Next, I ask the remainder… when did you pass any Cat C test? (If before 9th Sept 2009, then they’re OK.)
If they passed their first Cat C test on or after 10th Sept 2009, I ask a very small remainder whether they’ve completed Mod 4.

You might ask if they have passed C or C1 as quite a few drivers took and passed the DSA C1 test only between 1997 and 2009

13

ROG:

dieseldave:
I’ve encountered the ‘no Mod 4’ thing a few times.
When I run an ADR course and DCPC candidates are present, I start by finding out…
When did you pass your car test? (Quite a few are pre-97 and therefore in the system at this point.)
Next, I ask the remainder… when did you pass any Cat C test? (If before 9th Sept 2009, then they’re OK.)
If they passed their first Cat C test on or after 10th Sept 2009, I ask a very small remainder whether they’ve completed Mod 4.

You might ask if they have passed C or C1 as quite a few drivers took and passed the DSA C1 test only between 1997 and 2009

I do ROG, I’ve made it red now. :wink:

14

dieseldave:

ROG:

dieseldave:
I’ve encountered the ‘no Mod 4’ thing a few times.
When I run an ADR course and DCPC candidates are present, I start by finding out…
When did you pass your car test? (Quite a few are pre-97 and therefore in the system at this point.)
Next, I ask the remainder… when did you pass any Cat C test? (If before 9th Sept 2009, then they’re OK.)
If they passed their first Cat C test on or after 10th Sept 2009, I ask a very small remainder whether they’ve completed Mod 4.

You might ask if they have passed C or C1 as quite a few drivers took and passed the DSA C1 test only between 1997 and 2009

I do ROG, I’ve made it red now. :wink:

I think most would read that as cat C (class2or3 in old money) and not think it meant a 7.5 tonner - would be interesting to ask a few though

15

ROG:

dieseldave:

ROG:

dieseldave:
I’ve encountered the ‘no Mod 4’ thing a few times.
When I run an ADR course and DCPC candidates are present, I start by finding out…
When did you pass your car test? (Quite a few are pre-97 and therefore in the system at this point.)
Next, I ask the remainder… when did you pass any Cat C test? (If before 9th Sept 2009, then they’re OK.)
If they passed their first Cat C test on or after 10th Sept 2009, I ask a very small remainder whether they’ve completed Mod 4.

You might ask if they have passed C or C1 as quite a few drivers took and passed the DSA C1 test only between 1997 and 2009

I do ROG, I’ve made it red now. :wink:

I think most would read that as cat C (class2or3 in old money) and not think it meant a 7.5 tonner - would be interesting to ask a few though

That’s a good point ROG, because there aren’t that many people who realise that Cat C1 is a sub-category of Cat C. :smiley: