Right my understanding of POA is the the length of time MUST be agreed in advance…
For example, you arrive at the gatehouse for a delivery at 12.00 and your paperwork say 13.00 you can begin to record POA.
another example I think is correct, (this is on technicalities) I park OVER THE ROAD from a gatehouse or office etc, turn off the engine, walk over to someone on site, say I arrive at 12.00 and he says oh we will tip you at 13.00. We have agreed a time and I walk back to my cab as we have PRE ARRANGED my offload time.
Shoul I drive straight upto the gatehouse at 12.00 and they say oh it’s gonna be an hour. Cause I’m still at the wheel and the engine is running, we haven’t agreed a period BEFORE I arrived. The way I see it I can’t record POA
personally POA is a waste of time IMO
Our gaffer is constantly hounding us to use POA, I broke down the other week at some lights on a DC, first thing the gaffer said is, ae you on POA… I replied, yeah I’m fine, thanks for asking.
Also he is making drivers record time as POA after events. Way I see it is he can’t do this…
limeyphil:
just stick it on other work for five minutes. then stick it on rest.
it looks nice and tidy.
yep, make it look like you spoke to someone, let them (VOSA) prove you never knew in advance, remember one thing, every full minute counts towards POA regardless of what the waiting room expert may tell you.
limeyphil:
just stick it on other work for five minutes. then stick it on rest.
it looks nice and tidy.
yep, make it look like you spoke to someone, let them (VOSA) prove you never knew in advance, remember one thing, every full minute counts towards POA regardless of what the waiting room expert may tell you.
Tbh I don’t want to use POA cause the gaffer uses it to bring our working time average down. So the longer I’m on other work or drive then the more time off he has to give me…
I think my main gripe is that HE thinks HE can decide when POA is used. Even after events
thelorryist:
Right my understanding of POA is the the length of time MUST be agreed in advance…
The wording is vague. It doesn’t need to be “agreed” in advance, the wording is something along the lines of that the likely duration of the POA must be “known” in advance. It is acceptable to book POA if, for example, you are going to an RDC where you know you usually have to wait for 2 hours before you get tipped, even if nobody has told you on that visit that you will have that wait. If you happen to get tipped sooner then that isn’t a problem. The rules are sufficiently vague that it would be almost impossible to prosecute a driver for misuse.
thelorryist:
I think my main gripe is that HE thinks HE can decide when POA is used.
To be fair to him if you have, for example, a blowout and the tyre fitter says “it’ll be an hour mate” then technically you’re not driving or working while waiting so you should be on either break or POA, neither of which count towards your working time. Unless you can somehow justify that you are working by safely directing traffic round your stricken vehicle or something like that of course…
POA is the biggest load of crap. I used to record it but kept forgetting to switch it back; I was brokedown for 4hours on Wednesday and left it on other work. Got lorry going at 12.15 and headed straight for a nice quiet layby for 50minutes break…
If you agree the time in advance you can go on break and dispose of your time freely until the time you agreed you would go tip.
Period of availability basically means your doing ■■■■ all but available to move or work when needed, example, gate guard says; can’t give you a time just yet, could be 5 mins could be 2 hours, go park over there drive.
ibson:
Period of availability basically means your doing [zb] all but available to move or work when needed, example, gate guard says; can’t give you a time just yet, could be 5 mins could be 2 hours, go park over there drive.
In that example you would be committing an offence if you recorded it as a POA. From the DFT guidance on the regulations:
Generally speaking a period of availability (PoA) is waiting time, the duration of
which is known about in advance by the mobile worker. Under the Regulations, these
periods have to meet the following criteria:
a mobile worker should not be required to remain at their workstation;
(but) they must be available to answer calls to start work or resume driving on
request;
the period and the foreseeable duration should be known in advance by the
mobile worker, either before departure or just before the start of the period in
question.
As highlighted in red you must know the foreseeable duration in advance so if you are told “could be 5 mintues, could be 2 hours” then you can’t book it as POA.
ibson:
Period of availability basically means your doing [zb] all but available to move or work when needed, example, gate guard says; can’t give you a time just yet, could be 5 mins could be 2 hours, go park over there drive.
In that example you would be committing an offence if you recorded it as a POA. From the DFT guidance on the regulations:
Generally speaking a period of availability (PoA) is waiting time, the duration of
which is known about in advance by the mobile worker. Under the Regulations, these
periods have to meet the following criteria:
a mobile worker should not be required to remain at their workstation;
(but) they must be available to answer calls to start work or resume driving on
request;
the period and the foreseeable duration should be known in advance by the
mobile worker, either before departure or just before the start of the period in
question.
As highlighted in red you must know the foreseeable duration in advance so if you are told “could be 5 mintues, could be 2 hours” then you can’t book it as POA.
Paul
Well I’d argue that one down to the ground with VOSA. I know I’m getting tipped here this morning/this afternoon (that’s the knowing in advance bit) I’m in my truck or around the yard (that’s the available bit) and again I know im going to be tiped in the foreseeable.
I didn’t make it clear that a specific time was agreed, but you could argue it to the nano second. If you are told to wait somewhere and you know it’s “relatively” soon (today) I would put it on POA IMO
NathanB:
How could Vosa prove the time wasn’t pre arranged? It’s all nonsense and not worth worrying about.
Your right, and after everything I said, I only ever use rest or other work… Lol and I like to see my drivers do the same if I’m honest, if they are waiting they usually keep busy by doing their paper work or cleaning the truck as they normally do. If not and they know they are going to be a set amount of time and they haven’t got anything to do I would expect them to be having break.
ibson:
Well I’d argue that one down to the ground with VOSA.
You wouldn’t need to cos they don’t care, I was just pointing out that technically in order to book POA the likely duration needs to be known in advance. If you’re told “could be 5 minutes, could be 2 hours” then by the letter of the law you can only really book the first 5 minutes as POA, the rest of the waiting time is either break or other work.
The whole thing is nonsense anyway, the requirements for break are less than POA and neither count towards your working time so the only time anyone should really be booking POA is if their employer doesn’t pay breaks and uses their tacho records to work out their wages. For everyone else they might as well just put it on break instead of POA as for that there is no requirement in law to know the likely duration in advance.
ibson:
Well I’d argue that one down to the ground with VOSA.
You wouldn’t need to cos they don’t care, I was just pointing out that technically in order to book POA the likely duration needs to be known in advance. If you’re told “could be 5 minutes, could be 2 hours” then by the letter of the law you can only really book the first 5 minutes as POA, the rest of the waiting time is either break or other work.
The whole thing is nonsense anyway, the requirements for break are less than POA and neither count towards your working time so the only time anyone should really be booking POA is if their employer doesn’t pay breaks and uses their tacho records to work out their wages. For everyone else they might as well just put it on break instead of POA as for that there is no requirement in law to know the likely duration in advance.
When you book poa, is it simply switching the tacho or do you write it on timesheet with what the poa is? When it first came out, we were told to write the reason; Nobody really bothered and I don’t think anyone even bothers switching over now.
i would think it would be a company thing, if using digi the only time you need to right any thing on a print out would be if the unit was faulty, or you made a mode switch error.
NathanB:
When you book poa, is it simply switching the tacho or do you write it on timesheet with what the poa is? When it first came out, we were told to write the reason; Nobody really bothered and I don’t think anyone even bothers switching over now.
When you use POA you just use the tachograph mode button/switch to put it onto POA, as delboytwo said writing it on a time-sheet would have been a company policy, it’s nothing to do with the regulations
Good to see you posting again Del, hope things are going well for you
