This question has been bugging me for ages but only comes up once every 6months for me when I’m in a squeeze.
So to put it in a simplified way:
I start at 6am and finish at 6pm generally. I have 2 hours POA between 8am - 10am which means I need to take my first 15minute break by the latest 2pm!
I took a 30minute break instead of a 15minute break at 13:00 which takes me between 6 - 9 hours work so does it push back the need for a second 30minutes to 5pm or is it still by 3pm the 30minutes is needed ?
It’s the second break I’m wondering what time it’s needed by not the first.
From your printout, driving time isn’t an issue (ie you’re getting nowhere near 4.5 hours driving during your shift). So we only need to consider Working Time breaks.
Your 30 minute break at 1300hrs means that you could continue for another 6 hours (ie until 1930hrs) without a break, although you’d still have to take a further 15 minute break at some point during the shift to take your total Break time to 45 minutes. Essentially you could take this 15 minutes at any time to suit you, as long as there was at least one minute of Work between Break and End Of Shift.
I leave it to the usual suspects to question why you’d want to do this.
As your total work/drive time is over 9 hours then you need a total of 45 mins WTD breaks
Each break must be at least 15 mins
At no point in the shift must you do more than 6 hours work/drive without at least a 15 min break
Breaks cannot be at the start or end of a shift
As said - in your case the total drive time does not exceed 4.5 hours so driving time breaks are not a concern
Roymondo:
From your printout, driving time isn’t an issue (ie you’re getting nowhere near 4.5 hours driving during your shift). So we only need to consider Working Time breaks.
Your 30 minute break at 1300hrs means that you could continue for another 6 hours (ie until 1930hrs) without a break, although you’d still have to take a further 15 minute break at some point during the shift to take your total Break time to 45 minutes. Essentially you could take this 15 minutes at any time to suit you, as long as there was at least one minute of Work between Break and End Of Shift.
I leave it to the usual suspects to question why you’d want to do this.
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Thanks for your response but I think you misunderstood my question abit. Also my 30minute break at 13:00 doesn’t allow me to work until 19:30 because then I would exceed the 9hour limit on 30minutes and would need to be another 30minute break rather than just 15minutes as you can do a 15 + 30min but not 30 + 15 minutes in breaks.
What I’m asking is based on my tacho slip really but to simplify :
I start at 07:00 and finish at 19:00.
I took a 30minute break at 14:00 because I had done 3 hours POA between 10am to 1pm. To complete the 45minutes break requirement what is the latest I can take the second 30minute break ?
You’ve already booked 3h7m POA and 37m of Break (total 3h44m of non-working time). Your driving time so far is only 1hr15m.
You started at 0715 and your Break ended at 1350.
You won’t reach 9 hours Working Time until almost 10pm, but you will reach 6hrs without a Break at 1950hrs, which is the very latest time by which you would need another 15 minutes Break.
Also for WTD purposes you can split your Breaks any way you like as long as each one is at least 15 minutes in duration (so 15+15+15 or 30+15 or 15+30 or 22+23 are all fine for WTD purposes). You don’t need to consider Driving Time Breaks if you’re not driving for more than 4.5 hours.
So if you’re finishing 1900 or 1915 (to make it a full 12 hour shift) you don’t need another Break.
Roymondo:
From your printout, driving time isn’t an issue (ie you’re getting nowhere near 4.5 hours driving during your shift). So we only need to consider Working Time breaks.
Your 30 minute break at 1300hrs means that you could continue for another 6 hours (ie until 1930hrs) without a break, although you’d still have to take a further 15 minute break at some point during the shift to take your total Break time to 45 minutes. Essentially you could take this 15 minutes at any time to suit you, as long as there was at least one minute of Work between Break and End Of Shift.
I leave it to the usual suspects to question why you’d want to do this.
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Thanks for your response but I think you misunderstood my question abit. Also my 30minute break at 13:00 doesn’t allow me to work until 19:30 because then I would exceed the 9hour limit on 30minutes and would need to be another 30minute break rather than just 15minutes as you can do a 15 + 30min but not 30 + 15 minutes in breaks.
What I’m asking is based on my tacho slip really but to simplify :
I start at 07:00 and finish at 19:00.
I took a 30minute break at 14:00 because I had done 3 hours POA between 10am to 1pm. To complete the 45minutes break requirement what is the latest I can take the second 30minute break ?
In what reality does your printout get close to 4.5 hrs driving? It’s 1 hr 18 mins. All you need is 15 mins sometime before 19:50 and not at the very end of your shift
You’ve already booked 3h7m POA and 37m of Break (total 3h44m of non-working time). Your driving time so far is only 1hr15m.
You started at 0715 and your Break ended at 1350.
You won’t reach 9 hours Working Time until almost 10pm, but you will reach 6hrs without a Break at 1950hrs, which is the very latest time by which you would need another 15 minutes Break.
Also for WTD purposes you can split your Breaks any way you like as long as each one is at least 15 minutes in duration (so 15+15+15 or 30+15 or 15+30 or 22+23 are all fine for WTD purposes). You don’t need to consider Driving Time Breaks if you’re not driving for more than 4.5 hours.
So if you’re finishing 1900 or 1915 (to make it a full 12 hour shift) you don’t need another Break.
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Ah yes yes…It appears your reply was misunderstood. With ROG giving that explanation also is more clear so thanks guys.
The missing piece the OP didn’t state and that wasn’t on the tacho slip is that the total duty from say 07:00 - 19:00 will certainly have more than 4.5hours drive.
So yes the working time directive would require another 15minute break prior to 19:00 but due to forecasted driving time I would need a 30minute break instead to reset the driving time ?
If your driving time in a shift is likely to be over 4.5 hours then the best thing to do is to take a 15 then a 30 as that will cover it all
Example for a 15 hour shift
Work 1 hr
drive 2 hrs
work 2 hrs
drive 1 hr
break 15 mins
drive 1 hr
work 2 hrs
break 30 mins
drive 2 hrs
work 1 hr
drive 2 hrs
work 15 mins
You’ve already booked 3h7m POA and 37m of Break (total 3h44m of non-working time). Your driving time so far is only 1hr15m.
You started at 0715 and your Break ended at 1350.
You won’t reach 9 hours Working Time until almost 10pm, but you will reach 6hrs without a Break at 1950hrs, which is the very latest time by which you would need another 15 minutes Break.
Also for WTD purposes you can split your Breaks any way you like as long as each one is at least 15 minutes in duration (so 15+15+15 or 30+15 or 15+30 or 22+23 are all fine for WTD purposes). You don’t need to consider Driving Time Breaks if you’re not driving for more than 4.5 hours.
So if you’re finishing 1900 or 1915 (to make it a full 12 hour shift) you don’t need another Break.
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Ah yes yes…It appears your reply was misunderstood. With ROG giving that explanation also is more clear so thanks guys.
The missing piece the OP didn’t state and that wasn’t on the tacho slip is that the total duty from say 07:00 - 19:00 will certainly have more than 4.5hours drive.
So yes the working time directive would require another 15minute break prior to 19:00 but due to forecasted driving time I would need a 30minute break instead to reset the driving time ?
How are you going to do more than 4.5 hours driving? You’ve already stated that you work 7am-7pm but at 4pm (with only 3 hours of your shift remaining) you’ve only driven for 1h15m…
And no, the WTD does not require you to take another break (of any duration) before 19:00 - as I said earlier you can work for 6 hours between Breaks, so you will be OK until 19:50 from a WTD standpoint.
ROG:
If your driving time in a shift is likely to be over 4.5 hours then the best thing to do is to take a 15 then a 30 as that will cover it all
Example for a 15 hour shift
Work 1 hr
drive 2 hrs
work 2 hrs
drive 1 hr
break 15 mins
drive 1 hr
work 2 hrs
break 30 mins
drive 2 hrs
work 1 hr
drive 2 hrs
work 15 mins
Not always but somtimes I like to do it that way as I am paid by the hour with breaks not deducted but thanks for that Rog.
You’ve already booked 3h7m POA and 37m of Break (total 3h44m of non-working time). Your driving time so far is only 1hr15m.
You started at 0715 and your Break ended at 1350.
You won’t reach 9 hours Working Time until almost 10pm, but you will reach 6hrs without a Break at 1950hrs, which is the very latest time by which you would need another 15 minutes Break.
Also for WTD purposes you can split your Breaks any way you like as long as each one is at least 15 minutes in duration (so 15+15+15 or 30+15 or 15+30 or 22+23 are all fine for WTD purposes). You don’t need to consider Driving Time Breaks if you’re not driving for more than 4.5 hours.
So if you’re finishing 1900 or 1915 (to make it a full 12 hour shift) you don’t need another Break.
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Ah yes yes…It appears your reply was misunderstood. With ROG giving that explanation also is more clear so thanks guys.
The missing piece the OP didn’t state and that wasn’t on the tacho slip is that the total duty from say 07:00 - 19:00 will certainly have more than 4.5hours drive.
So yes the working time directive would require another 15minute break prior to 19:00 but due to forecasted driving time I would need a 30minute break instead to reset the driving time ?
How are you going to do more than 4.5 hours driving? You’ve already stated that you work 7am-7pm but at 4pm (with only 3 hours of your shift remaining) you’ve only driven for 1h15m…
And no, the WTD does not require you to take another break (of any duration) before 19:00 - as I said earlier you can work for 6 hours between Breaks, so you will be OK until 19:50 from a WTD standpoint.
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Well actually I stated in the OP I do 6am to 6pm generally which was said to simplify the situation. I can do a 10/11/12/13/14 hour day depending on traffic and distance.
But props - well spotted
If I upload my printout for that day in question I’m sure I hit or was very close to hitting that 4.5 hours. If it was close then I’d take a second break of 30mins just incase of creepy crawley traffic. Besides I already told Rog I’m paid by the hour without Breaks deducted so no harm in doing a 30min to keep me at optimum efficiency!!!
MoffetWizard:
[ I am paid by the hour with breaks not deducted but thanks for that Rog.
Then why the hell do you go anywhere near POA■■?
Coz I’m a professional ha
He does have a point though, the only time using POA instead of break will be beneficial to you is if for some reason you want to delay a driving break to avoid having to have another driving break later in the day, and I would say that for most people that doesn’t happen very often.
As you get paid for breaks it’s better to use break because a period of availability of 15 minutes or more will be wrongly counted by the tachograph as a break and can mess up the driving time shown on the tachograph display, POA of 45 minutes will wrongly reset the driving time on the tachograph display.
MoffetWizard:
[ I am paid by the hour with breaks not deducted but thanks for that Rog.
Then why the hell do you go anywhere near POA■■?
Coz I’m a professional ha
He does have a point though, the only time using POA instead of break will be beneficial to you is if for some reason you want to delay a driving break to avoid having to have another driving break later in the day, and I would say that for most people that doesn’t happen very often.
As you get paid for breaks it’s better to use break because a period of availability of 15 minutes or more will be wrongly counted by the tachograph as a break and can mess up the driving time shown on the tachograph display, POA of 45 minutes will wrongly reset the driving time on the tachograph display.
I thought POA is supposed to be used for waiting to be loaded or unloaded/ getting onto a bay or something. If VOSA stops me and sees use of Break 15times a day, every day and no POA and my workplace sees no use of POA would that be a issue knowing full well I was sitting in the truck waiting to be loaded.
On a side note does anyone know what VDO or ITS stand for and it’s function on the tachograph. Send ITS ■■?
MoffetWizard:
I thought POA is supposed to be used for waiting to be loaded or unloaded/ getting onto a bay or something. If VOSA stops me and sees use of Break 15times a day, every day and no POA and my workplace sees no use of POA would that be a issue knowing full well I was sitting in the truck waiting to be loaded.
Since the introduction of Digi cards I’ve never once selected the POA mode, always break. I’ve never had an issue from DVSA during my interactions with them. I suspect that they too consider it to be a crock of dung that is largely worthless. I sometimes clock six or seven hours a day on break too.
As for sitting around waiting to load/unload, how do you spend your time? I suspect it will be surfing the internet, watching Netflix, drinking coffee etc, in fact all the things that can be classed as recuperation.
MoffetWizard:
I thought POA is supposed to be used for waiting to be loaded or unloaded/ getting onto a bay or something. If VOSA stops me and sees use of Break 15times a day, every day and no POA and my workplace sees no use of POA would that be a issue knowing full well I was sitting in the truck waiting to be loaded.
The official definition of POA:
““period of availability” means a period during which the mobile worker is not required to remain at his workstation, but is required to be available to answer any calls to start or resume driving or to carry out other work”. -Also
“A period shall not be treated as a period of availability unless the mobile worker knows before the start of the relevant period about that period of availability and its reasonably foreseeable duration”.
The official definition of a break:
“‘break’ means any period during which a driver may not carry out any driving or any other work and which is used exclusively for recuperation;”
As long as we’re talking about time at work there is no situation that I can think of where POA would be legal but break would not, so there’s no reason why anyone should question you for using break and not using POA.
Like maoster above when I was driving I never used POA, if I was waiting and it was appropriate for me to book a break that’s what I did and it was never questioned by anyone.
