Again a young manager has decreed that Xmas/Boxing Day although paid does not count as part of your weekly total for working hours,some drivers have had to work today and yesterday because he has stated the two days off can be used as rest,is this correct ?
It depends in of your firm’s T&Cs but I wouldn’t imagine that having paid holiday counts as part of your WTD as anything other than rest.
This is another case of MMTM or more accurately MPFU (My Planner Fouled Up) I reckon.
Rooster:
Again a young manager has decreed that Xmas/Boxing Day although paid does not count as part of your weekly total for working hours,some drivers have had to work today and yesterday because he has stated the two days off can be used as rest,is this correct ?
If you don’t mind me saying, Your question is a bit confused.
Holidays can always be classed as rest, in fact unless they’re worked I don’t see how they can be classed as anything but rest for the tachograph regulations.
Given the thread title I assume your question is about what’s counted for the 48 hour average week in the working time regulations.
Four weeks of the UK’s 5.6 weeks statutory holidays are counted as 8 hours per day or 48 hours for a full weeks holiday, the other 1.6 weeks statutory holiday can be zero rated.
Basically the two day Christmas holiday period if not worked counts as a rest period for the drivers hours and tachograph regulations, but will count as 16 hours (eight hours per day) towards the 48 hour average week.
Having said that, bear in mind that the 48 hours a week working time is an average over the reference period, so there’s certainly nothing illegal about doing more than 48 hours working time in a week.
Having Xmas day and boxing day off counts as a regular 45+ weekly rest for the fixed week 23/12 to 29/12 and resets the 144 hour max period between weekly rests
Apologies for hijacking this thread but the reason for me logging on to this forum section today was to enquire about the self same thing.
The reference period is due to come to an end in March and with the drivers hours getting close to the 48hr period, the company is looking to cut hours back in order for the drivers to be legal etc.
Conversley, I was told that when a driver takes a weeks holiday, the time recorded for the five days is 48 hours and then at the weekend this is recorded as rest. Could somebody please confirm this is correct? Thinking about it logically, if the drivers holiday was not recorded as 48 hours, then this would make the actual working time average plummet.
Also, why is a holiday period classed as 48 hours when a working week is generally 40 hours?
Lusk:
The reference period is due to come to an end in March and with the drivers hours getting close to the 48hr period, the company is looking to cut hours back in order for the drivers to be legal etc.Conversley, I was told that when a driver takes a weeks holiday, the time recorded for the five days is 48 hours and then at the weekend this is recorded as rest. Could somebody please confirm this is correct?
No it’s not quite correct.
A weeks holiday is counted as 48 hours for the RT(WT)R but the whole week is still counted as rest for the drivers hours and tachograph regulations.
For instance if you finished at say 23:00 Sunday night then had a week off, the first 45 hours of the holiday (Monday - Tuesday) could still be used as a regular weekly rest period for the last weeks work which finished at 23:00 Sunday.
Also if you returned to work on Monday morning or later after the holiday, the last 45 hours of the holiday would still count as a regular weekly rest period for the first week back at work after the holiday.
Likewise the holiday period, whilst counting as 48 hours for the working time regulations can still be used to pay back any compensation required for previous reduced weekly rest periods.
Lusk:
Thinking about it logically, if the drivers holiday was not recorded as 48 hours, then this would make the actual working time average plummet.
Yes it would which is precisely why it counts as 48 hours, the four weeks statutory holiday mentioned in article 13 RT(WT)R have to be neutral for the 48 hour average.
Lusk:
Also, why is a holiday period classed as 48 hours when a working week is generally 40 hours?
The four weeks statutory holiday per year mentioned in article 13 of the working time regulations cannot be used to reduce the weekly average, as the allowed average is 48 hours the weeks holiday is counted as 48 hours in order to be neutral in the calculation of the average.
In other words the statutory holiday can neither increase nor decrease the average time worked over the reference period.
The same applies to sick leave and maternity/paternity leave, it has to remain neutral so counts as 48 hours for a full weeks leave as long as the full weeks leave falls between 00:00 Monday to 24:00 Sunday.
edit: I should probably add that individual days holiday ec’t count as 8 hours towards the 48 hour average.
Five days holiday that do not all fall into the fixed week Monday to Sunday, such as Friday to Tuesday, count as five individual days of eight hours ie, 40 hours towards the 48 hour average.
The EU tacho regs is one set of rules
The RTD is a separate set of rules
Both sets of rules run side by side
Each set of rules must be taken separately
Q1 - has driver complied with EU tacho rules?
Q2 - has driver complied with RTD rules?
If yes to both then all is OK
Trying to do both sets of rules at exactly the same time in the brain is likely to get the driver confused
Tachograph, thank you for your response…the penny may have dropped!
Taking it one stage further in relation to night time working and a workforce collective agreement. I presume that whilst it is possible for the workforce to opt out of the night working limit of ten hours, the same is not true of the 48 hour average working week?
Lusk:
Taking it one stage further in relation to night time working and a workforce collective agreement. I presume that whilst it is possible for the workforce to opt out of the night working limit of ten hours, the same is not true of the 48 hour average working week?
Correct
Lusk:
Tachograph, thank you for your response…the penny may have dropped!Taking it one stage further in relation to night time working and a workforce collective agreement. I presume that whilst it is possible for the workforce to opt out of the night working limit of ten hours, the same is not true of the 48 hour average working week?
Your assumption is correct, mobile workers cannot opt out of the average 48 hour week.
People who work to the normal WTD such as warehouse or shop staff can opt out of the average 48 hour week, but we can’t opt out of the “mobile workers working time regulations” average 48 hour week.
It’s strange really that if you drive to domestic regulations you can opt out of the 48 hour week, but if you driver to EU regulations you can’t.
As usual, some great advice on here 
Sorry, been thinking… 
What happens when for example you get the situation whereby a person does not come under the regs all the time. Taking a breakdown vehicle as an example, for some weeks a driver has managed to keep inside the prescribed 100km radius and is therefore working under Domestic rules but for some weeks he goes outside of the 100km radius which means that he comes under EU rules. How do you go about working out the average hours here?
Lusk:
Sorry, been thinking…What happens when for example you get the situation whereby a person does not come under the regs all the time. Taking a breakdown vehicle as an example, for some weeks a driver has managed to keep inside the prescribed 100km radius and is therefore working under Domestic rules but for some weeks he goes outside of the 100km radius which means that he comes under EU rules. How do you go about working out the average hours here?
domestic rules are under the normal WTD not the RTD and the two do not get added together so it would reduce the average for the RTD
Lusk:
Sorry, been thinking…
I did that once and my brain started to hurt so I stopped doing it 
Lusk:
What happens when for example you get the situation whereby a person does not come under the regs all the time. Taking a breakdown vehicle as an example, for some weeks a driver has managed to keep inside the prescribed 100km radius and is therefore working under Domestic rules but for some weeks he goes outside of the 100km radius which means that he comes under EU rules. How do you go about working out the average hours here?
As has been said if the driver is completely out of scope of EU regulations so not regarded as a mobile worker for the working time regulations the time doesn’t count towards the 48 hour average.
Only the time spent working as a mobile worker as described in the RT(WT)R 2005, ie in-scope of EU regulations, count towards the average 48 hour week.
Haha Tacho
OK, so really then, if a driver does say four days under domestic and then one day under EU (as he’s gone outside the 100km radius), are you saying that because he is now under EU for all this week, this time will go towards the 48 average?
Lusk:
if a driver does say four days under domestic and then one day under EU (as he’s gone outside the 100km radius), are you saying that because he is now under EU for all this week, this time will go towards the 48 average?
You wouldn’t be in-scope of EU regulations all week, the domestic driving is counted as other work for EU regulations but does not bring you fully in-scope of EU regulations.
Only the time spent in-scope of EU regulations would count towards the average 48 hour week for mobile workers.
However I believe that the work in-scope of EU regulations would probably count towards the average 48 hour week for the working time Regulations 1998, but that can be opted out of anyway.
<I’ll try to remember to check that one day>
Lusk:
… if a driver does say four days under domestic and then one day under EU (as he’s gone outside the 100km radius), are you saying that because he is now under EU for all this week, this time will go towards the 48 average?
Think this way …
Domestic is WTD
EU regs is RTD
The two are not added to each other
That’s the WTD/RTD stuff sorted
Now to the tacho regs …
Domestic counts as other work for the EU tacho regs
You are still mixing up the Working time rules with the Tacho rules - they must be considered seperately
Thanks guys for your answers, need to have a think.