If travelling from base location as a passenger in a car or van belonging to the company and used as part of that company’s business for the purpose of transporting drivers from A to B, to take over a HGV from another driver, is this part of your duty time and should it be recorded as O/W or POA?
Sometimes the driver of the said company vehicle will also be transporting himself from A to B and thus be driving the vehicle, does this driving need to be taken into consideration when added to the driving of the HGV with regard to 4.5 hours driving time?
shullbit:
If travelling from base location as a passenger in a car or van belonging to the company and used as part of that company’s business for the purpose of transporting drivers from A to B, is this part of your duty time and should it be recorded as O/W or POA?
Sometimes the driver of the said company vehicle will also be transporting himself from A to B and thus be driving the vehicle, does this driving need to be taken into consideration when added to the driving of the HGV with regard to 4.5 hours driving time?
Duty for both. (ed 
sorry its called Other Work, now) Driving a car or light van is not driving time as regards LGVs and tacho rules. (It doesnt count as part of 4hr30)
“If a driver had to travel for 1 hour by car, on public transport or as a passenger, to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not their home or normal operating base then this time would count as other work. Similarly, if they had to travel back by car, on public transport or as a passenger, from a location that was not their normal operating base, this would count as other work.” gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … vers-hours
Franglais:
shullbit:
If travelling from base location as a passenger in a car or van belonging to the company and used as part of that company’s business for the purpose of transporting drivers from A to B, is this part of your duty time and should it be recorded as O/W or POA?
Sometimes the driver of the said company vehicle will also be transporting himself from A to B and thus be driving the vehicle, does this driving need to be taken into consideration when added to the driving of the HGV with regard to 4.5 hours driving time?Duty for both. (ed
s called Other Work, now) Driving a car or light van is not driving time as regards LGVs and tacho rules. (It doesnt count as part of 4hr30)“If a driver had to travel for 1 hour by car, on public transport or as a passenger, to pick up a vehicle from a location that was not their home or normal operating base then this time would count as other work. Similarly, if they had to travel back by car, on public transport or as a passenger, from a location that was not their normal operating base, this would count as other work.” gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … vers-hours
That is a very informative quote, thank you.
Agreed, but put more simply:
Travelling to or from home and your regular yard - that’s Rest time
Any travelling to or from home to any other location, it’s Other Work, and it’s counted.
This is why (legally) if you hit your 15 hours, your company can’t pick you up to bring you home in another vehicle, because that’s still you “at work”.
(Yes I’m ignoring what happens in the real world)
Also, this is why people doing client-based work, like an External TM, need to factor their travelling times in when they’re asking the TC to approve them for another client, it all has to fit in to the 48 hour average working week.
I’m not sure how guys doing Trade Plate collections and deliveries are supposed to make their hours legal 
I’d wager the Tories will want to scrap WTD/RTD in the foreseeable future, to help “growth” 
The latest constant buzzword
Zac_A:
Agreed, but put more simply:
Travelling to or from home and your regular yard - that’s Rest time
Any travelling to or from home to any other location, it’s Other Work, and it’s counted.This is why (legally) if you hit your 15 hours, your company can’t pick you up to bring you home in another vehicle, because that’s still you “at work”.
(Yes I’m ignoring what happens in the real world)Also, this is why people doing client-based work, like an External TM, need to factor their travelling times in when they’re asking the TC to approve them for another client, it all has to fit in to the 48 hour average working week.
I’m not sure how guys doing Trade Plate collections and deliveries are supposed to make their hours legal
I’d wager the Tories will want to scrap WTD/RTD in the foreseeable future, to help “growth”
Put more simply? You just complicated it by bringing ‘‘home’’ int the equation lol, only joking. To complicate it even more, what about if you are at home getting paid for being on call and then get called out, then travelling from home to work base would be other work wouldn’t it?
I agree with you about the tories.
Good point about being “on call”, it’s hardly the same as being on “Rest”, I confess that situation is one I’m not clear on so I’ll defer to someone with experience.
My personal view would be that as it’s not regular working hours, it should surely be Other Work, even though you’re going to your regular base.
Surely travelling passenger can be counted as poa or even break? if card is in a truck in slot 2 and you are in the passenger seat the first 45mins of poa counts as a break, why not travelling passenger in a car or even public transport?
Fuzrat:
Surely travelling passenger can be counted as poa or even break? if card is in a truck in slot 2 and you are in the passenger seat the first 45mins of poa counts as a break, why not travelling passenger in a car or even public transport?
Because in the link posted by Franglais above, the government state that they require you to record it as other work, so for this reason you wouldn’t be allowed to record it as POA.
shullbit:
Fuzrat:
Surely travelling passenger can be counted as poa or even break? if card is in a truck in slot 2 and you are in the passenger seat the first 45mins of poa counts as a break, why not travelling passenger in a car or even public transport?Because in the link posted by Franglais above, the government state that they require you to record it as other work, so for this reason you wouldn’t be allowed to record it as POA.
It can be a break or POA providing you’re doing no work related activities. Remember you can take a break in a moving vehicle- It doesn’t mean that vehicle has to be a truck. It can be a car, van, train etc etc.
In my old job we had to hop trains to meet up with vehicles. There was never an issue using POA as you knew before hand hoe long it should take. The firm were that ■■■■ about what your manual entry said you had to even include the five minutes walking time to the train station as other work resulting in quite a lengthy manual entry when the vehicle turned up.
One thing to watch is if you’re passenger at the start of the day in a car or van or train or whatever, and you do record it as break remember that if you’ve not yet driven a vehicle with a tacho on that day, that break will not count towards your driving break. So grabbing a 15min in a car on the way doesn’t mean you need a 30 on the truck - you will still need a 45min break under EU rules.
There was a big case of precedent in all this involving Skills coaches which is worth a Google if you can be bothered. If not basically they got bubbled driving from Nortingham to Dover in a car to take off a coach coming over on the ferry, the driver coming off would end his card there and drive home in the car not showing any further work, likewise the driver taking over would ‘start’ his shift in Dover and not account for the multiple hours travelling from Nottingham first.
Fuzrat:
Surely travelling passenger can be counted as poa or even break? if card is in a truck in slot 2 and you are in the passenger seat the first 45mins of poa counts as a break, why not travelling passenger in a car or even public transport?
It depends which situation we’re talking about, but it all comes down to the definitions in the regulations and generally the answer is going to be no.
POA
To count as a period of availability a HGV driver must be on call to start work or resume driving on request. So, by that definition, being at home on call could be POA, if it weren’t for the line that says “The driver should know the period and the duration of the period in advance, either before departure or before the start of the period in question.” So that doesn’t fit our situation
Breaks are defined as an interruption to work, but you will be going back to work. So if we’d hit the 15 hours mark that wouldn’t be applicable, and if we’re driving to or from work it’s clearly working and not being on a break.
If we’re not going back to work (ie the 15 hours situation) then it would have to be Rest, which is defined as being able to freely dispose of your time, which if you’re a passenger in a moving vehicle, you can’t. Hence in double-manning/team driving the vehicle must be stopped for either driver to be able to claim Rest
toonsy:
shullbit:
Fuzrat:
Surely travelling passenger can be counted as poa or even break? if card is in a truck in slot 2 and you are in the passenger seat the first 45mins of poa counts as a break, why not travelling passenger in a car or even public transport?Because in the link posted by Franglais above, the government state that they require you to record it as other work, so for this reason you wouldn’t be allowed to record it as POA.
It can be a break or POA providing you’re doing no work related activities. Remember you can take a break in a moving vehicle- It doesn’t mean that vehicle has to be a truck. It can be a car, van, train etc etc.
In my old job we had to hop trains to meet up with vehicles. There was never an issue using POA as you knew before hand hoe long it should take. The firm were that ■■■■ about what your manual entry said you had to even include the five minutes walking time to the train station as other work resulting in quite a lengthy manual entry when the vehicle turned up.
One thing to watch is if you’re passenger at the start of the day in a car or van or train or whatever, and you do record it as break remember that if you’ve not yet driven a vehicle with a tacho on that day, that break will not count towards your driving break. So grabbing a 15min in a car on the way doesn’t mean you need a 30 on the truck - you will still need a 45min break under EU rules.
There was a big case of precedent in all this involving Skills coaches which is worth a Google if you can be bothered. If not basically they got bubbled driving from Nortingham to Dover in a car to take off a coach coming over on the ferry, the driver coming off would end his card there and drive home in the car not showing any further work, likewise the driver taking over would ‘start’ his shift in Dover and not account for the multiple hours travelling from Nottingham first.
Read the regulations in Franglais link, law says other work, its clearly explained and easy to understand, this is the information I will be using going forward.
Yes if you look at that very specific one regulation and take that very one regulation at its word and ONLY that piece of the legislation.
But there are other parts of law in there that also apply - not just that one part. Bits like the taking of breaks, which can be taken in a moving vehicle providing no work is undertaken or POA where the amount must be known in advance. Those parts of law arent suddenly erased. A shuttle car is still a moving vehicle, and if youre not driving it youre undertaking no work. A train has a timetable so you know in advance how long the period will be.
When I was doing this it was heading out abroad running scheduled coach trips and forever getting stopped because of the nature of the job (ie, we could be carrying anyone versus a coach holiday who would have the same group for a week or whatever). There was never an issue with us doing this when checked by either (then) VOSA or any other roadside checks including Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Holland, France etc.
toonsy:
Yes if you look at that very specific one regulation and take that very one regulation at its word and ONLY that piece of the legislation.But there are other parts of law in there that also apply - not just that one part. Bits like the taking of breaks, which can be taken in a moving vehicle providing no work is undertaken or POA where the amount must be known in advance. Those parts of law arent suddenly erased. A shuttle car is still a moving vehicle, and if youre not driving it youre undertaking no work. A train has a timetable so you know in advance how long the period will be.
When I was doing this it was heading out abroad running scheduled coach trips and forever getting stopped because of the nature of the job (ie, we could be carrying anyone versus a coach holiday who would have the same group for a week or whatever). There was never an issue with us doing this when checked by either (then) VOSA or any other roadside checks including Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Holland, France etc.
As I understand it, the rule regarding taking a break in a moving vehicle refers to a vehicle with a tachograph that is running under multi manning rules, I know you have your opinion, but why do some people continue to disagree that a piece of legislation is wrong when they are presented with the ACTUAL facts in black and white from the actual people who make the rules? Opinions vs Facts = Facts wins.
shullbit:
toonsy:
Yes if you look at that very specific one regulation and take that very one regulation at its word and ONLY that piece of the legislation.But there are other parts of law in there that also apply - not just that one part. Bits like the taking of breaks, which can be taken in a moving vehicle providing no work is undertaken or POA where the amount must be known in advance. Those parts of law arent suddenly erased. A shuttle car is still a moving vehicle, and if youre not driving it youre undertaking no work. A train has a timetable so you know in advance how long the period will be.
When I was doing this it was heading out abroad running scheduled coach trips and forever getting stopped because of the nature of the job (ie, we could be carrying anyone versus a coach holiday who would have the same group for a week or whatever). There was never an issue with us doing this when checked by either (then) VOSA or any other roadside checks including Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Holland, France etc.
As I understand it, the rule regarding taking a break in a moving vehicle refers to a vehicle with a tachograph that is running under multi manning rules, I know you have your opinion, but why do some people continue to disagree that a piece of legislation is wrong when they are presented with the ACTUAL facts in black and white from the actual people who make the rules? Opinions vs Facts = Facts wins.
Maybe because ‘people’ have actual experience of working using the regulations so may have some working knowledge and real world experience of using them that may be of benefit to someone creating a thread and asking about it?
All rules work in conjunction with one another. Just because it’s written one way in one place it doesn’t replace fundamental other pieces of the legislation - those being that you can take a break in a moving vehicle providing no work is undertaken and you can class it as POA as you’re not doing work, but you’re at work, and you know how long it’s going to take.
Obviously as stated if you’re driving the car its other work and the reality is that much if any of this depends on the car journey length, for instance is it really worth declaring ten mins POA if you’re a passenger? No you might aswell call it other work because its easier and has little impact on your hours. Three plus hours to Dover in a car as a passenger, showing that as other work has just screwed your day over.
Remember the rules are not as black and white as you’re thinking. How many times do you hear someone say they can work a 15hr day? There’s absolutely nothing in the regs about how long anyone can work - only how long they must rest.
And I did say above that any break you take as passenger in a car won’t count towards EU driving breaks. Unless you’ve already got some EU driving on your card for that day. And as for breaks under multi manning, go into Tibshelf services and you’ll likely see cars/vans belonging to coach companies waiting around. You’ll see a driver jump on and the coach will continue. That friver will then get off at Watford Gap. They’re called jump drivers. They aren’t under multi manning, they just drive while the other guy sits on the crew seat having a break.
Ultimately I don’t really care what you do. If you wish to interpret the regs in your way it’s no skin off my nose. I’m just trying to convey that there’s also other ways depending on circumstances that can, have and do get used.
toonsy:
shullbit:
toonsy:
Yes if you look at that very specific one regulation and take that very one regulation at its word and ONLY that piece of the legislation.But there are other parts of law in there that also apply - not just that one part. Bits like the taking of breaks, which can be taken in a moving vehicle providing no work is undertaken or POA where the amount must be known in advance. Those parts of law arent suddenly erased. A shuttle car is still a moving vehicle, and if youre not driving it youre undertaking no work. A train has a timetable so you know in advance how long the period will be.
When I was doing this it was heading out abroad running scheduled coach trips and forever getting stopped because of the nature of the job (ie, we could be carrying anyone versus a coach holiday who would have the same group for a week or whatever). There was never an issue with us doing this when checked by either (then) VOSA or any other roadside checks including Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Holland, France etc.
As I understand it, the rule regarding taking a break in a moving vehicle refers to a vehicle with a tachograph that is running under multi manning rules, I know you have your opinion, but why do some people continue to disagree that a piece of legislation is wrong when they are presented with the ACTUAL facts in black and white from the actual people who make the rules? Opinions vs Facts = Facts wins.
Maybe because ‘people’ have actual experience of working using the regulations so may have some working knowledge and real world experience of using them that may be of benefit to someone creating a thread and asking about it?
All rules work in conjunction with one another. Just because it’s written one way in one place it doesn’t replace fundamental other pieces of the legislation - those being that you can take a break in a moving vehicle providing no work is undertaken and you can class it as POA as you’re not doing work, but you’re at work, and you know how long it’s going to take.
Obviously as stated if you’re driving the car its other work and the reality is that much if any of this depends on the car journey length, for instance is it really worth declaring ten mins POA if you’re a passenger? No you might aswell call it other work because its easier and has little impact on your hours. Three plus hours to Dover in a car as a passenger, showing that as other work has just screwed your day over.
Remember the rules are not as black and white as you’re thinking. How many times do you hear someone say they can work a 15hr day? There’s absolutely nothing in the regs about how long anyone can work - only how long they must rest.
And I did say above that any break you take as passenger in a car won’t count towards EU driving breaks. Unless you’ve already got some EU driving on your card for that day. And as for breaks under multi manning, go into Tibshelf services and you’ll likely see cars/vans belonging to coach companies waiting around. You’ll see a driver jump on and the coach will continue. That friver will then get off at Watford Gap. They’re called jump drivers. They aren’t under multi manning, they just drive while the other guy sits on the crew seat having a break.
Ultimately I don’t really care what you do. If you wish to interpret the regs in your way it’s no skin off my nose. I’m just trying to convey that there’s also other ways depending on circumstances that can, have and do get used.
Grey area Vs black and white