Zetorpilot:
I’m with limeyphil on this one- the fewer rules the better.
What we have at the moment is a system of rules that are very simple up until the point where you have to take reality into consideration: ferry timetables, factory working hours, customers that don’t finish work until 6pm, people that are out in the morning, distances between various towns etc etc etc. Then it can get complicated.
Also it’s slightly bizarre that multi-drop van work, rock and roll tours, household removals, and trunking tomatoes from Portugal to Helsinki all have to work to the same rules when the work is so very different.
And also, people are very different in how they like to work. Forcing people to work to what to them may be a very un-natural rhythm could well have safety implications.
Do there have to be rules? The argument in favour is usually that they stop bosses taking the zb. Indeed, and I can’t pretend that I don’t think there’s some truth in this. One thing that might be interesting to talk about though is a simple mileage limit - say 700km in 24h, and how you do it, and when you take your breaks is entirely up to the driver. I’m not saying that’s what I think it should be, I’m just presenting it as an idea for discussion…
I agree. I like how it currently is in Canada. You have a total spread over of 14 hours, extendable up to 16 hours if you take up to 2 hours off during your shift in 30 minute or more increments and a total driving alloweance per day of 13 hours within that shift. What you do inside of that time is totally up to you, you dont have to participate in this silly stop-start-stop-start-worry-worry-worry nonsense that is the case in Europe.
Too many rules and regs, one of the reasons I hung up my keys in the UK.
I recently ran from Fargo ND to Walsh AB, flat out all the way, with an oversize load… 740 miles/1200ks all legal, which would have been impossible in Europe!
mickfly:
Too many rules and regs, one of the reasons I hung up my keys in the UK.
I recently ran from Fargo ND to Walsh AB, flat out all the way, with an oversize load… 740 miles/1200ks all legal, which would have been impossible in Europe!
The rules are way too complex in the EU.
Neither country is perfect but the more relaxed way of doing things over here (until electronic logs come in) is far preferable in my opinion.
I think I would actually prefere the UK over north America if it were not for the insane amount of rules and regulations that govern every part of your working life in Europe.
haribo4000:
Also POA why does this not count as a break in UK?
It must be the only EU law that the UK doesnt partake in lol
POA shouldn’t count as break in any EU country, in fact the EU Directive 2002/15/EC specifically say that POA is not break time
Ok, if this is the case, then why does your driving time still reset after 45 mins on POA■■?
The digital tachograph counting POA as beak is actually a fault in the tachograph, you should be aware that even though the tachograph will count 45 minutes of POA as break it’s not break and could lead to you getting infringements.
Do 2 hours driving then 45 minutes POA and the tachograph will reset the driving time but if you now do another 4½ hours driving before having a break as the tachograph will let you and you can expect an infringement or if you get stopped by VOSA you can expect a fine.
As robinhood_1984 says the digital tachograph was introduced before the regulations had finished changing and it wasn’t just the WTD that was still changing.
The digital tachograph was made compulsory for new vehicles in 2006 and yet the final changes to the drivers hours regulations took place in January 2008.
our government, EU ministers have said we need to work ourselves out of recession. words to this effect were used by angelina merkel when she called the greeks, and spanish lazy.
well some of us want to work, and earn extra money. we should be allowed to just get on and graft. why do we need o’licences? that’s just more red tape. just buy a truck, and run it.
The Canadian way sounds far too simple 14 hour day, 13 of which can be driving with an hours break for good measure.
Better to have 2 sets of rules that loads of people don’t understand, tachos which don’t work properly and count poa as break but then reset your drive time but ahh silly driver, it’s a trap! Some of your day spent bricking it about making a mistake with the stupid buttons or getting your sums wrong and being viewed as a leper.
Thing is with Euros and Brits, they like changing things in their big plush offices to justify their jobs and to get promotion and good press, Oh look at us, we’re changing the rules to make things safer again, aren’t we great and deserving of our salary or re-election.
Over here in Australia, I have just done a Night trunk (linehaul run) as they call it from Green Acre NSW to Macksville NSW 1100 KM round trip and in that time I had 45 min break, you dont have to declare 1st 100km from base 200km in Queensland this is on basic driving hours they have Standard and Advanced hours. I did 12 hours that was way to much but I was doing 104kmph go to hell if they think I will do a 15 hour driving shift!! oh and it is a log book no tacho no Digi card you can fill it out how you want sooner they get tachos like Uk the better!!
haribo4000:
I personally, was under the impression that after 4.5 hrs driving you had to have a 45 minute break before driving commences again. Nowhere does it state that you must not undertake any other duties before having a break. Therefore you could: start shift, drive 4.5 hrs, other duties 1 hrs, break 15 mins, other duties 2 hrs, break 30 mins, drive 4.5 hour, finish shift
Please correct me if im wrong, but I thought that would be completely within the rules.
The regulations state that “After a driving period of four and a half hours a driver shall take an uninterrupted break of not less than 45 minutes, unless he takes a rest period”.
The statement that you shall take a break after 4½ hours driving sort of negates any need to mention that you shouldn’t undertake any other duties, the regulation doesn’t say take a break unless you’re going to do some other work it says take a break unless you’re starting a rest period, in other words if you’re not starting a rest period take a break.
VOSAs interpretation of the regulation is “After a driving period of no more than 4.5 hours, a driver must immediately take a break of at least 45 minutes unless he takes a rest period”.
Sorry but I don’t see that the example you’ve given complies with the regulations
How often are you ever going to drive bang on 4hrs 30 and then do other work anyway? Rarely if ever at all, so 4hrs 29 and 1hr 30 other work, followed by a 15 min break would be fine?
Don’t see the problem myself.
Apart from the fact when you jump back in and drive off you have to pull over for another 30 mins break after only one minute! You may as well have a 45, chances are if you have driven 4hrs 29 mins your not at your destination (unless your timing is perfect!) your probably in a services or lay by and you may as well have the 45.
haribo4000:
Also POA why does this not count as a break in UK?
It must be the only EU law that the UK doesnt partake in lol
POA shouldn’t count as break in any EU country, in fact the EU Directive 2002/15/EC specifically say that POA is not break time
Ok, if this is the case, then why does your driving time still reset after 45 mins on POA■■?
Europeans use the square symbol as their break, we use it as ( illegal P.O.A! ) we use bed as 45 min break! Try doing that on the continent! They use bed only to record GOING TO BED! That’s why it resets after 45 mins!
WTD break is 30 mins after 6hrs UNLESS your driving time is near or on 4 and a half hours BUT if you intend to work in-between 6 and 9 hours WTD then you would need 45 mins instead of 30 mins! The rules are a joke but you can manipupate to help you the driver by putting it on illegal POA most of the day as it extends/ doesn’t count to your WTD as long as you don’t drive over your first 4.5hrs! IMHO too much bullcarp, speed everything back up ( more productivity ) and let’s get earning more dosh!
ive done distance RDC work, tbh I was knackered all of the time and doing very little physical work… so i took a local job on class 2 multi drop mostly handball deliveries and driving less then 3 hours most days, I was less tired doing this sort of work then distance… i guess its down to each person in some way but the pressure but on drivers cos the load has to get there ect is getting out of hand, so bollox to timed deliveries it gets there when it gets there! (within reason)
haribo4000:
Also POA why does this not count as a break in UK?
It must be the only EU law that the UK doesnt partake in lol
POA shouldn’t count as break in any EU country, in fact the EU Directive 2002/15/EC specifically say that POA is not break time
Ok, if this is the case, then why does your driving time still reset after 45 mins on POA■■?
Europeans use the square symbol as their break, we use it as ( illegal P.O.A! ) we use bed as 45 min break! Try doing that on the continent! They use bed only to record GOING TO BED! That’s why it resets after 45 mins!
WTD break is 30 mins after 6hrs UNLESS your driving time is near or on 4 and a half hours BUT if you intend to work in-between 6 and 9 hours WTD then you would need 45 mins instead of 30 mins! The rules are a joke but you can manipupate to help you the driver by putting it on illegal POA most of the day as it extends/ doesn’t count to your WTD as long as you don’t drive over your first 4.5hrs! IMHO too much bullcarp, speed everything back up ( more productivity ) and let’s get earning more dosh!
Fatboy slimslow:
Europeans use the square symbol as their break, we use it as ( illegal P.O.A! ) we use bed as 45 min break! Try doing that on the continent! They use bed only to record GOING TO BED! That’s why it resets after 45 mins!
I’ve no idea what tachograph mode the European drivers use for break but COUNCIL REGULATION (EEC) No 3821/85 clearly states that it should be the bed symbol, the same regulations clearly state that POA should be recorded by using the square sumbol.
I’m not going to try to justify POA but why is it illegal ?
Fatboy slimslow:
WTD break is 30 mins after 6hrs UNLESS your driving time is near or on 4 and a half hours BUT if you intend to work in-between 6 and 9 hours WTD then you would need 45 mins instead of 30 mins!
To comply with the RT(WT)R you need a break of 15 minutes before exceeding 6 hours working time, if your working time is more than 6 hours but not more than 9 hours you should have a break/breaks totalling no less than 30 minutes, you only need to have 45 minutes for the RT(WT)R if your working time exceeds 9 hours.
Europeans use the square symbol as their break, we use it as ( illegal P.O.A! ) we use bed as 45 min break! Try doing that on the continent! They use bed only to record GOING TO BED! That’s why it resets after 45 mins!
WTD break is 30 mins after 6hrs UNLESS your driving time is near or on 4 and a half hours BUT if you intend to work in-between 6 and 9 hours WTD then you would need 45 mins instead of 30 mins! The rules are a joke but you can manipupate to help you the driver by putting it on illegal POA most of the day as it extends/ doesn’t count to your WTD as long as you don’t drive over your first 4.5hrs! IMHO too much bullcarp, speed everything back up ( more productivity ) and let’s get earning more dosh!
what a load of bollox, whilst i dont agree with the dcpc you should def be forced to attend one ASAP
Fatboy slimslow:
IMHO too much bullcarp, speed everything back up ( more productivity ) and let’s get earning more dosh!
Yeh speed everything back up, and we can all do MORE than 15 hrs a day for around £7 an hour, why do we need breaks to slow us down, … Or maybe even better get rid of all the bullcrap you talk about, drop it down to a 13max with a living decent pay rate instead of drivers having to absorb and subsidise the ridiculous running costs dictated by crap rates to the haulier.
Europeans use the square symbol as their break, we use it as ( illegal P.O.A! ) we use bed as 45 min break! Try doing that on the continent! They use bed only to record GOING TO BED! That’s why it resets after 45 mins!
WTD break is 30 mins after 6hrs UNLESS your driving time is near or on 4 and a half hours BUT if you intend to work in-between 6 and 9 hours WTD then you would need 45 mins instead of 30 mins! The rules are a joke but you can manipupate to help you the driver by putting it on illegal POA most of the day as it extends/ doesn’t count to your WTD as long as you don’t drive over your first 4.5hrs! IMHO too much bullcarp, speed everything back up ( more productivity ) and let’s get earning more dosh!
what a load of bollox, whilst i dont agree with the dcpc you should def be forced to attend one ASAP
Agreed the slim-one is lacking in something. Fish oil is good for the brain and anaemia.
But my take on the 561/2006 rules are that they work well, they are flexible and suit most drivers and operations well
Europeans use the square symbol as their break, we use it as ( illegal P.O.A! ) we use bed as 45 min break! Try doing that on the continent! They use bed only to record GOING TO BED! That’s why it resets after 45 mins!
WTD break is 30 mins after 6hrs UNLESS your driving time is near or on 4 and a half hours BUT if you intend to work in-between 6 and 9 hours WTD then you would need 45 mins instead of 30 mins! The rules are a joke but you can manipupate to help you the driver by putting it on illegal POA most of the day as it extends/ doesn’t count to your WTD as long as you don’t drive over your first 4.5hrs! IMHO too much bullcarp, speed everything back up ( more productivity ) and let’s get earning more dosh!
what a load of bollox, whilst i dont agree with the dcpc you should def be forced to attend one ASAP
Done three already pal! Think of split daily rest first part 15 mins second part must be minimum thirty mins! Then there’s three hour split daily rest nine off counts as your eleven off! alot of confusion comes about with your first fifteen min break!
I’m doing fine me pal as I am as I’ve said before I manipulate the hours to suit me! POA stands for ( well what the mrs calls it ) pull over ■■■■■■■■! It’s not hard WE make it hard for ourselves and yes we should be paid lots more for what we do! Me learn the rules? I don’t think so!
Most of the time, a driver doing a 15 hour day will spend a good deal of it resting - at least 5 hours of it has to be rest or other work with 1½ hours minimum rest, but in my experience it’s usually a lot more. Frequently more rest than driving.
My point is that two 15 hour days delivering to RDCs, with a night in the cab between them, is less tiring than two 8 hour days doing multi drop round Birminghamwith a 1 hour commute.
As was said above - it is impossible to write a set of rules that satifies all circumstances. The idea that drivers (and their bosses) could be left to make their own rules is ludicrous.
Santa:
Most of the time, a driver doing a 15 hour day will spend a good deal of it resting - at least 5 hours of it has to be rest or other work with 1½ hours minimum rest, but in my experience it’s usually a lot more. Frequently more rest than driving.
My point is that two 15 hour days delivering to RDCs, with a night in the cab between them, is less tiring than two 8 hour days doing multi drop round Birminghamwith a 1 hour commute.
As was said above - it is impossible to write a set of rules that satifies all circumstances. The idea that drivers (and their bosses) could be left to make their own rules is ludicrous.
I agree!
In my opinion if you try to make things simpler you will close doors for people. Businesses have made it work for them and that’s the good thing about it, you can work a variety of different hours.
Fatboy slimslow:
Done three already pal! Think of split daily rest first part 15 mins second part must be minimum thirty mins! Then there’s three hour split daily rest nine off counts as your eleven off! alot of confusion comes about with your first fifteen min break!
I’m doing fine me pal as I am as I’ve said before I manipulate the hours to suit me! POA stands for ( well what the mrs calls it ) pull over [zb]! It’s not hard WE make it hard for ourselves and yes we should be paid lots more for what we do! Me learn the rules? I don’t think so!
Did you pay for your first three Pal?
Your first statement is wrong in that you are not splitting a daily rest. You are simply taking a 45 minute break in two parts. of which you mention the first part must be a 15 + 30 or 45 minute break.
Your next statement says that you take 3 hours plus nine later counts as 11 off.
