Operating a british truck from Eastern Europe

[simon]

routier:

Simon:

routier:

orys:
I am glad then that we explained some thing to each other…

To sum it up I try to put it shortly: you (as british haulage in general) can’t do much about influx of eastern european trucks, but you can do a lot to be more efficient. And then you can compete better with EE. …

well theres Issue No 1 right there…Fuel Cost.

No 2 Issue Wages…

No 3 Issue Cost of Living…

So Orys tell me… how do you compete.?

Theres tonnes of stories about all Eastern Europeans coming to the West

I was told about an EE Lorry pullin a Fridge for

In was told that I had to take a 30 minute break before 6 hours of work was done on a hours and tacho course. This course was done as a result of having to comply with DCPC rules and this is what the JAUPT approved trainer on the course told us.
Sound familiar?
It doesn’t make it true though.

Well I dont doubt a member of my own family who saw the vehicle in Dover and has contacts at the aforesaid company so YES it does make it true.

Correct me otherwise Simon.

Aye, right then.

[routier]

Simon:

routier:

Simon:

routier:

orys:
I am glad then that we explained some thing to each other…

To sum it up I try to put it shortly: you (as british haulage in general) can’t do much about influx of eastern european trucks, but you can do a lot to be more efficient. And then you can compete better with EE. …

well theres Issue No 1 right there…Fuel Cost.

No 2 Issue Wages…

No 3 Issue Cost of Living…

So Orys tell me… how do you compete.?

Theres tonnes of stories about all Eastern Europeans coming to the West

I was told about an EE Lorry pullin a Fridge for

In was told that I had to take a 30 minute break before 6 hours of work was done on a hours and tacho course. This course was done as a result of having to comply with DCPC rules and this is what the JAUPT approved trainer on the course told us.
Sound familiar?
It doesn’t make it true though.

Well I dont doubt a member of my own family who saw the vehicle in Dover and has contacts at the aforesaid company so YES it does make it true.

Correct me otherwise Simon.

Aye, right then.

Shouldn’t be too quick in casting your aspersions Simon, does that sound familiar?

[orys]

I can answer your issues when it comes to Poland.

routier:
well theres Issue No 1 right there…Fuel Cost.

Diesel in Poland is now just 5-8% cheaper than in Germany… I’ve been there 2 weeks ago and I was fueling for over 5.35zÅ‚, which is about 1.10 pounds per litre… about 6 years ago, when I went first time to Poland with my British car I could buy nearly 2 litres for the price of fuel in Glasgow, nowadays, as you can see the difference is much smaller…

The times when you had half price fuel back there are long gone… As you can see here:

the price of fuel in Poland and Baltic States is the same as in Spain, I can’t see you complaining about Spanish hauliers running on cheap fuel…

(sorry I can’t find the prices map for 2012 in English, maybe it explains why still so many myths are around, if the newest I found was from 2007…)

And take into consideration one more thing: Poland still lacks motorways and majority of the traffic is going trough very busy single carriage roads, through towns and villages… That is reflected in fuel consumption…

No 2 Issue Wages…

Judging that I already met two Britons and one German who drove for Polish company, I take that the wages are attractive for them… Many times on this forum we discussed wages of 320-350 per week for a class 1 tramper… 350 pounds per week is about 7000 Polish Zloty per month… I know Polish truckers who earn more (and they have one week off in the month!). Usually the wages (with one week off!) circulate about 5000-6000 polish zloty per month, so its about 280-300 pounds every week they work. So I would say the wages are already on similar level (at least when it comes to truckers).

No 3 Issue Cost of Living…

Contrary to popular opinion, the costs of living in Eastern Europe is no longer so low. And I know what I say, as I just spend one month in Czech Republic. Some things are still cheaper (for example you still can have a beer in the pub for around a pound) but some are more expensive, for example clothes, electronics etc.

But we are discussing hauliers, not employers here. A Polish haulier, for example, is heavily taxed and he has to meet lot of beaurocracy… Just to give you an example: my friend just moved his company (on paper) from Poland to Germany, and instantly he can move one girl who was hired exclusively to deal with paperwork to other duties…

I would dare to say that running business in Poland is much more difficult than here. Just to give another example: I have my self employed business here, I deal with my paperwork myself. It takes me about 5 minutes after every job and maybe extra hour or two per year…

My friend runs exactly the same business in Poland, and he has to hire a bookkeeper part time!

And then there is that bit that makes making business in Poland: imagine: you moves some stuff for me, you send me an invoice, and you have to pay tax. Instantly. The taxing moment is not when I pay you, but when you issue an invoice. So you pay your tax and wait, I have 3 months to pay, but I can pay you in 6 months or never… And you paid your tax already…

So Orys tell me… how do you compete.?

Stop believeing and myths and look into the facts would be a good start…

The situation similar to Polish will be in Hungary, Czech Republic and Slovakia, as for my Estonian and Latvian friends I was speaking with, wages in Baltic States are still slightly lower… Bulgaria and Romania are different story, but we do have problem with them undercutting us as well, so I would say we are on the same boat here… Somehow though I don’t hear so much moaning about Romanians on Polish equivalent of trucknet.

Theres tonnes of stories about all Eastern Europeans coming to the West , in particular UK / Ireland to claim off the state and send it back home… even gettin weekly flights here to sign on and then head back… joke!

That’s what they are - stories. A kind of MMTM. I had a hard car accident (blamed by British driver) after 23 months of heavy working and paying taxes in UK and guess what I got? Nothing. No incapacity, no jobseekers, not even a returnable crisis loan… Nobody cared that I lived in this country nearly 2 years and due to my injuries I am unable to work…

There are also the EE who spend time working here at the expense of others …and send the money back home…

Can you explain what do you mean by “working at the expense of others”?

I was told about an EE Lorry pullin a Fridge for Fastcool from Kent… an Atego regeistered from Bulgaria…whole family was in the truck. Travellin Knackers in a HGV doin the work for fraction of the cost a normal UK subbie would do it fr… puttin some hard workin UK based haulier probably outta business.

Hello, there was discussion some time ago when OP was asking if he need permanent address to become OD, as he wants to live in his lorry. So how is that: British people can do it, and Bulgarian people don’t?

So Orys, dont come on here spouting ye gob off sayin UK hauliers need to be more competitive when the vast majority of the Eastern Europeans come here with one purpose:To undercut every decent hard workin person and to rip every decent taxpayer off via one form or another.

Oh, yeah, nobody comes here to work and earn money. Everyone have just one aim: to ■■■■ off the Britons…

Now, please come back to earth and look around: EE are exactly the same people as you and everyone around you.

[harry_monk]

So Orys, could you explain why the south coast ports will be chock-full of eastern Europeans tonight, taking loads from the UK to Spain?

[orys]

Obviously they can offer better deal?

[harry_monk]

orys:
Obviously they can offer better deal?

Yes, a deal whereby they pay their drivers lower wages, keep them away for months at a time and ignore eu hours rules which state that only reduced rest periods can be taken in a vehicle. The last eastern European driver I spoke to, a Lithuanian whose load I transhipped at Dover after he had been given a PG9, had been away for three months, and shrugged his shoulders when I asked him when he next expected to see home.

I doubt that many traders in any industry could be able to compete with rivals who cut costs by operating illegally.

[orys]

Harry Monk:

orys:
Obviously they can offer better deal?

Yes, a deal whereby they pay their drivers lower wages, keep them away for months at a time and ignore eu hours rules which state that only reduced rest periods can be taken in a vehicle. The last eastern European driver I spoke to, a Lithuanian whose load I transhipped at Dover after he had been given a PG9, had been away for three months, and shrugged his shoulders when I asked him when he next expected to see home.

I doubt that many traders in any industry could be able to compete with rivals who cut costs by operating illegally.

It’s really fascinating… You know, for obvious reasons, I speak with much more Polish truckers than you, I am also on a Polish equivalent of trucknet and from what I see, the things you describe here as norm are marginal… Isn’t it simple because you see what you want to see?

Btw: Cheating on hours is no longer a good idea, you know with German and Polish MAUT the inspection can check your travel times on-line without looking into your tacho…

As for eu rules, some time ago it turned out that the biggest offenders in EU are Belgians, I somehow can’t see you complaining about Belgian hauliers…

We can go on like that for hours and hours (as usuall) and until you will accept the facts I am talking about, we got to nowhere.

And the facts are: Yes, Eastern Europeans are still cheaper, but not as much cheaper as you portray… Just in my area: we are charging a pound per mile, a company I know from Poland running sprinter class vans charge 70 eurocents per km, that will make a bit over Euro per mile… That makes a difference of cents…

And even if my boss can come down with rates, if I was customer had a choice at the same price, do you know who I would pick to move my stuff? Poles. Why? Because they have vans in better condition (clean and better looking, without dents or rust), because they have sleeping pods so I can assume that their drivers are rested better than ours who have to sleep across the seats…

You can’t do much about prices, but you no longer have to do as much, since the playing field becomes more and more level. But you can do a lot about appearance for example:
This is a 2008 van from my very own company:

And this is the first 2008 sprinter I found on a Polish equivalent of trucknet. Really, the first one, I wasn’t looking for anything special, just searched 2008 sprinter in pic section and took the newest post:

From what the guy writes it does about 140-150 000 km per year (so after four year it will have 600000, about the same as ours which at the moment of the picture has just below 400 000 miles) but his has night heater and everything…

And now imagine: you are a customer. You have this two vans turning on at your warehouse and you have a load to the other end of Europe. Which one do you choose?

Off course I am not trying to say that every British company is as ours, but I just use that example to show you that PRICE is not everything.

Btw: Harry, you just put your own truck on the road, didn’t you? So obviously you have to know, that IT IS possible for you to complete with Eastern Europeans…

[harry_monk]

orys:
We can go on like that for hours and hours (as usuall) and until you will accept the facts I am talking about, we got to nowhere.

Ok ok, I accept the facts you are talking about, you win, you have battered me into submission. Please don’t post any more on this thread, I just can’t take any more, you won, well done

[orys]

You just can’t accept the fact and admit, that you exagerate the differences between the costs of running truck from here and from there?

It’s always either your stories about “all EE are breaking the law, have no MOT and insurance” or your cheap sarcasm…

[harry_monk]

No, no no, I have accepted your facts, that’s what I said in my last post, I apologise for imagining that ten years ago we had a thriving international transport industry and now we don’t, I completely imagined all of those Poles and Lithuanians on Le Shuttle. I’ve been sniffing glue.

[orys]

Still pitiful attempt to be funny. I also see plenty of foreign trucks here… But this does not contradict what I am saying. Because what I am saying is that today the Eastern Europe does not look as it used to 10 years ago. So while 10 years ago you would be unable to do anything about the guys who were taking your job for 30% of your price, today everything changed and with just a bit of trying harder, you can succesfully compete with them, as many British firms do, just to recall again the fridge van work available on that forum some time ago, that took over the contract from Polish company…

In other word: yes, you had some tough times, but now the things has changed and its time for you to fight back, as you have chance now.

But you are not interested in facts, you have your assumption based of that you see a lot of foreign trucks, your mate told you some stories and you saw one or two Lithuanians who did something wrong…

Good luck then, keep trying to be funny on trucknet while other British companies will work according to the facts, not assumptions. And I wish them all the success…

I know at least two of Scottish companies that go to Europe and are growing recently despite the economic downturn… But I never heard them moaning about Eastern European, they just look how the market looks like and how they can fit into it and they do it.

[billybigrig]

Harry Monk:
No, no no, I have accepted your facts, that’s what I said in my last post, I apologise for imagining that ten years ago we had a thriving international transport industry and now we don’t, I completely imagined all of those Poles and Lithuanians on Le Shuttle. I’ve been sniffing glue.

Pass the evostick H I must of been high for 3 decades too

[harry_monk]

orys:
Still pitiful attempt to be funny. I also see plenty of foreign trucks here… But this does not contradict what I am saying. Because what I am saying is that today the Eastern Europe does not look as it used to 10 years ago. So while 10 years ago you would be unable to do anything about the guys who were taking your job for 30% of your price, today everything changed and with just a bit of trying harder, you can succesfully compete with them, as many British firms do, just to recall again the fridge van work available on that forum some time ago, that took over the contract from Polish company…

In other word: yes, you had some tough times, but now the things has changed and its time for you to fight back, as you have chance now.

But you are not interested in facts, you have your assumption based of that you see a lot of foreign trucks, your mate told you some stories and you saw one or two Lithuanians who did something wrong…

Good luck then, keep trying to be funny on trucknet while other British companies will work according to the facts, not assumptions. And I wish them all the success…

I know at least two of Scottish companies that go to Europe and are growing recently despite the economic downturn… But I never heard them moaning about Eastern European, they just look how the market looks like and how they can fit into it and they do it.

Yes, that is what I am trying to say. You were right and I was wrong. Sorry.

[orys]

In other words: you can’t admit seriously that you were wrong, so you are trying to ridicule me…

Pass

[turnip]

orys:
In other words: you can’t admit seriously that you were wrong, so you are trying to ridicule me…

Pass

No orys. You will not accept that eastern euro trucks destroyed british international hauliers ! This didn’t happen yesterday when running costs as you say are not so different anymore ! It happened 10-15 years ago.

Also orys your posts are so long I’ve stopped reading them. Reply if you like but I shan’t bother. Got better things to do.

[orys]

turnip:

orys:
In other words: you can’t admit seriously that you were wrong, so you are trying to ridicule me…

Pass

No orys. You will not accept that eastern euro trucks destroyed british international hauliers ! This didn’t happen yesterday when running costs as you say are not so different anymore ! It happened 10-15 years ago.

Also orys your posts are so long I’ve stopped reading them. Reply if you like but I shan’t bother. Got better things to do.

Yes, but today it changed and you can fight back, as I wrote… Sorry for that my post are so long, maybe I just should have fun of you, like Harry, instead of providing factual information.

[gbpub]

orys:
Yes, but today it changed and you can fight back, as I wrote… Sorry for that my post are so long, maybe I just should have fun of you, like Harry, instead of providing factual information.

The UK haulage industry has been decimated. And as we don’t get the same subsidies/grants that the EE have had to purchase new trucks/vans it isn’t easy to fight back.

I have no doubt miloddon et all will again come on and say they don’t get subsidies/grants, well I can assure you that they did and some still do. Lever playing field…no chance not while the EC play at bringing every country possible into the money making pit for those in power.

[harry_monk]

orys:
In other words: you can’t admit seriously that you were wrong, so you are trying to ridicule me…

Pass

When the only person who was not here before the opening up of the eastern Bloc regards himself as the only person able to speak with any authority about what the British haulage was like before the opening up of the eastern Bloc, then possibly that person leaves himself wide open to ridicule.

The reason a Pole or Lithuanian will take a load from Birmingham to Barcelona is simply that a British haulier would not be able to do it at the rate offered.

[orys]

GBPub:

orys:
Yes, but today it changed and you can fight back, as I wrote… Sorry for that my post are so long, maybe I just should have fun of you, like Harry, instead of providing factual information.

And as we don’t get the same subsidies/grants that the EE have had to purchase new trucks/vans it isn’t easy to fight back.

What subsidies EE have? Don’t be silly, transport is excluded from the EU dotations…

I have no doubt miloddon et all will again come on and say they don’t get subsidies/grants, well I can assure you that they did and some still do.

Any sources of that info? Or just MMTM?

Because I have a source to prove YOU wrong:

http://eurokasa.pb.pl/2238712,18734,czy-sa-dotacje-dla-firmy-transportowej:
Niemniej jednak, jeżeli chodzi o dotacje z UE występuje klika ograniczeń w odniesieniu do możliwości pozyskania dofinansowania przez firmy z sektora transportu. Mianowicie Unia Europejska w świetle niewykorzystanych mocy w sektorze transportu i specyficznych problemów związanych z zakłóceniem konkurencji w sektorach transportu drogowego i lotniczego, postanowiła, że przedsiębiorstwa, które prowadzą podstawową działalność gospodarczą w tych właśnie sektorach transportu nie mogą ubiegać się o dofinansowanie zakupu środków transportu i urządzeń transportowych.
Ponadto w przypadku kiedy firma transportowa realizuje projekt, który dotyczy działalności określonej wg numeru PKD (Polska Klasyfikacja Działalności) należącego do sekcji Transport wówczas nie przysługują jej dodatkowe premie podwyższające poziom dofinansowania przyznawane podmiotom należącym do sektora MSP.

Translation:

"Hovewer, if it comes to subsidies from UE there are certain limitations when it comes to possibility of gaining grants by the companies from transport industry. The European Union in light of free powers in transport sector and specific problems related to disturbing competition in sector of road haulage and air transport has decided, that the companies which main activity is in these sectors of transport cannot apply for grants and subsidies to buy the means of transport and transport facilities.
Moreover in case that transport company is realising project that is related to (blah blah blah) transport, it cannot apply for extra bonuses for (blah blah blah) small and medium copmpanies"

Translation is dodgy as it is specialised legal language.

Harry Monk:
When the only person who was not here before the opening up of the eastern Bloc regards himself as the only person able to speak with any authority about what the British haulage was like before the opening up of the eastern Bloc, then possibly that person leaves himself wide open to ridicule.

Yeah, but if you pretend to be experts on Eastern Europe, giving such stories as the one abouve, everything is all right…

And you again proved that you don’t even read what I am writing. I do not refer to the historical period, I simply say that thanks to the enourmous changes that happened in Eastern Europe over recent years, today the competition is much more fair than it used to be even 5 years ago.

The reason a Pole or Lithuanian will take a load from Birmingham to Barcelona is simply that a British haulier would not be able to do it at the rate offered.

What I am saying is that on many occassions it is no longer true. I even give you a concrete example from my own back yard, but you choosed to ignore as it does not fit into your picture of the world.

[gbpub]

Orys, what is meant to happen and what actually happens are two entirely different matters. I personally know the directors of a number of UK companies who have set up operations in EE countries including Poland and can assure you that they were given extremely generous grants to do so.