You said I (and you directly addressed me, not vice versa as you are now suggesting) was talking “tosh”. I said “show me” (simply returning your direct addressing). And like I said, I was trying to give a simple-ish answer based on OPs apparent level of understanding.
You’re on agency, is that correct? The problems you’re experiencing are pretty much par for the course for many people on agency work (Connor seems a bit of an exception, he apparently is quite content with a long-term agency gig)
One that sticks in my mind was where I had five pallets loaded for my second drop. The would-be client rejected it as it clearly was not intended for them - I had wondered a little why Greggs head office would want five pallets of identical hoovers. But, this left me with the problem of these five pallets being in my way for the rest of the day and only a hand pallet truck to move them around, in very limited space, so I could get at the pallets behind them.
Turned out this was a mistake by someone in the office or office plus warehouse, and when I got back to the yard with these five pallets, some irate “warehouse monkey” was kicking off with me over the company’s mistake. WTF? Fortunately I didn’t have to even consider going back as I got some hiab work the next day
If/when you find something more permanent, you may find that things are less of a pain in the testicles
Things that may bring the average down are:
- POA
- Leave days set at 8 hours (a driver would typically do more than 8 hours)
- Non-statutory holidays (a manager can go on the system and ‘zero’ days under certain circumstances)
I think I’ve made my point, so I’m out on that one.
im not that arrogant to think that because i think the cpc stuff i did was poor it should be scrapped. be it a good or bad provider it is still approved material otherwise whats the point.
I realise that it inst possible large groups each possible variation of load and securing method however i would argue that 4 hours spent in the yard with a vehicle is time better spent that 4 hours in a stuffy classroom watching the same power point presentation of shed /poorly loaded vehicles making the same inane comments.
The thing that winds me up the most is its everyone else’s problem. the company can point to the cpc the cpc provider can point to the company or the driving school the driving school can point to the cpc and the company. All in all nothing really gets done but generate a lot of paper work.
in your example of older drivers getting caught out by not having full records. I would argue in this case it is the companies responsibility to properly inform all drivers of the new rules and to make sure they are being stuck to and provide any training needed not pass the buck and wait for the cpc provider to do it.
I would probably agree there.
Unfortunately, and I might very well be wrong, that sort of thing isn’t likely to be an “approved” part of any course?
Not sure I agree with that.
We are meant to be professionals.
End of the day we do stand to pay a fine or lose our licence. We should all do better at staying in front of the laws.
The better companies do a fair job of keeping drivers informed, but, since you talk about “passing the buck” we can’t pass it back to them if they fail.
End of the day we do stand to pay a fine or lose our licence.
im not that arrogant to think that because i think the cpc stuff i did was poor it should be scrapped. be it a good or bad provider it is still approved material otherwise whats the point.
Yeah, but you’re not familiar with the “approval system”, I am, as long as it can be shoehorned into the DCPC syllabus one way or another, it will be validated: “T’aint no big ting”
I realise that it inst possible large groups each possible variation of load and securing method however i would argue that 4 hours spent in the yard with a vehicle is time better spent that 4 hours in a stuffy classroom watching the same power point presentation of shed /poorly loaded vehicles making the same inane comments.
This is your perspective based on your experience, which clearly has been the typical (sub)standard we see all over the place, thousands will agree with you. As for “Better”, who is going to pay for “better”? Drivers and Operators only care about the cost. Have you ever heard that expression “Better, Cheaper, Faster - pick two from three”
The thing that winds me up the most is its everyone else’s problem. the company can point to the cpc the cpc provider can point to the company or the driving school the driving school can point to the cpc and the company. All in all nothing really gets done but generate a lot of paper work.
Too much negativity: there are good and bad practitioners in every walk of life, they need to be looked for. I’m assuming with your background you might have previously heard the phrase “Caveat emptor!”
in your example of older drivers getting caught out by not having full records. I would argue in this case it is the companies responsibility to properly inform all drivers of the new rules and to make sure they are being stuck to and provide any training needed not pass the buck and wait for the cpc provider to do it.
LOL! Now who’s passing the buck? I dare say I meet more Operators than your average driver, and I can tell you that MANY aren’t aware of these new rules themselves, that’s why the TC’s are now enforcing five-yearly refresher training
I’ve got half-a-dozen TMs doing my TM Refresher course later this week, I will cast-iron guarantee that less than half of them will even be aware of the record keeping changes, and I’d wager a month’s salary that even if they ARE aware of it, NONE of them know what to do about it, nor how to communicate it effectively to their drivers. Sending them to a DCPC provider (they have personally verified) is not “passing the buck” it is “providing training via a suitably qualified third party”. THAT is why the TC sends them to get trained because they know Operators frequently fail to keep themselves up to date with the industry changes.
There’s a lot more to being an Operator than just looking at tacho downloads, there’s important changes to load security, vehicle maintenance, and “employment status” as well.
the point i was trying to make was if my employer waits for me to do a cpc course on drivers hours it is potentially 5 years before i find out assuming i cant do the same course unit 5 times. that’s 5 years of potential for fines for me and my employer
coops, the system for ironing out any issues with drivers’ hours that a driver may have is the infringement system. You are handed a piece of paper to sign that you understand where you have gone wrong. If you don’t understand, the TM should explain it to you.
You have to work quite hard to get any fines in actual fact. The DVSA sanctions policy details what you have to do and no I’m not talking you through it.
That’s fair enough, but a decent TM, who isn’t just some name on a piece of paper, or one of those guys who sits on his derriere in the office all day, will be doing toolbox talks for their drivers on specific issues, or if they not up to the job themselves, getting a training provider to visit on site for a specific TBT. So I would expect my TM Refresher candidates to be doing just that early next week, especially when I tell them “It’s in your own interests to get your guys up to speed if you want to avoid damage to your O-licence”. Plus, any half-decent firm sends their drivers for one day DCPC per year (DVSA expect this), and any half-decent training provider should cover important updates, even if they aren’t part of the subject of the day. It shouldn’t be five yearly intervals (if the company care about their O-licence)
this is what i was getting at rather than shrugging it all off and saying oh well they will cover it on the cpc
am i wrong in that im not allowed to do the same module more than once in 5 years. If this is the case it matters not if i am being sent on a module or choosing it myself the same thing applies it will be 5 years before i can do that specific unit again if i want it to count.
This is where my experience becomes just that. As i said i have only ever done the mod 4 and one full week of cpc. Obviously as every one on that course was doing the full week bar 2 people that were in jail the instructor obviously wouldn’t repeat information that was all ready given to us when doing a different module.
incidentally when did this new rule come in? i started late 2019 early 2020. My first job where i was actually driving was for a company that wanted every minuet recorded from clock on to clock off.
just for reference this was one of the pictures we were shown when doing load security https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/4f5a54c55e003ec80f4edb1f139bf104d788e3a0/0_0_2712_3661/master/2712.jpg?width=1140&dpr=1&s=none
we were given the pat answer of see he hasn’t strapped it when asked for a more detailed explanation we got he should of used straps or internals.
the pic was found by googling shed loads from lorries and hitting the images tab
If an XL rated trailer would it have needed internal straps?
Would straps have held those pallets?
was apparently biccies so i imagine there wasn’t much weight there having now seen the article the picture came from you can just about see another shed load top left corner that was heavyer stuff with the curtain laying in the road so i assume this lorry swerved to avoid an accident and then opened the curtain.
This is my point though i have no idea what the correct method is having only ever done fridge work or box van work i have only ever had to stop the load rolling around inside and fore and aft
scratch that… its the same vehicle in the other pic the top curtain rail for want of a better description is lying in the road so the curtain gave out i assume
Obviously this isn’t a “how to secure a load” module.
99% it isn’t an XL trailer
The first thing I noticed was that the pallets appear to have only one turn of cling film… The boxes aren’t to the edge of the plts and that nothing is securing the boxes to the pallet.
Look at the paler blue plt. See how the boxes have closed the gap and slid along? Bit of hard braking and the load is halfway shot. There is then plenty of room further back for movement.
The bottom cartons appear to be deformed. There seems to be some bowing/bulging.
Weak boxes unsuitable for double stacking. Crap stacking of the pallets. Inadequate wrapping of plts.
I am not sure I would have accepted that double stacking. Easier to say that from here of course.
I would have used internals and corner boards, or straps plus m/t plts on top, even in an XL trl.
It looks like a crap load, but should have been manageable.
If the sender says the straps will damage the load that is proof they are not suitably packaged for transport.
am i wrong in that im not allowed to do the same module more than once in 5 years. If this is the case it matters not if i am being sent on a module or choosing it myself the same thing applies it will be 5 years before i can do that specific unit again if i want it to count.
It matters because: (i) those character who whinge and cry about doing a whole week all at once are not doing what is expected, and (ii) DVSA actively EXPECT Operators to facilitate one day per year, it is two of the questions for the Operator when DVSA turn up “for a visit”, which is unlikely to be a random event and is normally precipitated by a string of roadside infringements by that company’s drivers: Q1 Do you arrange one day per year of DCPC for your drivers? If yes, Q2 Does the company pay for it? If yes to Q2, all good, move onto the next question.
This is where my experience becomes just that. As i said i have only ever done the mod 4 and one full week of cpc. Obviously as every one on that course was doing the full week bar 2 people that were in jail the instructor obviously wouldn’t repeat information that was all ready given to us when doing a different module.
No, NOT “obviously” at all, it’s not uncommon for someone to join a group but only do a single day, or just a few days out of the week. And what if someone didn’t take in an important update at first hearing? If you went where I send “my” drivers, at the start of every course you’d get all the relevant updates that were not part of that day’s course already, so doing one day per year you’d still be kept up to date, and by spreading the courses out over five years you should always be pretty much fully up to date
So lets say you rock up for Drivers hours, that course will contain all the older standard stuff, plus the 2020 updates, plus the “full records” bit which dates from 2020 but is now newly enforced starting late 2022, plus a heads up about potential changes in 2025
But, you’d also get updates on “electronic devices” legislation (March 2022), changes to the Highway code in relation to VRUs (Jan 2022), potential changes to DCPC in future, an exhortation to take control of your DCPC training record, warnings about specific police wongful demands (Northumbria police only), a reminder about Operation Tramline, and discussion of relevant local issues (eg who it was who hit that nearby bridge and what they can expect). Plus a host of other stuff too numerous to mention, such as what a DCH is, who the north east TC is etc etc
That’s just a bad choice of training provider that is. I know the guy who does the courses for my client’s drivers very well. A picture like this would simply be a prelude to: the consequences for driver (a fine, typically £300) for the Operator (immediate PG9) other slides showing the relevant pages of Categorisation of Defects where load securing penalties are listed, where you can find CoD free online, discussion of lashings (internal versus externals) backed up with an instuctional video, alternative methods of securing (EN 12642-XL and its criteria, also nets), and illustrated with DVSA videos, and a lot more stuff besides. You hardly ever see anyone giving a decent bit of feedback on a days training, which is why these rubbish providers continue to exist. I bet they never explained the data label on a ratchet strap, what all the abbreviations mean (daN, STF, SHF, LC etc) or BS EN 12195-2, or… The list goes on and on.
I can understand operators and drivers being reluctant to facilitate unnecessary CPC.
I mean, does anyone really know if they will be driving in 5 years? A lot can happen, people can change jobs, not pass the medical etc etc.
So… it is perfectly understandable leaving it late.