Think big fat catalogues and little pencils, vehicles are based at Faverdale Ind Est, Darlo.
I believe it is the case that if you take a fixed week completely off, then it counts as 48 hours (up to the statutory entitlement), but if you take a single day then it is 8 hours. Obviously if you work five days, 8 times 5 only equals 40.
There are drivers sad enough to avoid ever taking a full fixed week off, purely to maximise the possible hours they can do.
Always get that debate between hourly paid and salary.
It’s hard to decide based on what work you do.
When I took over as TM at Samuel Courtauld’s in 1984 I was informed that the drivers were all salaried but all overtime was paid and based on their weekly salary divided by 40 and mulitplied by 1 and a half.
A system which definitely favoured them and continued into the Toray era after the Japanese multi-national bought the company.
My salary of course was higher than the drivers but with one big difference, I didn’t get paid overtime but, to be fair, the only time I did any was on a Friday night, when I was often late leaving the office after sorting all the loads and routing ready for the loaders on Saturday morning.
The history of this was interesting. Samuel Courtauld was an independant company within the wider Courtauld’s Group and which was the original company set up by the Huguenot Protestant refugee of the same name from French persecution. It was based in its original centre in Halstead, Essex but moved to Nottingham after buying out the dyeing company of Spray and Burgass. An interesting aside is that my wife’s first husband decided on a change of course and retrained as an artic driver with them but then jack-knifed it on his first trip out, at Boot’s island in Beeston. Lost his bottle and never touched anything but a car afterwards. 
Anyway, one day, the dyeworkers at S&B went on strike and the place came to a stop. The drivers of the day did not join the strike and continued to deliver whatever there was to be in stock at the time and, as a result, a grateful company made them all staff and they, all non union before, were recruited en masse into the middle management union ASTMS, which in those days was led by a firebrand Welshman called Clive Jenkins. I too was recruited to that union but later left disillusioned with the lack of support and I led all the drivers out with me to the only drivers’ union URTU, with me as both manager and shop steward at the same time.
I had a mentor in doing this, Rod Closs, a driver I previously worked with at Midland Storage, set up his own company later and I went to work for him. One day one of us was refused tipping in a union closed shop somewhere so he, paying all our subs, signed us up to TGWU with him as the steward. 
So, back to the point, salary is good if it means you get overtime paid too. 
BTW, late '90s when I was fed up with the Japanese way of doing things and, always cab-happy anyway, I stepped down to become a driver instead, I suffered no drop in income because my previous managerial salary was more or less the same as a driver’s, including all the overtime.
I never did understand though why only the drivers were gifted salary status back in S&B days, because presumably the warehouse staff who loaded them were in the same boat too, but were never put on salary as well. 
My first lorry job was bagged coal deliveries for the Co-Op.
Hourly but with overtime paid. In the summer when it was mostly a few big drops and often just a mornings work there was still a full day paid. Run around and off to the beach!
Next was on HGVs and hourly paid, with (1970’s) a good minimum rate for everyone in the area through the Union and the JIC. Extra for early starts, late finishes and overtime too. We also a had bonus system with mileage and number of drops/collections included. Minimum hrs per day guaranteed, but never needed as we were busy. Paid hrs off the Log-Book so no incentive to run bent.
Few years in an office on salary, and the late Friday nights were at no extra pay, and no extra for the phone calls at home at 04hrs00. End of the year the drivers were doing less work for more money than me.
Next was on Euro work. Paid by the day and half day. Back in the late 80’s we still had the Avis de Passage, TIR Parks and T-Forms so hours were all over the place. If a rush job came up we sort of negotiated a rate for it.
“Yeah, I can probably get it there, but it normally takes 3 days not two”
“OK book an extra day going down, and if you get back early, I’ll pay an extra night out to cover what you’re losing”.
9 days pay per week, and a day off at home etc.
Another Euro job on day rates, with lots of sitting around doing not a lot.
Last job was a straight salary. Euro work again. Dead straight on the cards.
I knew the company and their work rate well. It was a pay cut from the previous one, but sometime it involved 8 hr days and home by Friday lunchtime. Worked well.
It is IMHO important to look at the whole job and not get bogged down in just one measure of it.
it all depends. i would and hopefully will be swapping to a job that earns 10-15k a year less. Unionised, shorter shifts maybe 10 min up the road rather than an hour at least each way. However I am lucky i have low over heads broadly all i have to do is feed and clothe myself and pay my bills. I don’t have any dependents nor am i interested in expensive holidays all in all im in a very unique situation.
I can see though that the majority of people have lots of outgoings and need to earn a certain wage to make ends meet therefor wage could easily outstrip location and what the job is
But being off for a full week still includes the Saturday, so these “sad” drivers are even sadder because they haven’t understood WTD/RTD, or (probably more likely) haven’t ever been told properly about the rules.
So a single Saturday counts as 8 hours whether you’re at work or off; a full week off counts as 48 hours (Mon to Fri plus Sat inc.), a full two weeks of “summer holiday” counts as 96 hours towards the total, and so on.
I never cease to marvel that this industry needs to tell its members to have time off, and to enforce it, while elsewhere people are asking for shorter working hours, four day weeks etc
i must be being thick but i cant see how anyone can do a 48 hour week on average with all the constraints. Dont work a Tuesday tough its still 8 hours. Have a fortnight off still 96 hours and all the other examples given
Work/Life Balance innit?
The biggest expense for most people is housing.
Housing affordability in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics.
Over the past twenty or so years, the relative cost of housing has shot up.
Pay has doubled, but housing is four and a half times more!
No wonder some, or many, are chasing the hours as they need the money.
Dare I mention “the D abbreviation”?
WTD/RTD is something that ought to be very clearly explained on one of those courses that are allegedly “words the autocensor won’t allow”, where “no one ever learns nothin’” (sic) and which are “boring” and “useless” and “shud B scraped” (triple sic)
Everyone always needs more money, everyone always complains they’re skint, even when they have twice as much as their mates. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of people I’ve met in my lifetime who are satisfied with what they have.
It’s just the default human condition to always be dissatisfied, up to 8% of the world population subscribe to a religion with this sentiment at the very core of its teachings.
HGV drivers work far longer hours than just about anyone else I can think of, and generally have a shorter lifespan than the average UK worker, due to numerous unhealthy habits which are alleged to be “it’s just the job innit?”
Or in the words of the Right Satanic Reverend Lord Osbourne of Sabbathshire
I quite agree with your sentiments regarding drivers wishing to work long hours.
However, what you are saying about Sundays is complete tosh, away and look up the legislation.
The appropriate response would be for you to provide any evidence of “toshness”, so, in your own time…
However, if you mean a case where someone has specifically chosen to work on a Sunday and not be at work on another day, I’m happy with that, I’m just trying to provide a simple-ish explanation appropriate to the level of detail provided by OP.
Most experienced people know that WTD/RTD problems are treated as a “non-offence” at the roadside and only really become a problem when DVSA invite their selves to the company offices to trawl the paperwork. At that point the analysis software printouts of the WTD/RTD Reference Period should be enough to settle any arguments.
As i have said before im in 2 minds about the cpc stuff i can see the benefits of it if it was taught properly (in my mind it isn’t) However i can also see why seasoned pros that have been in transport since they were in short trousers view it is unneeded for them.
It would also help if the companies obeyed the same rules that are spouted by their trainers in the cpc class.
when i did my class 2 i chose/was advised to do the mod 4 rather than the 35 hours. During my training the instructor held up a ratchet strap got a person to hold onto each ended and said its tightened like this and loosened like this. same with a load bar and a chain Absolutely nothing about torsional loading the do’s and donts of how to properly strap a load. As to the practical part we were given a list of set questions with pat answers. well done you have passed your mod 4. Complete rubbish. I went on to my first job not knowing the first thing. didn’t really understand drivers hours just the pat answers learnt to pass the exam. I didn’t even know which way round to put my card in the tacho as the vehicle i learnt in still had a paper one fitted.
I have also done a 35 hour cpc course thinking that i would learn some stuff about strapping things properly and actually get proper professional answers there were also people doing it for the first time and just about to start their lessons again all we did was a few thought exercises… so and so starts at six am and drives for 1 hour 20 and breaks wind for 10 minuets… blah blah when do they need a break. None of these were really relevant to the industry and i cant remember a single one that covered weekly hours. Ashamedly i was driving for several years before i found out that the 6 hour rule resets.
Same when it came to loading and security just endless pictures of shed loads with the mantra the driver was an idiot he didn’t strap the load correctly. No mention of how to strap the loads.
I would agree with (almost) all of that.
My only disagreement is that some old hands who are very sure they don’t need any lessons? Do!
I’ve been around years but still picked up things at my last DCPC courses.
Mind you…I was actually listening.
Having said that, on one course the instructor started talking about ferry movements expecting to just race over it, and we had to correct and explain things to him. Credit where it is due, it all went back to the books and we all agreed on what was written, how it had changed, and how it could be used in the real world.
But that is an irrelevance to most drivers nowadays.
Most drivers may learn the bare bones of everything, but only go into detail on what affects them, personally. All very well of course until there is breakdown, or a hiccup of some other sort when they are in the…twilight zone…!
Using straps and chains is not something that is easy to learn well.
If you start on for a steel stock-holder etc you will probably get specific in house training. Hopefully anyway.
Knowing how to chain down steel sheet isn’t the same as chaining a lathe, heat exchanger, or strapping timber.
I don’t have to prove anything. Mentioning Saturday and Sunday just misleads people. Your days off on leave are on days you would normally be working, which can be any day of the week.
It was just a little anecdote on the way some drivers work round the rules to get more work in. I actually originally let your Saturday and Sunday talk go without commenting, but seeing as you are addressing it directly at me now.
i would wager that the majority of new starts are going to go into pallet work. my argument is that it doesn’t matter weather its a myford or a boxford its still on a pallet and needs to be secured properly.
Because of the demonstration i had when i did my class 2 i thought you put the strap horizontally across hour later i had a 50 gallon barrel of oil with a big dent in the side and a scratched fridge . It never occurred to me that i needed to anchor the strap behind the front edge of the pallets to stop lateral movement.
Having said that i had a heated discussion the other day with a warehouse bod that bitched i had loaded the trailer with cages by turning one sideways on each row and then on the next row turning the cage on the other end sideways so the cages didn’t knock hell out of each other and the sides of the fridge box.
Warehous monkeys who share a single undeveloped brain cell between them. Can’t strap, can’t load cages, can’t do a sodden thing.
i think that is a little unfair trouble is in the industry its always someone else’s problem. its not the warehouse monkey’s problem to restack a cage because the office cant organise the picking properly and insist on putting heavy items on top of light ones. they haven’t the time to go and get another cage and re stack it all. nor do they have time to go hunt around the warehouse looking for a undamaged cage. nor is it there job to be telling the guy setting out the cages to do it right. it is all down to the supervisors that all they want to do is sit at their desk or go for smokes.
This is the crux of the issue everything has been pared down to the bare minimum by idiots that have never done a days work in their life. They need to look at where they can save money and rather than take it out of their bloated saleries and bonuses or looking at the non jobs that don’t actually add anything to the product whatsoever they look at the warehouse staff and drivers.
As an experiment, rather than use multiquotes, I’m just going to use italics for MY comments and plain text for yours Coop
As i have said before im in 2 minds about the cpc stuff i can see the benefits of it if it was taught properly (in my mind it isn’t) However i can also see why seasoned pros that have been in transport since they were in short trousers view it is unneeded for them.
It’s not a question of the scheme meeting anyone’s personal approval, it’s the law you must have it to drive commercially. And I can tell you categorically that there are many “seasoned pros” who are woefully out of touch with the legislative changes, most obvious right now in terms of “not having full records of all activities”. They can choose to learn via a good practically experienced DCPC trainer who has been recommended to them, or they can opt for DVSA’s “Training via the wallet”. I know which one I think is wisest
It would also help if the companies obeyed the same rules that are spouted by their trainers in the cpc class.
The “trainers” are not necessarily attached to the company the drivers work for, in fact it is relatively rare. A good, independent DCPC trainer will advise the drivers to challenge their employer for how they apply their version of the rules
when i did my class 2 i chose/was advised to do the mod 4 rather than the 35 hours. During my training the instructor held up a ratchet strap got a person to hold onto each ended and said its tightened like this and loosened like this. same with a load bar and a chain Absolutely nothing about torsional loading the do’s and donts of how to properly strap a load. As to the practical part we were given a list of set questions with pat answers. well done you have passed your mod 4. Complete rubbish. I went on to my first job not knowing the first thing. didn’t really understand drivers hours just the pat answers learnt to pass the exam. I didn’t even know which way round to put my card in the tacho as the vehicle i learnt in still had a paper one fitted.
I agree, Mod 4 is a joke, but everything in the industry is dumbed down now, this is just DVSA lowering their standards too
I have also done a 35 hour cpc course thinking that i would learn some stuff about strapping things properly and actually get proper professional answers there were also people doing it for the first time and just about to start their lessons again all we did was a few thought exercises… so and so starts at six am and drives for 1 hour 20 and breaks wind for 10 minuets… blah blah when do they need a break. None of these were really relevant to the industry and i cant remember a single one that covered weekly hours. Ashamedly i was driving for several years before i found out that the 6 hour rule resets.
This is because very few people think/realise that every different training provider creates their own custom courses- these things aren’t handed out from “on high” by DVSA or any other part of the governmental apparatus. Some TPs bosh out any old nonsense, others work hard to make it relevant, engaging and up to date.
I learned that when I was still driving, I’d left my long-term employer and had to pay for my own last seven hours of DCPC, so I got to choose the TP that time, I avoided “like the plague” the one I knew from the other courses, and specifically chose to do Drivers Hours with a new outfit. I was taken aback by how much I learned. Now there’s only one place in my area I would send the drivers who work for my TM clients.
Same when it came to loading and security just endless pictures of shed loads with the mantra the driver was an idiot he didn’t strap the load correctly. No mention of how to strap the loads.
With a full room of 20 drivers I can understand that the trainer probably won’t traipse the whole group outside and get hands on with a vehicle - this of course assumes the DCPC provider is actually attached to a driving school and has access to a wagon, many/most are not.
Where they ARE attached, practical sessions only work in small groups, but there’s no reason they can’t bring the kit into the room and let people have a go, and certainly no reason not to show instructional videos of how it is done. Again, this comes down to whoever chooses the training provider thinking they’re all the same and that it doesn’t matter; whoever is in that role should be made to attend the course alongside their drivers.