NIP.... Should I just bend over and let them shaft me?

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61

Coffeeholic:

dar1976:
… but at the time it seemed like I was proving my innocence and trying to stop it stressing me any further.

This is British law and the onus is on them to prove your guilt. There is absolutely no burden on you to prove your innocence, if it gets to court you can if you wish produce stuff to support your case but even then it is down to them to prove guilt, not for you to prove innocence. I know what you were trying to do and it seems like the best way to be helpful and supply evidence to help clear it up but really in this situation the best thing to do is STFU, it’s always worked for me in this sort of situation. :wink: By supplying them with things you could even inadvertently help them make their case.

Playing devils advocate for a minute, you mention chart, so you weren’t on a digi, and the problem is you have absolutely no proof the tacho time was correct. You have a chart that shows you stationary at 15:00 but there is nothing to say it was actually 15:00 at the time. If they do decide to go ahead with this then something else to support the chart would be helpful, did the person you were delivering to sign the delivery notes with the time for instance? Again in itself that wouldn’t be total proof but when you start adding the things together, statement from driver’s mate, chart, notes, it supports your case.

I see what you are saying and yes in their shoes I would probably come up with the same argument. (Yes it was analogue).

Right now I am just hoping that sense prevails and they don’t use it against me.

As far as I remember the notes only ask for date and not time.

62

coffeeholic wrote
“This is British law and the onus is on them to prove your guilt. There is absolutely no burden on you to prove your innocence, if it gets to court you can if you wish produce stuff to support your case but even then it is down to them to prove guilt, not for you to prove innocence.”

Unless it’s a driving offence then you have to admit guilt , by admitting you are the driver. If dar didn’t hit anything or commit any other offence he’s better off pleading his innocence early rather than waiting to go to court. Not trying to prove your innocence is a sure fire way of looking guilty.

63

Foxstein:
If dar didn’t hit anything or commit any other offence he’s better off pleading his innocence early rather than waiting to go to court. Not trying to prove your innocence is a sure fire way of looking guilty.

Have you ever been in Dar situation ? Don’t sound like it to me :unamused:

No point in speculating just yet, hopefully plod will see it for what it is…

64

Foxstein:

coffeeholic:
This is British law and the onus is on them to prove your guilt. There is absolutely no burden on you to prove your innocence, if it gets to court you can if you wish produce stuff to support your case but even then it is down to them to prove guilt, not for you to prove innocence.

Unless it’s a driving offence then you have to admit guilt , by admitting you are the driver.

Disclosing you are the driver is not admitting guilt. You never have to admit guilt, that’s not the way the British legal system works. If disclosing you were the driver was admitting guilt no one would ever get found not guilty. All you are saying by completing and returning the NIP is, “Yes, I was the driver of that vehicle at that time, now prove I have done something wrong.”

Foxstein:
If dar didn’t hit anything or commit any other offence he’s better off pleading his innocence early rather than waiting to go to court.

Of course he is saying he is not guilty, innocent, at the moment, or at least he will be if he gets a follow up to the return of the NIP saying they are taking it further. At that point he will say he is not guilty and wishes to go to court if they are offering a Fixed Penalty or will plead not guilty when he attends the court. Even then there is no onus on him under the British legal system for him to prove innocence. The whole system is based on innocent until proved guilty and the prosecution side have to do all the proving.

Foxstein:
Not trying to prove your innocence is a sure fire way of looking guilty.

I really hope you are never called for jury duty, if you are the person in the dock is [zb]ed before the trial even starts. :wink:

You must have seen some of those legal based TV shows, fact or fiction. What’s the first thing the lawyer says to their client? “Don’t say a word, let me do the talking,” and there are good reasons for that.

Seriously, if you ever get in this situation get legal advice ASAP because otherwise you could hang yourself out to dry.

65

steve_24v:

Foxstein:
If dar didn’t hit anything or commit any other offence he’s better off pleading his innocence early rather than waiting to go to court. Not trying to prove your innocence is a sure fire way of looking guilty.

Have you ever been in Dar situation ? Don’t sound like it to me :unamused:

Indeed. It sounds like he has never watched any of those border control, customs, police real life TV shows. They constantly say in those that the person who talks too much, offers loads of information and is desperate to prove their innocence is usually as guilty as sin.

steve_24v:
No point in speculating just yet, hopefully plod will see it for what it is…

Hopefully. I think it’s just a fishing expedition at the moment and they are seeing if they will get someone daft enough to bite. If it’s just going to be one word against the other they will probably drop it like a hot potato.

66

Coffeeholic:

Foxstein:

coffeeholic:
This is British law and the onus is on them to prove your guilt. There is absolutely no burden on you to prove your innocence, if it gets to court you can if you wish produce stuff to support your case but even then it is down to them to prove guilt, not for you to prove innocence.

Unless it’s a driving offence then you have to admit guilt , by admitting you are the driver.

Disclosing you are the driver is not admitting guilt. You never have to admit guilt, that’s not the way the British legal system works. If disclosing you were the driver was admitting guilt no one would ever get found not guilty. All you are saying by completing and returning the NIP is, “Yes, I was the driver of that vehicle at that time, now prove I have done something wrong.”

Foxstein:
If dar didn’t hit anything or commit any other offence he’s better off pleading his innocence early rather than waiting to go to court.

Of course he is saying he is not guilty, innocent, at the moment, or at least he will be if he gets a follow up to the return of the NIP saying they are taking it further. At that point he will say he is not guilty and wishes to go to court if they are offering a Fixed Penalty or will plead not guilty when he attends the court. Even then there is no onus on him under the British legal system for him to prove innocence. The whole system is based on innocent until proved guilty and the prosecution side have to do all the proving.

Foxstein:
Not trying to prove your innocence is a sure fire way of looking guilty.

I really hope you are never called for jury duty, if you are the person in the dock is [zb]ed before the trial even starts. :wink:

Seriously, if you ever get in this situation get legal advice ASAP because otherwise you could hang yourself out to dry.

Have to disagree with that bit about NIP’s not being about admitting guilt. In most cases once you have completed a NIP nominating yourself as the driver, you are then considered to be guilty, hence the offer of fixed penalty, driver improvement course or worse.

If you challenge it in court, the prosecution will supply the camera image (the vast majority of NIP’s are issued for scameras) or other evidence to prove the offence, then they will submit your completed NIP as evidence to prove the identity of the offender.

There was a massive legal challenge over NIP’s which ultimately fell because the courts were just too scared to to face up to the truth…

If you are driving a car and you set off a scamera, you get an NIP. You are guilty of an offence. Under british law, you have the right to remain silent when questioned about an alleged offence…except for motoring offences, when it is an entirely separate offence to fail to complete the NIP. So, under threat of prosecution you have to incriminate yourself…

Anyway…before we go too far off topic…

67

Coffeeholic:
If it’s just going to be one word against the other they will probably drop it like a hot potato.

But it’s not going to be is it :unamused:

Anyone who is prepared to try this type of thing on will come up with a shed load of witnesses. Next thing you know the whole street will have been taken out :open_mouth:

68

DonutUK:

Coffeeholic:

Foxstein:

coffeeholic:
This is British law and the onus is on them to prove your guilt. There is absolutely no burden on you to prove your innocence, if it gets to court you can if you wish produce stuff to support your case but even then it is down to them to prove guilt, not for you to prove innocence.

Unless it’s a driving offence then you have to admit guilt , by admitting you are the driver.

Disclosing you are the driver is not admitting guilt. You never have to admit guilt, that’s not the way the British legal system works. If disclosing you were the driver was admitting guilt no one would ever get found not guilty. All you are saying by completing and returning the NIP is, “Yes, I was the driver of that vehicle at that time, now prove I have done something wrong.”

Foxstein:
If dar didn’t hit anything or commit any other offence he’s better off pleading his innocence early rather than waiting to go to court.

Of course he is saying he is not guilty, innocent, at the moment, or at least he will be if he gets a follow up to the return of the NIP saying they are taking it further. At that point he will say he is not guilty and wishes to go to court if they are offering a Fixed Penalty or will plead not guilty when he attends the court. Even then there is no onus on him under the British legal system for him to prove innocence. The whole system is based on innocent until proved guilty and the prosecution side have to do all the proving.

Foxstein:
Not trying to prove your innocence is a sure fire way of looking guilty.

I really hope you are never called for jury duty, if you are the person in the dock is [zb]ed before the trial even starts. :wink:

Seriously, if you ever get in this situation get legal advice ASAP because otherwise you could hang yourself out to dry.

Have to disagree with that bit about NIP’s not being about admitting guilt. In most cases once you have completed a NIP nominating yourself as the driver, you are then considered to be guilty, hence the offer of fixed penalty, driver improvement course or worse.

Of course you are considered guilty, they wouldn’t be trying to punish you otherwise, but that still isn’t admitting guilt. Being considered guilty and admitting it are not the same thing. Completing the NIP as required by law is simply acknowledging you were the driver at the time, nothing more than that. That’s why the follow up letter offering a Fixed Penalty for instance gives you the option to decline it and go to court. If by completing the NIP you were admitting guilt you wouldn’t have that option, no need to go to court because you have said you are guilty.

I know this is TruckNet and we do like to find people guilty without know all, or even any, of the facts; that truck rolled over on the roundabout so the driver must have been driving too fast or that truck went into the central reservation so the driver must have fallen asleep for instance, but thankfully the legal system doesn’t, or isn’t supposed to, work that way. :wink:

69

steve_24v:

Coffeeholic:
If it’s just going to be one word against the other they will probably drop it like a hot potato.

But it’s not going to be is it :unamused:

Anyone who is prepared to try this type of thing on will come up with a shed load of witnesses. Next thing you know the whole street will have been taken out :open_mouth:

I hope this helps. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

70

Coffeeholic:

DonutUK:

Coffeeholic:

Foxstein:

coffeeholic:
This is British law and the onus is on them to prove your guilt. There is absolutely no burden on you to prove your innocence, if it gets to court you can if you wish produce stuff to support your case but even then it is down to them to prove guilt, not for you to prove innocence.

Unless it’s a driving offence then you have to admit guilt , by admitting you are the driver.

Disclosing you are the driver is not admitting guilt. You never have to admit guilt, that’s not the way the British legal system works. If disclosing you were the driver was admitting guilt no one would ever get found not guilty. All you are saying by completing and returning the NIP is, “Yes, I was the driver of that vehicle at that time, now prove I have done something wrong.”

Foxstein:
If dar didn’t hit anything or commit any other offence he’s better off pleading his innocence early rather than waiting to go to court.

Of course he is saying he is not guilty, innocent, at the moment, or at least he will be if he gets a follow up to the return of the NIP saying they are taking it further. At that point he will say he is not guilty and wishes to go to court if they are offering a Fixed Penalty or will plead not guilty when he attends the court. Even then there is no onus on him under the British legal system for him to prove innocence. The whole system is based on innocent until proved guilty and the prosecution side have to do all the proving.

Foxstein:
Not trying to prove your innocence is a sure fire way of looking guilty.

I really hope you are never called for jury duty, if you are the person in the dock is [zb]ed before the trial even starts. :wink:

Seriously, if you ever get in this situation get legal advice ASAP because otherwise you could hang yourself out to dry.

Have to disagree with that bit about NIP’s not being about admitting guilt. In most cases once you have completed a NIP nominating yourself as the driver, you are then considered to be guilty, hence the offer of fixed penalty, driver improvement course or worse.

Of course you are considered guilty, they wouldn’t be trying to punish you otherwise, but that still isn’t admitting guilt. Being considered guilty and admitting it are not the same thing. Completing the NIP as required by law is simply acknowledging you were the driver at the time, nothing more than that. That’s why the follow up letter offering a Fixed Penalty for instance gives you the option to decline it and go to court. If by completing the NIP you were admitting guilt you wouldn’t have that option, no need to go to court because you have said you are guilty.

I know this is TruckNet and we do like to find people guilty without know all, or even any, of the facts; that truck rolled over on the roundabout so the driver must have been driving too fast or that truck went into the central reservation so the driver must have fallen asleep for instance, but thankfully the legal system doesn’t, or isn’t supposed to, work that way. :wink:

This is exactly where the problem lies. When you go to court, what evidence is used to prove you were the driver? The NIP you completed! Therefore you have just incriminated yourself.
However, you were also denied the most fundamental basic legal right of remaining silent, because if you hadn’t admitted to being the driver, you would get prosecuted under a different section of the RTA.
Hence, once you fill in that NIP and admit to being the driver, you have already helped place one nail in your legal coffin. Yes, you may produce other evidence that may try and establish your innocence, but (certainly in the case of scameras) all the prosecution need show is that your vehicle exceeded the limit, and that you were the driver. The scamera takes care of part one, your NIP takes care of part two. End of case.

71

DonutUK:

Coffeeholic:

DonutUK:

Coffeeholic:

Foxstein:

coffeeholic:
This is British law and the onus is on them to prove your guilt. There is absolutely no burden on you to prove your innocence, if it gets to court you can if you wish produce stuff to support your case but even then it is down to them to prove guilt, not for you to prove innocence.

Unless it’s a driving offence then you have to admit guilt , by admitting you are the driver.

Disclosing you are the driver is not admitting guilt. You never have to admit guilt, that’s not the way the British legal system works. If disclosing you were the driver was admitting guilt no one would ever get found not guilty. All you are saying by completing and returning the NIP is, “Yes, I was the driver of that vehicle at that time, now prove I have done something wrong.”

Foxstein:
If dar didn’t hit anything or commit any other offence he’s better off pleading his innocence early rather than waiting to go to court.

Of course he is saying he is not guilty, innocent, at the moment, or at least he will be if he gets a follow up to the return of the NIP saying they are taking it further. At that point he will say he is not guilty and wishes to go to court if they are offering a Fixed Penalty or will plead not guilty when he attends the court. Even then there is no onus on him under the British legal system for him to prove innocence. The whole system is based on innocent until proved guilty and the prosecution side have to do all the proving.

Foxstein:
Not trying to prove your innocence is a sure fire way of looking guilty.

I really hope you are never called for jury duty, if you are the person in the dock is [zb]ed before the trial even starts. :wink:

Seriously, if you ever get in this situation get legal advice ASAP because otherwise you could hang yourself out to dry.

Have to disagree with that bit about NIP’s not being about admitting guilt. In most cases once you have completed a NIP nominating yourself as the driver, you are then considered to be guilty, hence the offer of fixed penalty, driver improvement course or worse.

Of course you are considered guilty, they wouldn’t be trying to punish you otherwise, but that still isn’t admitting guilt. Being considered guilty and admitting it are not the same thing. Completing the NIP as required by law is simply acknowledging you were the driver at the time, nothing more than that. That’s why the follow up letter offering a Fixed Penalty for instance gives you the option to decline it and go to court. If by completing the NIP you were admitting guilt you wouldn’t have that option, no need to go to court because you have said you are guilty.

I know this is TruckNet and we do like to find people guilty without know all, or even any, of the facts; that truck rolled over on the roundabout so the driver must have been driving too fast or that truck went into the central reservation so the driver must have fallen asleep for instance, but thankfully the legal system doesn’t, or isn’t supposed to, work that way. :wink:

This is exactly where the problem lies. When you go to court, what evidence is used to prove you were the driver? The NIP you completed! Therefore you have just incriminated yourself.

None of which is admitting guilt.

72

The point I was trying to make was the fact that in previous posts it was mentioned that Dar did the wrong thing by sending his tacho in. Although we don’t know what the alleged offence is yet. I cannot see how sending this in can affect the outcome in anyway. Imagine if the police had turned up at his door to question him about the alleged offence and Dar said “couldn’t have been me guv 'cos I was parked up at the time”. “prove it !” says copper, " here’s my tacho, look!" " Ah right no problem sir must be someone trying it on, we’ll do him for insurance fraud and wasting police time" ( I know the last bit’s unlikely). This is what Dar has done by letter
If the police questioned you about a serious crime you wouldn’t keep quiet if you had an alibi would you. " where were you on the night of the 4th Mr xxxx?" mmm I’ll keep quiet it’s up to them to prove my guilt, instead of saying " I was in Australia at the time, here’s proof" shows tickets, stamped passport. End of case!
No you don’t have to prove your innocence, but if you are it helps if you do, and can prove it.

73

Just bumping this…Dar,any news shag?

74

ShropsBri:
Just bumping this…Dar,any news shag?

I could check the local newspaper to see if I can find any news about this. :wink: :smiley:

75

Sent NIP.

No news. Don’t know if that’s good or bad.

Is there a time limit to them acting on this?

76

Dunno…You know when you take out car insurance most places now ask if you want legal cover…If you’ve taken that out it should cover you for a brief to deal with this.
As far as I know the legal cover is just that…I mean it’s not restricted to your car,it covers anything.

Maybe worth a look before the ‘press’ gets their hands on it,you know what they’re like,make anything up they will.

77

I would doubt you can get into Dover without being caught on a camera. That could prove you tacho clock is accurate and you were parked up at the specific time that someone has decided you are a candidate to pay for some previously done damage. Been caught in this scam before in London, witness was a bus driver from the other side of London. My gaffer hired a private detective and the unknown bus driving witness was going out with the guys sister in law or something like that. Dropped their case and did him for all sorts of things and made him pay for my guvnors expenses. Good luck mate.

78

dar1976:
Sent NIP.

No news. Don’t know if that’s good or bad.

Is there a time limit to them acting on this?

They have to issue you with a summons within 6 months of when the prosecutor certifies there is enough evidence to charge you.

79

Thanks for the advice guys.

I shall be in contact with the legal helpline later today and see what they say. No harm in getting advice especially as I pay for the availability of the service with my premium.

6 months of sweating it out then :frowning:

80

Just one little question on this one.

Dar, how did the police get enough info to suspect that your vehicle was involved in the alleged incident?

Some ‘witness’ actually saw and wrote down the reg. no. of your wagon?

OR
The company logo was on the side of the wagon?

OR

They went to whoever you delivered to and asked them ‘Whos wagon was that delivering to you half an hour ago?’

OR was it the people to whom you delivered the furniture?

or what?

I think you could reasonably ask the police WHY they suspect that your wagon was involved in the incident.

Good Luck with it, we are ALL behind you,

LandyLad