I recently became employed for the first time in 20yrs. When I signed up I signed out of the 10hr+ night working rule, limiting myself to 10hr night shifts as a max (hoping it would discourage them from using me for night work too often). Earlier this week I did a shift for an external contract which, having done it before, I know is easily 12hrs+. The shift began at 16:00. When I finished almost 14hrs later I gently reminded the planner I’d signed out of such shifts & could he please try not to rota me for this contract again. In a very snotty manner I was told it wasn’t a night shift unless the shift commenced between 00:00 & 03:59 & as such this rule didn’t apply. I tried to point out the stupidity of his logic; using his interpretation I could be rostered for 15hr shifts regularly beginning 16:00 even though by any idiot’s definition that’s night working!! As he didn’t have the communal brain cell he didn’t back down.
Please can someone reassure me my interpretation is correct; any shift incorporating work between 00:00 - 03:59 is a night shift & therefore should be limited to 10hrs working (for planning purposes) where the driver has opted out of the extension to this rule?
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matto75:
I recently became employed for the first time in 20yrs. When I signed up I signed out of the 10hr+ night working rule, limiting myself to 10hr night shifts as a max (hoping it would discourage them from using me for night work too often). Earlier this week I did a shift for an external contract which, having done it before, I know is easily 12hrs+. The shift began at 16:00. When I finished almost 14hrs later I gently reminded the planner I’d signed out of such shifts & could he please try not to rota me for this contract again. In a very snotty manner I was told it wasn’t a night shift unless the shift commenced between 00:00 & 03:59 & as such this rule didn’t apply. I tried to point out the stupidity of his logic; using his interpretation I could be rostered for 15hr shifts regularly beginning 16:00 even though by any idiot’s definition that’s night working!! As he didn’t have the communal brain cell he didn’t back down.
Please can someone reassure me my interpretation is correct; any shift incorporating work between 00:00 - 03:59 is a night shift & therefore should be limited to 10hrs working (for planning purposes) where the driver has opted out of the extension to this rule?
As far as the night time hours are concerned you are correct and the planner was talking rubbish 
If a mobile worker does any work between the hours of 00:00 to 04:00 he/she is classed as a night time worker and unless an opt out agreement is in place is limited to 10 hours working time in a 24 hour period.
(For PCV drivers night time working is any work done between 01:00 and 05:00)
You don’t opt out of the extension you opt out of the 10 hour rule, every mobile worker is limited to 10 hours working time when on nights the only legal way to do more than 10 hours working time on nights is to sign an opt out agreement.
Obviously I’ve no way of knowing what you signed, it could be some company rule that allows you to opt out of the opt out agreement that the company has in place 
Far as I know you cannot opt-out of the 10 hour night working limit on an individual basis - the opt-out is a collective agreement which covers all workers in a given workplace.
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Roymondo:
Far as I know you cannot opt-out of the 10 hour night working limit on an individual basis - the opt-out is a collective agreement which covers all workers in a given workplace.
Spot on, It doesn’t need to be every worker in a given workplace it just has to be a group of people, a group being everyone doing the same job, but your right that individuals doing the same job as the rest of the group cannot opt out by themselves.
Also it’s nothing to do with shift length, it’s only the working time (driving + other work) that matters, so you could still do a 15 hour shift if it has 5 or more hours of break / poa in it
tachograph:
Roymondo:
Far as I know you cannot opt-out of the 10 hour night working limit on an individual basis - the opt-out is a collective agreement which covers all workers in a given workplace.
Spot on, It doesn’t need to be every worker in a given workplace it just has to be a group of people, a group being everyone doing the same job, but your right that individuals doing the same job as the rest of the group cannot opt out by themselves.
The opt out only lasts for 5 years, and must be retaken at regular intervals to maintain its legality, usually the majority opt out of the night working regulations, however any employee can opt to work under the night wtd at any time, they must give his / her employer 7 days notice in writing.
Grumpy Dad:
tachograph:
Roymondo:
Far as I know you cannot opt-out of the 10 hour night working limit on an individual basis - the opt-out is a collective agreement which covers all workers in a given workplace.
Spot on, It doesn’t need to be every worker in a given workplace it just has to be a group of people, a group being everyone doing the same job, but your right that individuals doing the same job as the rest of the group cannot opt out by themselves.
The opt out only lasts for 5 years, and must be retaken at regular intervals to maintain its legality, usually the majority opt out of the night working regulations, however any employee can opt to work under the night wtd at any time, they must give his / her employer 7 days notice in writing.
What’s the basis for that assertion? I’m not aware of any such provision in the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005.
Grumpy Dad:
The opt out only lasts for 5 years, and must be retaken at regular intervals to maintain its legality, usually the majority opt out of the night working regulations, however any employee can opt to work under the night wtd at any time, they must give his / her employer 7 days notice in writing.
You’re right about the workforce agreements lasting a maximum of 5 years but not about any driver being able to opt out of the night time working time limit.
I believe any worker can opt out of the working time regulations 1998 (the general WTD) but mobile workers don’t work to the general WTD mobile workers work to the Road transport working time regulations 2005.
On the other hand if you know different feel free to post evidence that will prove us wrong 
tachograph:
Grumpy Dad:
The opt out only lasts for 5 years, and must be retaken at regular intervals to maintain its legality, usually the majority opt out of the night working regulations, however any employee can opt to work under the night wtd at any time, they must give his / her employer 7 days notice in writing.
You’re right about the workforce agreements lasting a maximum of 5 years but not about any driver being able to opt out of the night time working time limit.
I believe any worker can opt out of the working time regulations 1998 (the general WTD) but mobile workers don’t work to the general WTD mobile workers work to the Road transport working time regulations 2005.
On the other hand if you know different feel free to post evidence that will prove us wrong
It’s an OPTION, the majority decision ( usually opt out ) is how the company work, and its taken for granted all drivers wish to work to this method, but it’s an individuals OPTION if he / she doesn’t want to work under the majority opt out, they can submit a written request to be removed from the opt out.
If a company has a big turnover of drivers, an opt out taken in 2016 may not be relevant to the drivers working for the company in 2019, the majority of whom may not wish to opt out but the company has a valid opt out agreement in place made by ex employees
Grumpy Dad:
tachograph:
Grumpy Dad:
The opt out only lasts for 5 years, and must be retaken at regular intervals to maintain its legality, usually the majority opt out of the night working regulations, however any employee can opt to work under the night wtd at any time, they must give his / her employer 7 days notice in writing.
You’re right about the workforce agreements lasting a maximum of 5 years but not about any driver being able to opt out of the night time working time limit.
I believe any worker can opt out of the working time regulations 1998 (the general WTD) but mobile workers don’t work to the general WTD mobile workers work to the Road transport working time regulations 2005.
On the other hand if you know different feel free to post evidence that will prove us wrong
It’s an OPTION, the majority decision ( usually opt out ) is how the company work, and its taken for granted all drivers wish to work to this method, but it’s an individuals OPTION if he / she doesn’t want to work under the majority opt out, they can submit a written request to be removed from the opt out.
If a company has a big turnover of drivers, an opt out taken in 2016 may not be relevant to the drivers working for the company in 2019, the majority of whom may not wish to opt out but the company has a valid opt out agreement in place made by ex employees
Have you got a link to the legislation that says that?
The relevant legislation you already have as in the form of the opt out which the majority of drivers have agreed to.
There is no requirement by law that a driver has to opt out, hence being given the option. A company whose employees opt out in a majority are entitled to continue without obstruction from the WTD regulations, a driver who does not wish to opt out cannot be forced to work outside the regulations.
I to would like to see a link to the regulations that say individual drivers can insist on sticking to the working time regulations 10 hour night limit when there’s a workforce agreement in place.
It may be that some companies allow individual drivers to unoficially opt out of the workforce agreement, I imagine it could even be part of a collective agreement with some trade unions where there’s a collective agreement in place, but I’m not aware of any law that says an individual can insist on sticking to the working time regulations limits where there’s a workforce agreement in place.
RT(WT)R 2005 - Workforce Agreements
- An agreement is a workforce agreement for the purposes of these Regulations if the following conditions are satisfied–
~snip~
(c)it applies either—
(i)to all of the relevant members of the workforce, or
(ii)to all of the relevant members of the workforce who belong to a particular group;
~snip~
- For the purposes of this Schedule—
“a particular group” is a group of the relevant members of a workforce who undertake a particular function, work at a particular workplace or belong to a particular department or unit within their employer’s business;
“relevant members of the workforce” are all of the workers employed by a particular employer, excluding any worker whose terms and conditions of employment are provided for, wholly or in part, in a collective agreement;
edit: You posted while I was typing 
Grumpy Dad:
The relevant legislation you already have as in the form of the opt out which the majority of drivers have agreed to.
There is no requirement by law that a driver has to opt out, hence being given the option. A company whose employees opt out in a majority are entitled to continue without obstruction from the WTD regulations, a driver who does not wish to opt out cannot be forced to work outside the regulations.
See the quote above, no mention of individuals being able to opt out of workforce agreements, in fact it clearly says that a workforce agreement has to apply to all relevant members of a workforce or group.