New rules for recording drivers activities [Merged]

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
61

robbo99.:
Always winds me up when as a truck driver I have to account for every minute of my time with manual entries, yet the majority of road users ie car drivers can pretty much do as they like, same with speed limiters, if it were really down to road safety and emissions then ALL vehicles would be fitted with them, governments only ever like to bully the minority rather than the majority.

New cars sold from next month in Europe WILL be fitted with speed limiters. It’s not been decided if the UK will follow suit.
I guess it will apply to all new vehicles, not sure about motorbikes though.

62

shullbit:
I . An analogue record sheet being a log book or such like.

Where did you get your definition from please that a log book is an “analogue record” and that doesn’t just refer to the back of a manual tacho disk?

63

stu675:

robbo99.:
Always winds me up when as a truck driver I have to account for every minute of my time with manual entries, yet the majority of road users ie car drivers can pretty much do as they like, same with speed limiters, if it were really down to road safety and emissions then ALL vehicles would be fitted with them, governments only ever like to bully the minority rather than the majority.

New cars sold from next month in Europe WILL be fitted with speed limiters. It’s not been decided if the UK will follow suit.
I guess it will apply to all new vehicles, not sure about motorbikes though.

Can’t wait to see how the average Joe deals with a speed limiter in a car. Might give lorry drivers a bit more respect when faced with the same issues.

64

tachograph:

fnv:
For those of you who predominantly do a non-driving job and do driving under EU regulations occasionally, see attached about changes to record keeping for non-driving hours:

More onerous tacho EU requirements on drivers! - Backhouse Jones

Now this is a right pain in the proverbial for me as I work Mon-Fri in the office and then often every other weekend I’ll do a day of driving…so now according to this, I have to do a written manual tachograph entry for each day in the office, whereas previously I’ve just carried round extract of electronic timesheet from my main job. :imp:

There’s no evidence that the requirements for record keeping have changed, you’re quoting a company that wants to sell a service.

As far as I can see that whole thread is based on a myth that was started to scare people into buying a service.

Out of interest, why start a new thread when the other one on the same subject is still running, it just causes confusion :confused:

trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewto … cdbb2de4d6

Sent from my mobile.

Ahhhh noted apologies on second thread, been so long since I’ve used a forum I’ve completely forgot my forum etiquette!

65

robbo99.:
Can’t wait to see how the average Joe deals with a speed limiter in a car. Might give lorry drivers a bit more respect when faced with the same issues.

It’ll be carnage that will make idiotic elephant racing by trucks pale into insignificance. I have just driven back from Cardiff where I’ve been watching a concert, I set the cruise to 80 (yeah, shoot me now) and you wouldn’t believe the number of cars I pulled out to overtake only to have them speed up and undertake me, I’d drop back in behind them only to have them brake and slow down! :imp:

66

Ignore my other thread, I didn’t realise the matter was already underway!

Now this is a right pain in the proverbial for me as I work Mon-Fri in office and then often every other weekend I’ll do a day of driving…so now according to this, I have to do a written manual tachograph entry for each day in the office (it’s separate from driving), whereas previously I’ve just carried round extract of electronic timesheet from my main job. :imp:

It does appear that it’s more of a tightening of something that was already required now I’ve read above, but that’s still unreasonable if you ask me - I’m tempted to try just scanning a section of tachograph chart with my name and card number on it then print it off multiple times, at least then at the end of the office day I can just draw the line for hours worked and then put it in the diary. Considering Novadata have published a similar article on the changes here: Manual Tachograph Entry Chart and then linked to their own manual entry chart here Manual Tachograph Entry Chart it would seem that I could get away with this.

Just a thought for those who do the same thing mind, you’ll either have to do a chart either side of the times when tacho is in the head unit, or do a manual entry on the tacho for the first part of the day before you start work and for the bit after the day you finish work. I can foresee that’s easy to forget.

67

Having found that the particular tacho did not like entries with a 2021 date I shall be proceding as before with the standard few minutes addition to the last shift finish time and then show rest until a few minutes before the commencement of a shift however many months later. I shall then do a print out and write on the back that: “I am not employed as a lorry or bus driver, I am semi retired, and any work I might have done will have been between the hours of 0800 to 1800 Monday to Friday only (true).” Since it is 60 hours from 1800 Friday to 0600 Monday, which would be the earliest I would be starting a driving shift, then I will have complied with possible rest requirements (unless something unusual has occurred in the previous 3 weeks). The day of the week on which this new driving shift starts will determine whether any additional information is added to clarify the length of rest immediately prior to this shift. I shall retain the print out for 28 days and provide a copy to the operator.

Trying to enter 28 days worth or more of start/finish times into a tacho is simply not a practicable proposition - too many opportunities to make a mistake in the two hours it will take to do.

They want hours of work recorded on a print out… they will have one. And if they can’t understand it then maybe they have a problem with the English language.

68

fnv:

tachograph:

fnv:
For those of you who predominantly do a non-driving job and do driving under EU regulations occasionally, see attached about changes to record keeping for non-driving hours:

More onerous tacho EU requirements on drivers! - Backhouse Jones

Now this is a right pain in the proverbial for me as I work Mon-Fri in the office and then often every other weekend I’ll do a day of driving…so now according to this, I have to do a written manual tachograph entry for each day in the office, whereas previously I’ve just carried round extract of electronic timesheet from my main job. :imp:

There’s no evidence that the requirements for record keeping have changed, you’re quoting a company that wants to sell a service.

As far as I can see that whole thread is based on a myth that was started to scare people into buying a service.

Out of interest, why start a new thread when the other one on the same subject is still running, it just causes confusion :confused:

trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewto … cdbb2de4d6

Sent from my mobile.

Ahhhh noted apologies on second thread, been so long since I’ve used a forum I’ve completely forgot my forum etiquette!

It’s OK mate, I’ve moved yours and merged the two topics together here in this forum. :smiley:

69

I’m an agency driver that works in an office Monday-Friday, and drives HGVs on weekends, (at most) one day per fortnight.

I’ve been doing this record-keeping ever since I restarted HGV driving last year - doing manual entries for every day spent in the office - at least, a reasonable approximation of my office hours. I don’t record it as to-the-minute accurate, but just record 9am-5:30pm with an hour for lunch. In reality, my hours will be slightly different to that, but my actual hours are always well within the requirements of the regs that the deviations are irrelevant.

I’ll typically spend a minimum of 20 minutes at the start of a shift (sometimes as much as 40 minutes) doing manual entries, because it takes so long just pressing the buttons, and I’m careful to make sure that everything is correct so that I don’t get an infringement. Working for a large supermarket chain, they’re pretty hot on telling us that we have to be absolutely perfect on manual entries, so they’ve never complained about the amount of time it takes.

Note that if I have a 3-week gap between shifts, it’s actually impossible for me to do a proper set of manual entries. This is because the tachograph head has a limit on the number of manual entries that can be made per card insertion. Each working day has four mode changes (morning work period, lunch break, afternoon work period, overnight rest). Three weeks, five working days per week means sixty separate entries, and the tacho head simply will not allow this many manual entries. In theory I could miss out the lunch break to reduce the number of mode changes, but then I’d be recording myself has having broken WTD requirements for mid-shift breaks.

This might just be a limitation of the tacho heads that our trucks have, but I suspect that it might have been part of the EU specification - the digital tacho cards are designed to have enough storage for a specific number of mode changes before it starts overwriting previous data; if they allowed an unlimited number of manual entries, then it might be possible to put in a huge number of manual entries in order to “lose” the record of a previous infringement.

I’m reasonably sure that the regs used to be that you only required records for weeks where you drove under EU regs. If you didn’t drive under EU regs for the whole week, you weren’t required to have a record. However, I’m currently unable to find evidence to back this up, so maybe this has changed (or it was never true in the first place).

70

MrFlibble:
I’m an agency driver that works in an office Monday-Friday, and drives HGVs on weekends, (at most) one day per fortnight.

I’ve been doing this record-keeping ever since I restarted HGV driving last year - doing manual entries for every day spent in the office - at least, a reasonable approximation of my office hours. I don’t record it as to-the-minute accurate, but just record 9am-5:30pm with an hour for lunch. In reality, my hours will be slightly different to that, but my actual hours are always well within the requirements of the regs that the deviations are irrelevant.

I’ll typically spend a minimum of 20 minutes at the start of a shift (sometimes as much as 40 minutes) doing manual entries, because it takes so long just pressing the buttons, and I’m careful to make sure that everything is correct so that I don’t get an infringement. Working for a large supermarket chain, they’re pretty hot on telling us that we have to be absolutely perfect on manual entries, so they’ve never complained about the amount of time it takes.

Note that if I have a 3-week gap between shifts, it’s actually impossible for me to do a proper set of manual entries. This is because the tachograph head has a limit on the number of manual entries that can be made per card insertion. Each working day has four mode changes (morning work period, lunch break, afternoon work period, overnight rest). Three weeks, five working days per week means sixty separate entries, and the tacho head simply will not allow this many manual entries. In theory I could miss out the lunch break to reduce the number of mode changes, but then I’d be recording myself has having broken WTD requirements for mid-shift breaks.

This might just be a limitation of the tacho heads that our trucks have, but I suspect that it might have been part of the EU specification - the digital tacho cards are designed to have enough storage for a specific number of mode changes before it starts overwriting previous data; if they allowed an unlimited number of manual entries, then it might be possible to put in a huge number of manual entries in order to “lose” the record of a previous infringement.

I’m reasonably sure that the regs used to be that you only required records for weeks where you drove under EU regs. If you didn’t drive under EU regs for the whole week, you weren’t required to have a record. However, I’m currently unable to find evidence to back this up, so maybe this has changed (or it was never true in the first place).

I am in the same boat as you exactly I think, but I work 8 - 4:30pm Monday to Thursday then 8-3:30pm on a Friday in an office, with 1 HGV shift every other week at most (my last shift was 3 weeks ago). I had previously carried a diary, and uploaded everything other than HGV work as “?”, but I don’t really know how I am going to do my manual entry on my next shift this Sunday if I am to follow these new rules…

71

stu675:

shullbit:
I . An analogue record sheet being a log book or such like.

Where did you get your definition from please that a log book is an “analogue record” and that doesn’t just refer to the back of a manual tacho disk?

show me where it says that analogue specifically means on the back of a tacho sheet, an old paper map is considered an ‘‘analogue’’ map for example.
One definition of Analogue is that it is a NON DIGITAL MEDIA, a log book IS a form of non digital media, therefore a log book could be said to be ANALOGUE.

72

shullbit:
show me where it says that analogue specifically means on the back of a tacho sheet, an old paper map is considered an ‘‘analogue’’ map for example.
One definition of Analogue is that it is a NON DIGITAL MEDIA, a log book IS a form of non digital media, therefore a log book could be said to be ANALOGUE.

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73

shullbit:

stu675:

shullbit:
I . An analogue record sheet being a log book or such like.

Where did you get your definition from please that a log book is an “analogue record” and that doesn’t just refer to the back of a manual tacho disk?

show me where it says that analogue specifically means on the back of a tacho sheet, an old paper map is considered an ‘‘analogue’’ map for example.
One definition of Analogue is that it is a NON DIGITAL MEDIA, a log book IS a form of non digital media, therefore a log book could be said to be ANALOGUE.

Ah, my diary is still good to use then reading that?

74

Goff118:

shullbit:

stu675:

shullbit:
I . An analogue record sheet being a log book or such like.

Where did you get your definition from please that a log book is an “analogue record” and that doesn’t just refer to the back of a manual tacho disk?

show me where it says that analogue specifically means on the back of a tacho sheet, an old paper map is considered an ‘‘analogue’’ map for example.
One definition of Analogue is that it is a NON DIGITAL MEDIA, a log book IS a form of non digital media, therefore a log book could be said to be ANALOGUE.

Ah, my diary is still good to use then reading that?

Yeh I would use a diary, been stopped a couple of times and they was more than happy with my diary entries. The definitions and rules on the governments website contradict themselves in many places and if you did fall foul of the law one of these legal loophole lawyers would have no problem finding said loophole. Until I see the definitions tightened up in print on .gov to avoid any reasonable doubt, I will carry on doing what I am doing.

75

MrFlibble:

shullbit:
show me where it says that analogue specifically means on the back of a tacho sheet, an old paper map is considered an ‘‘analogue’’ map for example.
One definition of Analogue is that it is a NON DIGITAL MEDIA, a log book IS a form of non digital media, therefore a log book could be said to be ANALOGUE.

0

And from the same website… Manual records
A digital or smart tachograph offers the ability for a driver to enter activities carried out by them away from their vehicle. This is by means of the manual input facility in the tachograph. There is however no requirement to make a manual record on a driver card where all the activity has already been captured on an analogue record sheet. :laughing:

76

shullbit:

MrFlibble:

shullbit:
show me where it says that analogue specifically means on the back of a tacho sheet, an old paper map is considered an ‘‘analogue’’ map for example.
One definition of Analogue is that it is a NON DIGITAL MEDIA, a log book IS a form of non digital media, therefore a log book could be said to be ANALOGUE.

0

And from the same website… Manual records
A digital or smart tachograph offers the ability for a driver to enter activities carried out by them away from their vehicle. This is by means of the manual input facility in the tachograph. There is however no requirement to make a manual record on a driver card where all the activity has already been captured on an analogue record sheet. :laughing:

Perfect, that will do me, thanks!

77

shullbit:
And from the same website… Manual records
A digital or smart tachograph offers the ability for a driver to enter activities carried out by them away from their vehicle. This is by means of the manual input facility in the tachograph. There is however no requirement to make a manual record on a driver card where all the activity has already been captured on an analogue record sheet. :laughing:

However, I’m not entirely convinced that by “record sheet”, they don’t mean “analogue tacho chart”. In the paragraphs following your quotation, they talk about making manual records “on the reverse of the record sheet” if you’re doing work away from the vehicle, or if the tacho malfunctions. These are normally situations where you would fill in the back of the tacho chart.

Unfortunately, this “guidance” webpage is not sufficiently clear in its definitions to be absolutely sure. “Record sheet” is, however, the term used by the original EU Tacho Regulations to refer to a tacho chart:

EU 3821/85:
DEFINITIONS
…
Record sheet means:
a sheet designed to accept and retain recorded data, to be placed in the recording equipment and on which the marking devices of the latter inscribe a continuous record of the information to be recorded;

I think the meaning of the section you’ve quoted is “If you’ve been driving a vehicle with an analogue tacho (and have charts for that work), then you don’t also need to make manual entries into a digital tacho to cover that work” (for situations where people are switching between analogue and digital tachos).

78

Goff118:

shullbit:

MrFlibble:

shullbit:
show me where it says that analogue specifically means on the back of a tacho sheet, an old paper map is considered an ‘‘analogue’’ map for example.
One definition of Analogue is that it is a NON DIGITAL MEDIA, a log book IS a form of non digital media, therefore a log book could be said to be ANALOGUE.

0

And from the same website… Manual records
A digital or smart tachograph offers the ability for a driver to enter activities carried out by them away from their vehicle. This is by means of the manual input facility in the tachograph. There is however no requirement to make a manual record on a driver card where all the activity has already been captured on an analogue record sheet. :laughing:

Perfect, that will do me, thanks!

No, a diary is not a legal way for you to make your records, but it may be accepted, but I personally wouldn’t leave myself open like that.

Your options are

Manual entry
Written on the back of a printout
Written on the back of a wax chart.

That’s it.

I always preferred doing manual entries for when my working often wasn’t driving, but if there’s too much to enter, then write it on the back of a printout.

A logbook is only acceptable when that’s what you’ve used to make a record under GB domestic driving.

79

No, a diary is not a legal way for you to make your records, but it may be accepted, but I personally wouldn’t leave myself open like that.

Your options are

Manual entry
Written on the back of a printout
Written on the back of a wax chart.

That’s it.

I always preferred doing manual entries for when my working often wasn’t driving, but if there’s too much to enter, then write it on the back of a printout.

A logbook is only acceptable when that’s what you’ve used to make a record under GB domestic driving.

So for example when I start work on Sunday, would I make a printout and write the last 3 weeks of my non-driving working hours and breaks, or would I do it on the printout at the end of my shift and detail it on the back of that?

80

You should do it at (or before) the start of the shift, so that if you are stopped during the shift, you are able to provide the officer with a full record of your previous work.

Now, whether you have to do it on an actual printout or just on unused printout paper is one question; the regs say:

This record shall be entered either manually on a record sheet, a printout or by use of manual input facilities on recording equipment.

so in theory it must be an actual printout; however, it doesn’t say when the printout must have been made, so in theory I think you could pre-print a load of printouts on one shift, so that you can manually fill them in at home before your next shift, so that you arrive at work with your records all pre-prepared.