windrush:
The Late Gordon Oliver, an Atkinson driver with Joseph Hoyles at Darley Dale, used to say that you could allways tell the Atky driver’s in a cafe as their plate was three inches to the left of them! A legacy of the offset steering wheel.Pete.
Morris at the Derry had offset cutlery for all Atky drivers back in the day so they where made to
feel normal. 
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anorak:
There is a Viewline in preservation with a box-section frame fitted inside the cab, presumably to prevent those things happening although, given its age, the ash frame has possibly rotted away and the additional fabrication would be a cheaper remedy than rebuilding the cab.
That work was done when it was rebuilt in service in the 1980s, and extended with a large sleeper.
My Viewline, which I sold in 2004, was rebuilt with a complete new timber frame in 1990/1. There was a little discussion of it last Spring on this website, when it went to a bodyshop for its new owner’s livery, and it was said that only minor work was required to the steel rear dash, and not to the frame. In 2012, it was still wearing the same paint I’d had put on in 1991, and yet it had lived most of the time between 1991 and 2004 outside all year round.
240 Gardner:
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anorak:
There is a Viewline in preservation with a box-section frame fitted inside the cab, presumably to prevent those things happening although, given its age, the ash frame has possibly rotted away and the additional fabrication would be a cheaper remedy than rebuilding the cab.That work was done when it was rebuilt in service in the 1980s, and extended with a large sleeper.
My Viewline, which I sold in 2004, was rebuilt with a complete new timber frame in 1990/1. There was a little discussion of it last Spring on this website, when it went to a bodyshop for its new owner’s livery, and it was said that only minor work was required to the steel rear dash, and not to the frame. In 2012, it was still wearing the same paint I’d had put on in 1991, and yet it had lived most of the time between 1991 and 2004 outside all year round.
That’s the difference between a proper restoration and a tart-up job. I was involved with classic car restoration in the 1980s and '90s, and much of the work involved cutting out “overplating”, which caused accelerated rusting of the original panels, due to trapped moisture between them and the added sheet metal. The resultant repair was therefore much bigger and more involved than if the thing had been left to rot on its own! I fear that many of the shiny “restored” vehicles in the shows will end up being broken in the future, for this reason- subsequent work will simply be too costly to contemplate, once the rot has taken hold again. It sounds like your Viewline is one which will see many happy owners out, with minimal attention in the future.
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anorak:240 Gardner:
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anorak:
There is a Viewline in preservation with a box-section frame fitted inside the cab, presumably to prevent those things happening although, given its age, the ash frame has possibly rotted away and the additional fabrication would be a cheaper remedy than rebuilding the cab.That work was done when it was rebuilt in service in the 1980s, and extended with a large sleeper.
My Viewline, which I sold in 2004, was rebuilt with a complete new timber frame in 1990/1. There was a little discussion of it last Spring on this website, when it went to a bodyshop for its new owner’s livery, and it was said that only minor work was required to the steel rear dash, and not to the frame. In 2012, it was still wearing the same paint I’d had put on in 1991, and yet it had lived most of the time between 1991 and 2004 outside all year round.
That’s the difference between a proper restoration and a tart-up job. I was involved with classic car restoration in the 1980s and '90s, and much of the work involved cutting out “overplating”, which caused accelerated rusting of the original panels, due to trapped moisture between them and the added sheet metal. The resultant repair was therefore much bigger and more involved than if the thing had been left to rot on its own! I fear that many of the shiny “restored” vehicles in the shows will end up being broken in the future, for this reason- subsequent work will simply be too costly to contemplate, once the rot has taken hold again. It sounds like your Viewline is one which will see many happy owners out, with minimal attention in the future.
Thank yuo, and yes, you’re right. I’ve seen many an Atkinson restoration which has involved plating over the back dash. This one was done whilst in service, but shows the end result:
And how it was fixed:
Bewick:
Thinking about again Bri,I think it was a mid/later '73 shot,they did change the crashbars over the 70’s,from heavy cast through to lighter rolled ones,that Atky looks like it had one in between,still cast but lighter than the origional bars fitted on the MK1’s and early Borderers,does that make sense wor Hinney / Cheers Dennis.
The later top bumpers certainly weren’t as strong…
As no WHITTY retort came ,(that i can see ) Hans Anderson warked from Odense to Kopenhavn (he was offered a lift in a Borderer but did not want to risk it in a plastic cabin on a truck with fifty pence shape front wheels as it felt ) i can risk to be here again , such quality when windcreens fall to ground and brake not release and global warming from Gardner exhaust , hours to get at motor for overhaul and what of Backwards running ? Class of thier own ja, no other so bad ? you could be right , oh but Seddon -Atkinson 400 that made Borderer seem better no ?
^^^ sort him out Dennis 
240 Gardner:
Bewick:
Thinking about again Bri,I think it was a mid/later '73 shot,they did change the crashbars over the 70’s,from heavy cast through to lighter rolled ones,that Atky looks like it had one in between,still cast but lighter than the origional bars fitted on the MK1’s and early Borderers,does that make sense wor Hinney / Cheers Dennis.The later top bumpers certainly weren’t as strong…
I was wondering when that picture was going to appear…
Bon soir Monsieur Saviem. When would you say that Atkinson started to lose the plot on build quality? Would it have coincided, roughly, with the launch of the Mk2? I think I have read, somewhere, that the Viewline used to suffer from windscreen problems- cracking or falling out, something like that. There is a Viewline in preservation with a box-section frame fitted inside the cab, presumably to prevent those things happening although, given its age, the ash frame has possibly rotted away and the additional fabrication would be a cheaper remedy than rebuilding the cab.
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Morning all,anorak, I`ve pondered your question for a couple of days, to give you my answer. Now I think that there are probably better qualified contributors to this site than I, who could possibly give a better balanced view from their own personal experience on the “quality”, of the product. I think here of Bewick, Gardner 240, 8LXBV8BRIAN, and marky… let alone the countless numbers who drove the lorries for a living…why Gentlemen have you not replied…“rose tinted spectacles”■■?
Let me make my position clear, I loved Atkinson lorries, I earned a very good living buying and selling them from the 60s into the 70s, and regarded them as simply the best premium vehicle on the market. Mk 1s MK2s Borderers, and Black Knights through to Defenders. Good simple basic designs, utilising premium components, built well,( having the odd idiosyncrasy), cheap to run, and easy to repair.
But as with all UK manufacturers the product was specified to be used within the peculiar legislative framework that succesive British Governments anti road transport attitude promoted. Hence when continental produced products became available, at subsidised prices, built to a heavier specification they found themselves competing on a playing field that was anything but level.
It is easy with hindsight to criticise the coachbuilt cab, yet this was the norm for specialist builders, it had its advantages, just as its disadvantages. The same applied across Europe, I can well remember a Belgian operator praising his Krupp/Rolls Atkinson, and telling me how much better it was than his old Bollekens coachbuilt AEC, whose doors would not stay closed at all!
You raise the question of the Viewline cab, and I cannot improve on Chris`s (Gardner 240) answer, a good workplace, but probably the style, and design exceeded the available technology! (in the case of my own Viewline, well it had a sort of cross bracket on the roof…I never removed it)!!
That the product could work could not be denied, Frank Carher, who ran Strathclyde transport achieved low cost intense use from his Mk1s and 2S Gardner and Rolls powered. And I regularly used to see a MK1 from Central Road transport at Crewkerne when I was Paris bound in my little Foden.
But Atkinson suffered from that major problem caused by Britains industrial unrest in the 70s. The sporadic component supply, rampant inflation, and internal bickering at the works. Vehicles were built, to all intent, to the same specification…but each one would have diferences in componentry, and unless its individual parts book stayed with the vehicle, then it was inevitable that breakdowns meant long periods of inactivity, while some obscure manufacturers part was found, to get the vehicle mobile again!!
From my humble observation point working b for a Dealer, Atkinsons Production, and Engineering, and many times also the Sales Department seemed totally unaware that their world depended upon the end user!!! Sometimes the situation became farcical, and several times I found an ally in Tom Bennett, who worked as a liason man between the dealers and factory, who at least understood that the end user was paramount in the scheme of things. But also there was a lack of cooperation between the actual dealer network, where a silly parochial attitude was often prevalent, to the detriment of the end user, and more importantly the continuing business.
Then of course came the Seddon takeover, that was the end of quality building, the problems with the axle are well documented, why could they not get it right? I was “disciplined” by my Dealer Principal for telling the Redmond Brothers, at some function, that Seddon would reduce the quality image, and build of Atkinsons,…it was not taken well!! But by then I felt that I was merely an outsider looking in , and had decided to go, and go I did.
So personal, and subjected opinion, Im happy to take flak, and would really like to hear others views. But look at those images of the Borderer “flight deck”, makes you want to jump behind the wheel does it not?
Cheerio for now.
Bonjour, mon brave. Not really subjective, just an honest appraisal, I would say. I could never understand how it was that these supposedly intelligent, successful captains of industry could possibly think that their outmoded, uncomfortable, unreliable, freezing-in-winter, oven-like-in-summer cramped vehicles could be preferable to the imported luxury that cost considerably less, especially given that the main reason for buying the product, the Gardner engine, was in such short supply and therefore commanded a premium.
With a fair dose of nostalgia, most of us would like to do a trip or two in a Mk1, Mk2 or Borderer, but I for one wouldn’t fancy punching one up and down the country for six days every week, when I could sit in a nice warm, comfortable Volvo with more than sufficient power and a nice comfy bed at the end of the day.
The Atkinson, together with most (all?) other British lorries, were, “of their time” and when that time had run out, then, due to the lack of foresight of our industry, they were consigned to the breakers’ yard or into the heritage movement.
marky:
I was wondering when that picture was going to appear…
Well said both , i think of the talking to brick wall comment… management in own little world …the end user will demand value and compare with others … the cheap Volvo F86, design for up to 40 ton but with 20 ton load was 30 ton gross , could have a bunk and like a car to drive only better , all parts available NOW , tilt cabin ect and new in 1965 , Viking before that !!! Mk 11 Atkinson out in the 1970`s WHY BOTHER AT ALL ? it was all over before that in 1971 when after just five years in UK Volvo var nummer ett (number one ) , Mk 1 winter driving with Gardner , coat, scarf , gloves, blanket over legs , what t f … at least Leylands could go some and be warm .
carryfast-yeti:
^^^ sort him out Dennis
That “Lilladan” is defo a Troll,we ran loads of Atkis and never had one as bad as he describes,quite the opposite they all gave us excellent service,seriously !! The worst bits on some of them were those that had the Group axle and those with the David Brown 6.600 box,IIRC we only had one with both the Group and the DB box and we double shifted the bollox of it in 18mths and I sold it!Theres only one member of TNUK that has the patience to “see off” this Troll and that is our own “Super hero” “Carryfast”,unfortunately “CF” dosen’t reckon much to Gardners so he may not be prepared to help !! But if he did there would be no danger “CF” would grind him into floor with his sheer dogged determination not to ever be “out posted” by anyone!! Cheers Dennis.
Bewick:
carryfast-yeti:
^^^ sort him out DennisThat “Lilladan” is defo a Troll,we ran loads of Atkis and never had one as bad as he describes,quite the opposite they all gave us excellent service,seriously !! The worst bits on some of them were those that had the Group axle and those with the David Brown 6.600 box,IIRC we only had one with both the Group and the DB box and we double shifted the bollox of it in 18mths and I sold it!Theres only one member of TNUK that has the patience to “see off” this Troll and that is our own “Super hero” “Carryfast”,unfortunately “CF” dosen’t reckon much to Gardners so he may not be prepared to help !! But if he did there would be no danger “CF” would grind him into floor with his sheer dogged determination not to ever be “out posted” by anyone!! Cheers Dennis.
At least Lilladan’s opinions have some grounding in commonsense- his criticism of the Mk2’s cab structure is reasonable, given that he is comparing it with its 1970s competition. Others have posted on here, saying that the Leylands of the time were of a different class, for driver comfort. Cf’s the bigger troll, IMO- he starts off with his boyhood fantasies, then builds a bird’s nest of tenuously-linked opinions on top of them. Sorry if I’ve insulted your mate, Mr. Bewick.
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anorak:Bewick:
carryfast-yeti:
^^^ sort him out DennisThat “Lilladan” is defo a Troll,we ran loads of Atkis and never had one as bad as he describes,quite the opposite they all gave us excellent service,seriously !! The worst bits on some of them were those that had the Group axle and those with the David Brown 6.600 box,IIRC we only had one with both the Group and the DB box and we double shifted the bollox of it in 18mths and I sold it!Theres only one member of TNUK that has the patience to “see off” this Troll and that is our own “Super hero” “Carryfast”,unfortunately “CF” dosen’t reckon much to Gardners so he may not be prepared to help !! But if he did there would be no danger “CF” would grind him into floor with his sheer dogged determination not to ever be “out posted” by anyone!! Cheers Dennis.
At least Lilladan’s opinions have some grounding in commonsense- his criticism of the Mk2’s cab structure is reasonable, given that he is comparing it with its 1970s competition. Others have posted on here, saying that the Leylands of the time were of a different class, for driver comfort. Cf’s the bigger troll, IMO- he starts off with his boyhood fantasies, then builds a bird’s nest of tenuously-linked opinions on top of them. Sorry if I’ve insulted your mate, Mr. Bewick.
You certainly haven’t Anorak,I was just stating that the Atkys did us a good job,and were certainly a better propositoin than the F86,have a look at the threads about Burnholme Tpt of Penrith and the jokes about which of the motors was carrying the tool box and the fact that their F86’s spent a lot of time standing on the hard shoulders,what a joke,we couldn’t have put up with that kind of “Fred Karno’s” operation,obviously their traffic can’t have been “time sensitive” unlike much of ours !! Cheers Bewick.
Bewick:
You certainly haven’t Anorak,I was just stating that the Atkys did us a good job,and were certainly a better propositoin than the F86,have a look at the threads about Burnholme Tpt of Penrith and the jokes about which of the motors was carrying the tool box and the fact that their F86’s spent a lot of time standing on the hard shoulders,what a joke,we couldn’t have put up with that kind of “Fred Karno’s” operation,obviously their traffic can’t have been “time sensitive” unlike much of ours !! Cheers Bewick.
I would not insult the engineering of the Atkinson. It appears, from the many posts on this thread, that they had the details honed to perfection. What a shame the 400 was such a let-down. Why did they not just put the 400 cab onto a Mk2 chassis as it was, without meddling with a proven formula?
Our 400’s served us pretty well although of course we didn’t have any of the earlier models to compare. The first one had a DB six speeder which was soon sent back and returned with the DB four over four which was a lot better. The rest had nine speed Fullers and Eaton diffs which were the ‘Achillies Heel’ and lost teeth from the crown wheel on occasions. Their downside, apart from the cab rotting after only six years or so, was their weight! I had one for a couple of years and liked the thing.
Pete.
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anorak:Bewick:
You certainly haven’t Anorak,I was just stating that the Atkys did us a good job,and were certainly a better propositoin than the F86,have a look at the threads about Burnholme Tpt of Penrith and the jokes about which of the motors was carrying the tool box and the fact that their F86’s spent a lot of time standing on the hard shoulders,what a joke,we couldn’t have put up with that kind of “Fred Karno’s” operation,obviously their traffic can’t have been “time sensitive” unlike much of ours !! Cheers Bewick.I would not insult the engineering of the Atkinson. It appears, from the many posts on this thread, that they had the details honed to perfection. What a shame the 400 was such a let-down. Why did they not just put the 400 cab onto a Mk2 chassis as it was, without meddling with a proven formula?
When the Redmonds from Seddons got their hands on Atkinson they must have thought they’d “swum the Channel”,but they and their Seddons were always classed,and were,inferior to the great Atkinson marque which must have rankled and they had no intention of developing Atkys any further and embarked on a steady run down of Atky as well as introducing the dreadful Group axle,which didn’t help the Atky marque one iota! While the Seddon 32/4 IMO was a reliable fleet tractor it couldn’t hold a candle to the fine Atkinsons built in Walton-Le-dale.So what happened,they finally closed W-le-D and lost all the attendant expertise,Oh and when they launched the Sed/Atk (using the Atky name to help promote the new motor) the chassis that were bulit in W-le-D were superior in quality to the supposed identical chassis built at Woodstock factory,Oldham.Only my opinion which will no doubt be challenged!! 
Cheers Bewick.
The spec of the Atkinson was key to how good/reliable it was going to be of all the Atkinsons at Waugh’s only one had
the truly legend spec (my opinion) Atkinson Borderer 8lxb kirkstall front axle-fuller box-kirkstall rear axle this vehicle in its 7 year
service never had any engine-gearbox-axle problems at all just its normal servicing and yearly M.O.T. preparation it was a truly
remarkable motor LTY 126L ,when it was sold it was a little tired but still able to do a good days work.
The only thing i can remember it having was a complete wiper linkage set up spindles boxes etc they had just worn out
