Hi all,
AAAARRRRGGGHHHH! HELP PLEASE! 
I got my Class C in September last year (at the first attempt thank god), but despite studying 
the info for months, I am still confused by the rules about how much time I can spend at work as opposed to how much time I can drive. What I really want to know is WHAT IS THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF TIME I CAN SPEND ON A COMBINATION OF DRIVING AND OTHER WORK IN A GIVEN āAVERAGEā WEEK. If I agree to opt out of the WTD 48 hour limit, am I then restricted only by the Drivers Rules on Daily/weekly rest minimums or what? 
I understand the rules on driving hours ( basically 54 hours a week max / 90 hours over a 2 week period with various extensions and compensation periods which are a saga in themselves) but have been asked to waive the WTD by an employer who wants me to DRIVE about 9 hours a day and do OTHER WORK for another 3 to 4 hours a day over an average 5 day week totalling about 60 - 65 hours a week for both activities. I donāt mind doing it (got to pay for all the training costs somehow!) but not sure if this is legal or not. Can anybody put me straight on this? Iām not an idiot (so far as I know) but the different sets of regs seem designed to confuse so far as I can see.
Any help from people who have a definitive correct answer much appreciated as Iām tearing my hair out trying to get my head round all this stuff! Hopefully, (and judging by the conflicting answers Iāve had from blokes whoāve been driving for 10 years or more), this might clarify matters for quite a few people, experienced or otherwiseā¦
Thanks very much guys 
paulspain100:
Hi all,
AAAARRRRGGGHHHH! HELP PLEASE!
I got my Class C in September last year (at the first attempt thank god), but despite studyingYou cannot opt out, you need to read the RTD rules
I understand the rules on driving hours ( Maximum56 hours a week max / 90 hours over a 2 week period with various extensions and compensation periods which are a saga in themselves) but have been asked to waive the WTD by an employer who wants me to DRIVE about 9 hours a day and do OTHER WORK for another 3 to 4 hours a day over an average 5 day week totalling about 60 - 65 hours a week for both activities.
In all these rules you read, did you notice a bit that said, 11 hours rest in any 24.
I donāt mind doing it (got to pay for all the training costs somehow!) but not sure if this is legal or not. Can anybody put me straight on this? Iām not an idiot (so far as I know) but the different sets of regs seem designed to confuse so far as I can see.
Any help from people who have a definitive correct answer much appreciated as Iām tearing my hair out trying to get my head round all this stuff! Hopefully, (and judging by the conflicting answers Iāve had from blokes whoāve been driving for 10 years or more), this might clarify matters for quite a few people, experienced or otherwiseā¦
Thanks very much guys
Simplistically put
-
The daily driving time shall not exceed nine hours. However, the daily driving time may be extended to at most 10 hours not more than twice during the week.
-
The weekly driving time shall not exceed 56 hours and shall not result in the maximum weekly working time laid down in Directive 2002/15/EC being exceeded.
-
The total accumulated driving time during any two consecutive weeks shall not exceed 90 hours.
-
A driver shall take daily and weekly rest periods.
-
Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall have taken a new daily rest period. If the portion of the daily rest period which falls within that
24 hour period is at least nine hours but less than 11 hours, then the daily rest period in question shall be regarded as a reduced daily rest period.
In any two consecutive weeks a driver shall take at least:
two regular weekly rest periods, (45)
or
one regular weekly rest period and one reduced weekly rest period of at least 24 hours.
However, the reduction shall be compensated by an equivalent period of rest taken en bloc before the end of the third week following the week in question.
A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six 24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period.
Do you see how easy the rules are, if you split them up and read each article?
There is no opt out of the WTD. You can only do 90 hours work over a 2 week period. Driving restrictions are 9 max daily this can be extended twice in any week to 10 hours. The only opt out is for night working which limits you to 10 hours max. I hope this helps.
Mr B:
There is no opt out of the WTD. You can only do 90 hours driving over a 2 week period. Driving restrictions are 9 max daily this can be extended twice in any week to 10 hours. The only opt out is for night working which limits you to 10 hours max. I hope this helps.
Fixed that for ya! You need to take care when offering advice. Driving and work are different things.
Thanks all for all the advice.
To clarify my query, I already understand the rules on DRIVING HOURS which are basically clear enough, but NOT the overall limits on TOTAL WORKING HOURS (INCLUDING DRIVING) which is a different thing altogether.
From what youāve all said, it appears that in principle, and broadly speaking, I COULD do TOTAL WORKING HOURS (INCLUDING Driving of 9 hours a day) up to a MAXIMUM of 13 hours a day, five days a week, PROVIDING (and subject to the 54/36 rule, the ācompensating rest timeā rules etc);
- I take DAILY REST periods in line with the ādrivingā hours rules
- I take a 45 hour WEEKLY REST in line with the ādrivingā hours rules
- I donāt exceed 90 hours of DRIVING in any two week period in line with the ādrivingā hours rules
- I donāt exceed an AVERAGE of 48 hours per week of TOTAL WORK over a 4 month period in line with the Road Transport Working Time Directive.
Have I got this right nowā ā ?!!
Cheers,
Paul.
48 hours is work you can still have breaks and poa on top to bring you up to 84 hours per week,dont think many firms take any notice of the 48 hour rule anyway
I know for some of you āold timersā this combination of tacho hours and WTD / RTD hours probably comes as second nature to you. But why do they have to make them so ācomplicatedā?. As a newbie it is probably one of my biggest fears. Getting it completely wrong or getting it slightly wrong and being caught out by over zealous enforcement.
I can see why the rules exist - donāt get me wrong. But if there was one clear set of easy to understand rules that even my 9 year old son could follow - I would be less inclined to worry.
I have watched the Vosa Drivers Hours and Tachographs DVD which does explain it fairly clearly andf will always have that as reference. Maybe one day it will click into this ageing brain 
Dean
dar1976:
I know for some of you āold timersā this combination of tacho hours and WTD / RTD hours probably comes as second nature to you. But why do they have to make them so ācomplicatedā?. As a newbie it is probably one of my biggest fears. Getting it completely wrong or getting it slightly wrong and being caught out by over zealous enforcement.I can see why the rules exist - donāt get me wrong. But if there was one clear set of easy to understand rules that even my 9 year old son could follow - I would be less inclined to worry.
I have watched the Vosa Drivers Hours and Tachographs DVD which does explain it fairly clearly andf will always have that as reference. Maybe one day it will click into this ageing brain
Dean
Old timers or not, the ānewā regulations came into effect on 11th April 2007 so we all had to learn them again then, what about, "you cannot teach an old dog new tricks? the young pups shouldnāt have any problem with the new 561/2006 regulations, they are much simpler in my opinion. It is a long document but as with any legal documents it is called preamble. The rules are written in the Articles beginning at chapter 2
If you stick to the drivers hours regulations, you will not be very far out with the RTD and at the moment no-one has gone to prison for getting those wrong.
Forget these in-company RTD infringements as many of the staff issuing them do not know the rules in full.
One thing that must be stressed, it is much more important to use the correct mode than before, even if you think you are not working on POA, neither are you having a break from driving if it is on POA mode. (that only applies to a second man for the first 45 minutes)
MAC 12,
I DONāT UNDERSTAND YOUR REFERENCE TO THE ā48 HOUR RULEā, OR WHERE THE ā84 HOURSā YOU REFER TO COMES FROM! IS THE 48 HOURS 6 DAYS OF 8 HOURS OF ACTUAL DRIVING TIME OR WHAT? IF SO, HOW DOES THAT FIT WITH THE NEED FOR A 45 HOUR WEEKLY REST PERIOD?
I AM GETTING MORE CONFUSED BY THE DAY!!
DO YOU THINK MY LAST POST ON HERE IS CORRECT OR NOT?
THANKS,
PAUL.
I donāt understand your reference to the ā48 hour ruleā, or where the ā84 hoursā you refer to comes from! Is the 48 hours 6 days of 8 hours of actual driving time or what? If so, how does that fit with the need for a 45 hour weekly rest period?
I am getting more confused by the day!!
Do you think my last post on here is correct or not?
Thanks,
Paul.
Using capitals like that is considered to be āshouting,ā so Iāve fixed that capslock for you. dd. 
paulspain100:
I already understand the rules on DRIVING HOURS which are basically clear enough, but NOT the overall limits on TOTAL WORKING HOURS (INCLUDING DRIVING) which is a different thing altogether.
The driving hours and the working hours which are to a large extent controlled by the daily/weekly rest requirements are all part of the same regulations and are not a ādifferent thing altogetherā, these rules are all part of the EU regulations.
paulspain100:
it appears that in principle, and broadly speaking, I COULD do TOTAL WORKING HOURS (INCLUDING Driving of 9 hours a day) up to a MAXIMUM of 13 hours a day, five days a week, PROVIDING (and subject to the 54/36 rule, the ācompensating rest timeā rules etc);
54/36 rule
Please do not complicate the regulations by inventing rules that do not exist
See if this helps you to understand the regulations one section at a time, if thereās anything you donāt understand about a specific part of the regulations feel free to ask questions
EU Drivers Hours Regulations
Driving
Driving time includes any off-road parts of a journey where the rest of that journey is made on the public highway.
Journeys taking place entirely off road would be considered as āother workā.
So, for example, any time spent driving off road between a parking/rest area and a loading bay prior to travelling on a public road would constitute driving time, but it would be regarded as other work where an entire load is picked up and deposited on the same off-road site.
Daily Driving Time:
Maximum 9 hours accumulated driving time between two daily rest periods or between a daily rest period and a weekly rest period.
However, the daily driving time may be extended to at most 10 hours not more than twice during the week.
Weekly Driving:
A weekly driving time limit of 56 hours is specified for the EU regulations.
Fortnightly driving:
The total accumulated driving time during any two consecutive weeks shall not exceed 90 hours.
Breaks
Break means any period during which a driver may not carry out any driving or any other work and which is used exclusively for recuperation
Breaks from driving:
After a driving period of four and a half hours a driver shall immediately take an uninterrupted break of not less than 45 minutes, unless he takes a rest period.
This break may be replaced by a break of at least 15 minutes followed by a break of at least 30 minutes each distributed over the period in such a way as to comply with the provisions of the first paragraph.
After a break/breaks totalling 45 minutes the four and half hours driving time is reset.
RT(WT)R Breaks:
No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
If the working hours total between six and nine hours the working time shall be interrupted by a break of at least 30 minutes.
If the working hours total more than nine hours the working time shall be interrupted by a break of at least 45 minutes, .
Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.
The driving breaks and the RT(WT)R breaks complement each other, If a 45 minute break is taken to comply with the driving regulations it will count towards the RT(WT)R break, likewise if a break is taken in order to comply with the RT(WT)R it can count towards the mandatory driving break as long as it fits in with the driving break regulations.
Daily / Weekly Rest
āRestā means any uninterrupted period during which a driver may freely dispose of his time.
Daily rest:
A daily rest period of 11 hours should be taken in the 24 hour period commencing at the end of the last daily or weekly rest period.
The daily rest period may be reduced to 9 hours no more than three times between any two weekly rest periods. There is no compensation required for this.
Where a driver takes daily rest periods away from base, they may be taken in a vehicle, provided that there are suitable sleeping facilities for each driver and the vehicle is stationary.
Split Daily rest:
When split daily rest is taken it must total12 hours.
The 12 hour rest period can be taken in two periods.
The first period must be at least 3 hours, and the second at least 9 hours.
Weekly Rest:
Within six 24 hour periods from the end of the last weekly rest period, a driver will extend a daily rest period into either:
- A regular weekly rest period of at least 45 hours.
- Or a reduced weekly rest period of less than 45 hours but at least 24 hours.
In any two consecutive weeks, a driver shall take at least two regular weekly rest periods, or one regular weekly rest period and one reduced weekly rest period of at least 24 hours.
However, the reduction for a reduced weekly rest period shall be compensated by an equivalent period of rest taken en bloc before the end of the third week following the week in which the reduced weekly rest period was taken.
Any rest taken as compensation for a reduced weekly rest period shall be attached to another rest period of at least nine hours.
A week means the period of time between 00.00 on Monday and 24.00 on Sunday, a weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be counted in either week, but not in both.
Working Time Regulations For Mobile Workers
-
Workers may not exceed an average 48 hours working time a week over the reference period.
-
Nor may they exceed 60 hours working time in a single week (a week always starts at 00.00 Monday and ends at 24:00 Sunday).
-
Workers covered by these Regulations cannot opt-out from the average 48-hour weekly limit.
paulspain100:
MAC 12,
I donāt understand your reference to the ā48 hour ruleā, or where the ā84 hoursā you refer to comes from! Is the 48 hours 6 days of 8 hours of actual driving time or what? If so, how does that fit with the need for a 45 hour weekly rest period?
I am getting more confused by the day!!
Do you think my last post on here is correct or not?
Thanks,
Paul.
your post is correct,if you are working you can only average 48 hours,[drive for 9 hours have a break you work 10 but only 9 count] but if you then add on breaks and poa they donāt count towards the working week so itās then possible to work 84 hours.I have worked all week done maybe 65 hours but only clocked up 30 for the working week.One thing though make sure breaks and poa are paid if not you lose big time
paulspain100:
MAC 12,
I donāt understand your reference to the ā48 hour ruleā, or where the ā84 hoursā you refer to comes from! Is the 48 hours 6 days of 8 hours of actual driving time or what? If so, how does that fit with the need for a 45 hour weekly rest period?
I am getting more confused by the day!!
Do you think my last post on here is correct or not?
Thanks,
Paul.
Please turn off the āCapsā on your keyboard
In case you donāt know using Caps is regarded as shouting on the Internet and comes across as poor Netiquette. *
The 48 hour rule mentioned is the RT(WT)R rule that your average working time should not exceed 48 hours over a reference period set by your employer which is usually 17 weeks.
You cannot opt out of the 48 hour average week as your prospective employer has asked you to do but itās rarely bothered about so donāt worry about it for now, concentrate on learning the drivers hours regulations which are generally regarded as much more important that the RT(WT)R (Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations).
No offence meant to mac12 but the mention of the 84 hours per week is something you should ignore completely as itās totally irrelevant to what you need to learn and as youāve found will only serve to confuse you more.
Thatās a fair point. Iāve fixed the capslock. dd.
Ok, thanks to one and all for your help and advice. Sorry about the Capitals in my last post - didnāt notice they were switched on! i think Iāve got a handle on things now anyway, will just keep going over it until itās second nature and hope they donāt mess about with it all too much in the futureā¦
paulspain100:
Ok, thanks to one and all for your help and advice. Sorry about the Capitals in my last post - didnāt notice they were switched on! i think Iāve got a handle on things now anyway, will just keep going over it until itās second nature and hope they donāt mess about with it all too much in the futureā¦
Donāt hold your breathā¦
tachograph:
No offence meant to mac12 but the mention of the 84 hours per week is something you should ignore completely as itās totally irrelevant to what you need to learn and as youāve found will only serve to confuse you more.
And isnāt correct anyway. You can be at work, over 6 shifts in the week for 90 hours and the actual maximum hours at work you can squeeze into a week is about 99 hours.
Just thought I would point that out to correct an error which was posted a couple of times on the thread and to add to the confusion. 
OK, thanks very much to everyone who replied.
I have now nailed this down I think 
but interesting to see how many people gave such different replies to my initial enquiry 
clearly these rules/regs are still confusing a lot of people experienced or otherwise, even if they have been in force for a few years nowā¦still what can you expect from a bunch of āsuitsā in Brussells and London?
Coffeeholic:
You can be at work, over 6 shifts in the week for 90 hours and the actual maximum hours at work you can squeeze into a week is about 99 hours.
Bit of a silly example for 99 hours in 6 shifts but all the daily rests are 9 hours without doing a split daily rest!!
Weekly rest
Multi manning for 21 hours 9 hours off
Single manning for 15 hours 9 hours off
Single manning for 15 hours 9 hours off
Single manning for 15 hours 9 hours off
Multi manning for 21 hours 9 hours off
Single manning for 12 hours
weekly rest
I was referring to a driver working by himself, as that is what most do, and it is about 99 hours you can squeeze into the fixed week, I posted an example ages ago on here but I canāt be arsed digging it out or doing it again. Itās pointless anyway as it is only a theoretical maximum and no one is ever likely to do it.