Lorry - costs of upkeep / lorry vs Luton + trailer

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

Hi Guys,

Would you be so kind and shared with me knowledge, please?

1

I run a small house removals business and I’m thinking about expanding my fleet. I’ve got a Luton van which obviously involves the following costs of upkeep:

  • insurance (hire and reward; haulage)
  • road tax
  • mot

And now… when it comes to lorries:

  • insurance (probably the same type [hire and reward; haulage}, right?)
  • road tax (any ideas how much it is monthly / annualy?)
  • mot (any ideas regarding the cost?)
  • operators license (I won’t be driving abroad so it’ll be ‘national’, right? Application - £350, Issue - approx £450, right?)
  • 12 week checks (what is it? what checks need to be done? what’s the cost? where can I get more info on this?)
  • ■■? (is there anything else I omitted above?)

2

Another thing I’d like to ask for your help with is a van over 3.5 t. Recently, I’ve come accross a Iveco Luton van 6.5 t (it had tacho)

  • do you know whether it’s classified as a van or a lorry?
  • if classified as a lorry do I need to incurr the same costs (ie 12 week checks, operators license etc) ? I’m aware this question may seem a bit stupid but it looked like a regular Luton van.

3

Lastly, I’m torn between buying a lorry (7.5 t, luton, dropwell) or buying a Luton van (with side doors) and attaching a trailer.

A few points on the above:

  • Initially, I was a bit sceptical about the latter (because I’d have to uncouple the trailer every time to get access to the van) but recently I’ve seen quite a few adverts of Luton vans with wide side doors.

  • On the other hand, I’m concerned about taking a lorry because of its size (sometimes I struggle with a van in the town centre because it’s so narrow) so I’m wondering if Luton + trailer would be a better idea

  • Another thing, most Luton vans I’ve seen are 2.2l (engine size). Sometimes the van struggles going uphill when fully loaded so… if I add a trailer to it (3.5 t as well) it will be around 7 t totall weight. I’m concerned if the van with 2.2l engine size will manage. Your views, Gentleman?

Guys, thank you very much for your time and valuable input. It’s great you took interest in helping a newbie and I’m sure plenty of people can benefit from this post.

Kind regards,
Lucas

2

do not think adding a trailer will help you as any trailer added to a 3.5 ton transit type vehicle puts it into the lorry category. with all the added rules and regs including a tachograph. including a transport managers cpc holder, or you could take the exam yourself at about £1200 10 days training + exams only available 4 times a year. and a slightly larger weight van does the same even though it looks the same, look through the owner driver section lots of advice there. do not think you can bluff it out with a trailer as the authorities know the rules off by heart and can spot a truck needing a tacho a mile off. which a lot of young people down our way are finding when they hook up the burger van behind anything that can be classed as a goods vehicle inc 4x4s, and do not realise they need to pass a trailer test as well. be lucky

3

I can’t help you with everything but when you go over 3.5t, it’s a HGV. A transit and small trailer is a HGV just the same as a 44t artic. Thanks EU…

If you attached a trailer to your luton you’d need an operators licence, a competent person (a transport manager with the operators CPC), the driver would need up to date CPC plus a digital tacho card. And you’d need to pay to have a tacho fitted. Very rough cost, £3000ish? Plus however much to hire a competent person on a temp basis (yearly cost obviously).

A 6.5 Iveco would also be a HGV, so that’s a no go (but by the time all the bits have fell off you’d probably be back under the limit :grimacing: (Italian Vehicle Everything Comes Off)

Sorry I can’t help more, or be more precise. Try the operators forum maybe?

4

Essentially, if your vehicle has a gross train weight in excess of 3500kgs, then unless your business is exmept from EU driver’s hours, you have to conform; and have a tacho fitted.

Note GTW - so this is the load capacity of the prime mover and trailer (if you have towing capability). It is irrelevant how heavy your current load is, as the regulations have to assume the total potential capacity of weight.

These rules only apply for business purposes (hire/reward) - and some vehicles/business types are exempt. A Google search should help here.

You may also need an operators licenece:

You will need a goods vehicle operator’s licence if you use a goods vehicle of over 3.5 tonnes gross plated weight or (where there is no plated weight) an unladen weight of more than 1,525kg to transport goods for hire or reward or in connection with a trade or business.

5

If you go above 3.5 tonnes gross weight either with the vehicle or the vehicle and trailer, then you are going to need an operator’s licence. A condition of the application process will enable any of your neighbours a legal right to object to your business activities.

Just buy another 3.5tonne van or two, forget the idea of trailers and avoid the hassle. The syllabus for the Certificate of Professional Competence in Goods Vehicle Operation will give you some idea of the other requirements and obligations.

6

@Lucas84 … the posts above seem to sum up the pitfalls.
I would like to say though, this is how I got started off with trucks and wish you luck, I had various vans and was getting lots of work shifting stuff about, we needed something much bigger to do household removals so I bought a 7½tonner (bedford ck), then after it was bought we learnt it wasn’t quite as simple as all that, CPC, Operators Licence and somewhere to park. So in a state of panic we bought the Transport Managers handbook and both the wife and myself both studied the book then we both took the exam in hope one of us would pass, we both passed … LOL, this would have been late 70s and the exam was really simple to what they have now.

But do be very careful if you go for a 7.5tonne furniture van, they can be huge in volume but don’t carry much weight, mine only carried about 3.5 ton, I got done at just under 11t, £500 fine which was one serious shot across the bows in 1980. (and that didn’t cover the £550 it cost to hire someone else in to take half the load) that was one bad day on the road.

7

Where I work we changed from running 2 artics to running one artic and one van and trailer.

The costs of using the Van and Trailer for us were about 1/2 to 2/3 of the costs of running an artic,
But our operation is low annual mileage, and it’s a new van on an R&M contract, compared to an old paid for truck, we run across Europe so there is a saving for us on the tolls, but the driver stays in hotels, with all expenses paid. So the figures might work out different for you.

21 mpg for the Van and Trailer running at just under 6t, 10 mpg for the truck at 20t with a 4m high box van.
and we only need a driver with a B+E licence and digi card (No HGV, No DCPC) to drive it, although it’s normally driven by a driver with a C+E.

We got a new van for the job, 163bhp VW Crafter, it was also a very torquey engine compared to many of the others I looked at, and does pull the weight very well and the whole outfit drives well, difficult to believe it’s a 2L engine. But it’s a panel van and obviously a Luton will struggle more into a head wind.

We load the van through the side door using a portable loading ramp, cost about £400 but better than trying with improvised bits of kit not up to the job.

We also specified it to have a MTW of 7t, you normally have to specify the van if you want it to tow over 2t, I think they fit a different drive axle and maybe beef the suspension and also a stronger tow bar as I believe a standard tow bar is rated to 3t.

However the van and trailer are on the O’licence, and the drivers are on EU drivers hours regs, and both the Van and Trailer have the required safety inspections, the trailer we do ourselves, the van goes to the same place as our truck it costs about £80+vat a time, so I assume they book about 2 hours for the inspection, trucks would be the same about 2 hours for the Unit and 2 hours for the trailer and then of course any other work needed to keep it maintained.

VW couldn’t include safety inspections on the R&M contract although Mercedes can, I suppose because their commercial vehicle dealers are also doing HGV’s

I think the O’licence cost about £260 for the application and £500 for the licence when it’s issued and renewed every 5 year, Plus you’ll need to show the required financial standing, suitable operating centre and maintenance regime to get an O’licence.

Another downside is the payload of the van is only 1.3t max.

As for you question about a 6.5t Luton, anything vehicle with a MGW (not train weight) over 3.5t will require a driver with at least a C1 licence and a DCPC and also all the O’licence requirements.

8

muckles:
Where I work we changed from running 2 artics to running one artic and one van and trailer.

The costs of using the Van and Trailer for us were about 1/2 to 2/3 of the costs of running an artic,
But our operation is low annual mileage, and it’s a new van on an R&M contract, compared to an old paid for truck, we run across Europe so there is a saving for us on the tolls, but the driver stays in hotels, with all expenses paid. So the figures might work out different for you.

21 mpg for the Van and Trailer running at just under 6t, 10 mpg for the truck at 20t with a 4m high box van.
and we only need a driver with a B+E licence and digi card (No HGV, No DCPC) to drive it, although it’s normally driven by a driver with a C+E.

We got a new van for the job, 163bhp VW Crafter, it was also a very torquey engine compared to many of the others I looked at, and does pull the weight very well and the whole outfit drives well, difficult to believe it’s a 2L engine. But it’s a panel van and obviously a Luton will struggle more into a head wind.

We load the van through the side door using a portable loading ramp, cost about £400 but better than trying with improvised bits of kit not up to the job.

We also specified it to have a MTW of 7t, you normally have to specify the van if you want it to tow over 2t, I think they fit a different drive axle and maybe beef the suspension and also a stronger tow bar as I believe a standard tow bar is rated to 3t.

However the van and trailer are on the O’licence, and the drivers are on EU drivers hours regs, and both the Van and Trailer have the required safety inspections, the trailer we do ourselves, the van goes to the same place as our truck it costs about £80+vat a time, so I assume they book about 2 hours for the inspection, trucks would be the same about 2 hours for the Unit and 2 hours for the trailer and then of course any other work needed to keep it maintained.

VW couldn’t include safety inspections on the R&M contract although Mercedes can, I suppose because their commercial vehicle dealers are also doing HGV’s

I think the O’licence cost about £260 for the application and £500 for the licence when it’s issued and renewed every 5 year, Plus you’ll need to show the required financial standing, suitable operating centre and maintenance regime to get an O’licence.

Another downside is the payload of the van is only 1.3t max.

As for you question about a 6.5t Luton, anything vehicle with a MGW (not train weight) over 3.5t will require a driver with at least a C1 licence and a DCPC and also all the O’licence requirements.

You could just bang it through an MOT for less than that.

9

maybe try also the owner and fleet operator forum

10

muckles:
163bhp VW Crafter.

Was it meant to be named the VW Grafter, but zee Germans cocked up the British term?

11

Hi Lucas,

Forgive me if I repeat anything that is said above but I also run a removals company & I couldn’t read without speaking,

3.5 tonne & trailer does need o licence for which you will need a cpc/transport manager, £7500 cleared funds (for 1 truck £3500 for every other I think) in the bank, an operating centre, no criminal record,maintenance contract,the list goes on,
I run a 3.5 tonne Luton & a 12 tonne furniture truck,
Personally I think 7.5 tonne can’t cope with anything more than 1100cf as they are always overweight & with the new speed limit laws a 12/13 Tonne truck is far more viable & cheaper to insure,
F/N I think contrary to a post above you will need a dcpc as it will be for hire or reward & any outfit that comes under cpc also comes under dcpc

Good luck m8

12

dancferns:
Hi Lucas,

Forgive me if I repeat anything that is said above but I also run a removals company & I couldn’t read without speaking,

3.5 tonne & trailer does need o licence for which you will need a cpc/transport manager, £7500 cleared funds (for 1 truck £3500 for every other I think) in the bank, an operating centre, no criminal record,maintenance contract,the list goes on,
I run a 3.5 tonne Luton & a 12 tonne furniture truck,
Personally I think 7.5 tonne can’t cope with anything more than 1100cf as they are always overweight & with the new speed limit laws a 12/13 Tonne truck is far more viable & cheaper to insure,
F/N I think contrary to a post above you will need a dcpc as it will be for hire or reward & any outfit that comes under cpc also comes under dcpc

Good luck m8

No DCPC for a B+E driver.

13

When I did my dcdp the trainer said that if it needs an operator license then it needs a dcpc but I can’t find anything on gov website so looks like your right?
Is this just a grey area?

14

dancferns:
When I did my dcdp the trainer said that if it needs an operator license then it needs a dcpc but I can’t find anything on gov website so looks like your right?
Is this just a grey area?

It’s a licencing rule, I think - in that a B class licence is deemed ‘car’ and (obviously) C etc is HGV; and DCPC only applies to HGV’s/PSV’s.

15

gov.uk/being-a-goods-vehicl … r/overview

According to this if the trailers unladen weight is less than 1020kg then you don’t need an O Licence.

16

FTBlunder:
Being a goods vehicle operator: Overview - GOV.UK

According to this if the trailers unladen weight is less than 1020kg then you don’t need an O Licence.

There is a bit more to that.

You don’t need an operator’s licence if your trailer’s unladen weight is less than 1,020 kg and you only carry your own goods.

17

Sorry yes, should have mentioned that. Useless info for a removals company, my apologies.

18

FTBlunder:
Sorry yes, should have mentioned that. Useless info for a removals company, my apologies.

No problem :smiley:

19

Thank you very much for your invaluable contribution, Guys.

It seems I was dreaming thinking it would be relatively easy (financially speaking) to own a lorry. I’m a bit ■■■■■■ off that you need o’license and all other hassle when you drive a van with a trailer. I saw this as an excellent idea since I’d have ‘2 lutons’ with only 1 driver : /

20

Now you know why your competitors with larger vehicles charge more than you do.