This ERF was my Dads it had a Eaton box fitted
It was the first 240 Gardner powered A Series in Scotland
It was pride of place on the ERF Stand at the 1972 Kelvin Hall Motorshow
fryske:
rigsby:
i just noticed the big j had a direct top fuller 9 speed , same as the foden i drove . it suffered a catastrophic main shaft failure at about 12 months old and according to fodens parts were unobtainable . the upshot was an overdrive 9 speed from sykes at barnsley , top gear up to 68mph and then pop it in overdrive , what a flying machine ! when the 38 ton limit came in they found another direct top box , crawling about at 65 mph .The Big J was fitted with the direct top box when it became apparent that it was far too fast with the overdrive box after it had received its new rear axle (Rockwell SA180 iirc)…
That particular model with the 290 was far too fast with the standard Guy axle never mind a Rockwell, we had about 6 of them they would all go off the clock !!
Trev_H:
fryske:
rigsby:
i just noticed the big j had a direct top fuller 9 speed , same as the foden i drove . it suffered a catastrophic main shaft failure at about 12 months old and according to fodens parts were unobtainable . the upshot was an overdrive 9 speed from sykes at barnsley , top gear up to 68mph and then pop it in overdrive , what a flying machine ! when the 38 ton limit came in they found another direct top box , crawling about at 65 mph .The Big J was fitted with the direct top box when it became apparent that it was far too fast with the overdrive box after it had received its new rear axle (Rockwell SA180 iirc)…
That particular model with the 290 was far too fast with the standard Guy axle never mind a Rockwell, we had about 6 of them they would all go off the clock !!
Yes -
Imagine how silly they were when tweaked to 335… the Guy axle didn’t last long.
Here’s an intriguing thought. Many 9-speed Fullers have been converted to 13-speed ones over the years. But I wonder if anyone knows of 13-speed 'boxes that, for some reason or another, have been converted to 9-speeders. This also set me thinking about that narrow category of models for which 13-speed was available, but never (to my knowledge) with 9-speed Fullers. Here’s the list I came up with:
Dennison, FTF, MAN F90, MAN F8 (except South Africa), Iveco Turbostar / Tech (except South Africa). Some F-type Macks had Fuller 13s too, but who would de-convert one of those to 9-speed? The Iranians? Pic of one below. Robert 
Not sure who’s pic this is, so if I’ve offended I’ll take it off.
Drove them in Guy’s like this one, S/A’s , Marathon’s, the Marathon I drove for Dines, I drove up from Dover with no clutch, up through London, before the M25, all the way back to Bicester with 20 ton of beer on the back.
I’d forgotten about that set-up in the Big J. I used the same tool on low loader work for a plant hire company. In fact, I taught the regular driver how to change gear with and without the clutch. Where are you now, Bob? 
Dieseldog66:
Not sure who’s pic this is, so if I’ve offended I’ll take it off.
Drove them in Guy’s like this one, S/A’s , Marathon’s, the Marathon I drove for Dines, I drove up from Dover with no clutch, up through London, before the M25, all the way back to Bicester with 20 ton of beer on the back.
A wonderful 'box, as you say. You asked about the picture: it’s by Fryske (and I added the white inscription). You’ll find an Aladdin’s cave of his beautifully taken pictures on his photostream site. flickr.com/photos/fryske/
Robert
When I got this first “A” Series in August '73(because I couldn’t lay my hands on a Borderer 
) It came with 220■■■■■■■ and the Fuller 6509 box,which was a low crawler and 4 over 4 range change.We ran a further 3 “A” Series,another one identical to the first,a 180LXB with the same Fuller box and an 8LXB with the bigger 9509 Fuller box.All the 205/220 ■■■■■■■ Atki Borderers,and a lone Seddon 32/4 we ran (apart from ONL480M ex Waugh Road Services which had the bigger 9509 box) used the 610 box which was 5 over 5.I wonder if the smaller 9 speed box used by ERF was cheaper than the 610 used in the Atkis? Or did ERF believe that the 9 speed was adequate for the job.Cheers Bewick.
Were there different ratios in the 9 and 10 speed? i.e.same lowest and highest ratios?
Here’s a 10 speed in an AEC Mandator:
Looking at these last two posts from Bewick and from Fryske, I wonder why a 9-speed 'box was made at all, when the 10-speed 'box did much the same job. Was it to do with weight? I believe the F9 was lighter. Or did drivers show a preference for the simpler 4-over-4 set-up? I doubt the latter, as drivers weren’t asked for their preferences much in those days! I think Scammell Crusaders with RR220s used 10-speed boxes. Below are few variations on the pattern. Robert
robert1952:
Looking at these last two posts from Bewick and from Fryske, I wonder why a 9-speed 'box was made at all, when the 10-speed 'box did much the same job. Was it to do with weight? I believe the F9 was lighter. Or did drivers show a preference for the simpler 4-over-4 set-up? I doubt the latter, as drivers weren’t asked for their preferences much in those days! I think Scammell Crusaders with RR220s used 10-speed boxes. Below are few variations on the pattern. Robert210
Robert, the crusaders 220 did have the 10 speed fuller but the 280 rolls had the fuller 9 speed and I think it was down to capability of how much torque the gear boxes could cope with, well I think that is what they told me
cheers Johnnie
Evening all,
well a long day, and sadly not a lot achieved…far too wet, and the wheat does not look as good as last years, but the ■■■■ holds up, and my hay meadows are superb…but un drivable so wet is the sub soil! Met two charming Polish lads today, collecting grain from my store, both driving UK reg DAFs. …Polite, competent, and obliging, did everything that they should have done, a credit to their NW based employer…and I bet they do not get the going rate for the job…am I becoming cynical?
Robert, that Seddon European must have been 72/73, I think that Pat registered her on an L plate…and I know that I gave up the unequal struggle and joined Hartshornes, (Volvo Dealers), within weeks of driving that abomination. Then Chris set up WestMid around 74, just as I cleared off to France…
Orrible lorry that European…O rrible with a capital O!!!
The reason that the 10 speed Road Ranger was dropped was the torque rating, and also the rapid rise in bhp from the engine manufacturers…and of course the simplicity of the 9 serie boxes. …But like many I personally loved the 10 speeders.
Mack often used the 9 serie, as it suited their own Maxi Dyne engine torque output, and was a common feature when selling into major US fleets, where standardisation of components, and driver acceptability was paramount. Mack would always favour simplicity over complicated transmissions for on highway work…yet conceived the machinations of their multi ratio creations for more arduous operations!..But once learned , their intracacies could truly be worn as a badge of honour amongst ones peers!..The satisfaction of watching anothers eyes as he looked at the twin sticks with awe, gave any Mack driver the real edge…Personally I loved it…but no Mack gearbox ever came close to Mr Fodens creation in lightning fast ratio changes…and no, oh no, Mr Eaton was never so fast either!!!
Robert, you touch upon the creations of my great friend Antoine Loheac, engineer, visionary, and philontrophic employer. Somewhere, in the past I wrote a piece about Antoine, and his creations, and his company …what a man, a great and enjoyable friend, God rest his soul. I shall not bore you with a re write, but it is somewhere on this blog, if you wish to read about one of the last great pioneers in our industry.
Antoines quest was payload, and every kilo saved was a Franc earned, and that is what led him to M Fuller. 5,7, 9 speed, behind DAF, Scania, and Renault, (Berliet), power. All at 38 tonnes, and all utterly dependable, unlike ZFs which he also utilised. It could have been behind a 760 AEC which he wished to try, (based upon the reputation that AEC powered Willeme`s were getting in northern France…but Leyland sent him one of their own…he sent it back!!! They really did not appreciate the man!!
Im away to my nightly Bollinger, for the rain still falls, and I shall remember many a post dinner conversation with Antoine regarding the merits, or not, of so many types of lorry…truly happy memories…
Cheerio for now.
sammyopisite:
robert1952:
Looking at these last two posts from Bewick and from Fryske, I wonder why a 9-speed 'box was made at all, when the 10-speed 'box did much the same job. Was it to do with weight? I believe the F9 was lighter. Or did drivers show a preference for the simpler 4-over-4 set-up? I doubt the latter, as drivers weren’t asked for their preferences much in those days! I think Scammell Crusaders with RR220s used 10-speed boxes. Below are few variations on the pattern. Robert210
Robert, the crusaders 220 did have the 10 speed fuller but the 280 rolls had the fuller 9 speed and I think it was down to capability of how much torque the gear boxes could cope with, well I think that is what they told me
cheers Johnnie
10 speed fuller fastest gear change I have ever know but over 32ton not up to the job 220 ■■■■■■■ 610 box 10 out 10
A lot of the big fleets in the USA, like Swift for example with about 15,000 units used to spec 9spd convertibles, a bit of tinkering and a few hundred bucks and a 13spd was born.
They used the 9spd for simplicity, they have something like a 200% driver turnover, so a lot of newly qualified drivers hit the road for them, I guess it’s four less gears to grind 
It also blows out of the water the incorrect use of the word overdrive, in fact the split gear in any of the top four is a lower ratio than the main gear, so top gear in both a 9 & a 13 has a 0.73 ratio and the split (12th) is 0.86, 11th is direct and the split is an underdrive.
newmercman:
A lot of the big fleets in the USA, like Swift for example with about 15,000 units used to spec 9spd convertibles, a bit of tinkering and a few hundred bucks and a 13spd was born.They used the 9spd for simplicity, they have something like a 200% driver turnover, so a lot of newly qualified drivers hit the road for them, I guess it’s four less gears to grind
It also blows out of the water the incorrect use of the word overdrive, in fact the split gear in any of the top four is a lower ratio than the main gear, so top gear in both a 9 & a 13 has a 0.73 ratio and the split (12th) is 0.86, 11th is direct and the split is an underdrive.
Good point, Newmercman: I think some were overdrive and some were underdrive, weren’t they? Robert
newmercman:
A lot of the big fleets in the USA, like Swift for example with about 15,000 units used to spec 9spd convertibles, a bit of tinkering and a few hundred bucks and a 13spd was born.They used the 9spd for simplicity, they have something like a 200% driver turnover, so a lot of newly qualified drivers hit the road for them, I guess it’s four less gears to grind
It also blows out of the water the incorrect use of the word overdrive, in fact the split gear in any of the top four is a lower ratio than the main gear, so top gear in both a 9 & a 13 has a 0.73 ratio and the split (12th) is 0.86, 11th is direct and the split is an underdrive.
On an RTO, the “O” stands for “overdrive”; on an RTX, the “X” means “reduction” or “underdrive”. Why they didn’t call the latter an RTU or an RTR is beyond me. I think the first numbers signify the torque capacity of the gearbox: a 610 will take engines up to 600lbft, a 9509 is needed behind engines with up to 950lbft. Looking at the ratios in an RTO9513, top gear is 0.87, the next one down is direct, IE 1.00:1, so the splitter is indeed an overdrive gear:
12.50
8.35
6.12
4.56
3.38
2.47
2.14
1.81
1.57
1.35
1.17
1.00
0.87
The range-change is a reduction gear, most probably 3.38:1 in low range and direct in high range. The ratio steps in the main gearbox are 0.73, 0.75 and 0.74. The range-change gives a ratio step between 4L and 1H (“fifth”) of 0.73. Nice. The ratio step between first and second in the main ‘box is much bigger- 0.67, to give that low 12.5:1 crawler gear.
Regarding the “missing” gear on a 9509, 1H on this gearbox would be 3.70:1. This would give a ratio step of 0.81 from 3L and 0.91 to 4L, so this gear is a sort-of split between those two gears. The range-change section is almost certainly direct in high range, so the gears in this section of the ‘box see none of the extra torque developed by first gear in the main ‘box, and the loon is wrong yet again. The reason for Fuller’s ignoring that gear is that it makes the sequence illogical- try explaining to a new driver that it’s an eight-speed ‘box with a crawler, but 1H is an extra split gear between 3L and 4L, with the proviso that the step between 3L and the split gear is double that between the split gear and 4L. Best to say that the gear does not exist (on the 9513, 1H overdrive split gives 3.20:1, so the ratio step between that gear and 4L is only 0.95, so the extra gear is not worth bothering with anyway).
This gives the answer to Bewick’s question above: the 6509 had the low first gear (crawler), which made 1H a bit of an orphan, so it was, in practice, a 9-speed. It was not necessarily cheaper than a 610.
Thanks Anorak - I found your above post immensely helpful! Robert
Question,did ERF ever fit the Fuller 610 box into the “A” Series chassis or did they just use the 6509 box ? Cheers Bewick.
