Carryfast:
robert1952:
Lawrence Dunbar:
0This Foden Owned by Brian Patterson from Aberagie Perth, Had the Fuller 9 Speed box powered by a 320 ■■■■■■■ Engine, Regards Larry.What a majestic Foden! Was that a tag or double-drive? Robert
It’s clearly a double drive if you expand the pic.
Yep! Cheers. Robert 
Retired Old ■■■■:
andrew.s:
my friends old bedford TL 32 ton unit had a 9 speed fuller fitted0I seem to have missed this model. Can someone fill me (and others, maybe) in on the engine fitted to this “premium” beast?
who said it was “premium”? it was certainly rare,it was fitted with a 210bhp bedford turbocharged 500 engine.fuller 6609 gearbox and a rockwell R170 axle.
Thanks for that, Andrew. I wonder how it would have matched up to the Gardner 180s that most of us were using at the same weight. And did the cab tend to fall apart with the vibration, much as the earlier TK/ Leylands used to?
Retired Old ■■■■:
Thanks for that, Andrew. I wonder how it would have matched up to the Gardner 180s that most of us were using at the same weight. And did the cab tend to fall apart with the vibration, much as the earlier TK/ Leylands used to?
not too sure as my friend didnt operate it commercially ,but in preservation.i suppose it would have struggled a bit with a 20 ton payload with only 210bhp.this was a 1985 example so made in the last year or so of bedford production
Retired Old ■■■■:
Thanks for that, Andrew. I wonder how it would have matched up to the Gardner 180s that most of us were using at the same weight. And did the cab tend to fall apart with the vibration, much as the earlier TK/ Leylands used to?
I think the answers in the question there must be 1000s of 6LXBs still in operation but not many Blue Series Bedford engines still around going strong
robert1952:
Certain Ford Cargos ended up with Fuller 9s. Page 97 of ‘British Lorries Since 1945’ shows six RHD Ford Cargo tractor units with ■■■■■■■ L10-250 engines and Fuller RT11609 9-sp ‘boxes in the service of West Transport of Ilkeston. Anyone got a picture of those that’s postable on the thread? Robert
On the L10-250 equipped Cargos (units or otherwise), the Eaton/Fuller RT11609a came as standard. The Eaton Twin Split was an option. On the LTA-10 290 fitted versions, the Eaton Twin Split came as standard and the RT11609a was the optional gearbox. I have a Cargo unit with the 290 ■■■■■■■ and the optional Roadranger hybrid (or RT11609a). I know of no other 3828 units with it fitted as yet, still surviving.
Carryfast, a properly spaced direct top gear transmission should have a bit more poke once you start downshifting as once out of top cog you’re in underdrive and therefore benefitting from torque multiplication. At least I hope that’s how it works, I’ve just spent a bloody fortune on a new motor with direct top and 2.43 rear axles 
newmercman:
Carryfast, a properly spaced direct top gear transmission should have a bit more poke once you start downshifting as once out of top cog you’re in underdrive and therefore benefitting from torque multiplication. At least I hope that’s how it works, I’ve just spent a bloody fortune on a new motor with direct top and 2.43 rear axles
It makes no difference to the performance of the vehicle. If you had specified an overdrive 'box- let’s just say it was a Fuller, with a 0.87:1 top gear!- you would have simply offset this by fitting an axle with a ratio 2.43/0.87=2.79, or thereabouts. The top speed would be the same. If the ratio spread in the gearbox is the same, then the gradeability would be the same and if there are the same number of gears, you would do the same number of gearchanges.
The overdrive-versus-direct top choice is more subtle than the loon. The manufacturer wants the lorry to burn as much fuel as possible(!) in direct gear, because it is more efficient. Two sets of gears (one set to turn the lay gear, the other to drive the output shaft) will waste maybe 4% of the power:
Against that, the engine will be more efficient at higher loads, so an overdrive top gear will help on level-ish roads. When the going gets a bit tougher, and a lower gear is required, those lorries will do the hard work in direct gear. I guess that your new vehicle will spend most of its day in top gear, and will get over most of the hills you encounter in that gear, or will be dragged so far down the ‘box that the direct-versus-overdrive top argument is rendered redundant. Am I right? I also guess that, with that axle ratio, you will be going fast!
Short diff ratios were from the olden days, engines with a couple of hundred hp and minimal torque.
With 2000 to 2500ft lbs torque on today’s big engines and a dead flat torque curve, one can run tall diff ratios in the 3:1 region.
Newmercman my numbers have you at around 1250rpm for 100kph, hope she’s got plenty of oomph.
sdg1970:
robert1952:
Certain Ford Cargos ended up with Fuller 9s. Page 97 of ‘British Lorries Since 1945’ shows six RHD Ford Cargo tractor units with ■■■■■■■ L10-250 engines and Fuller RT11609 9-sp ‘boxes in the service of West Transport of Ilkeston. Anyone got a picture of those that’s postable on the thread? RobertOn the L10-250 equipped Cargos (units or otherwise), the Eaton/Fuller RT11609a came as standard. The Eaton Twin Split was an option. On the LTA-10 290 fitted versions, the Eaton Twin Split came as standard and the RT11609a was the optional gearbox. I have a Cargo unit with the 290 ■■■■■■■ and the optional Roadranger hybrid (or RT11609a). I know of no other 3828 units with it fitted as yet, still surviving.
So, as these two (pictured below) L10 Cargos are on the preservation circuit, someone will know what transmission they have, hopefully. Robert
[zb] not going to be running fast, 62mph, it’s the new Volvo XE driveline, gear em fast, drive em slow, all about the mpgs…
robert1952:
sdg1970:
robert1952:
Certain Ford Cargos ended up with Fuller 9s. Page 97 of ‘British Lorries Since 1945’ shows six RHD Ford Cargo tractor units with ■■■■■■■ L10-250 engines and Fuller RT11609 9-sp ‘boxes in the service of West Transport of Ilkeston. Anyone got a picture of those that’s postable on the thread? RobertOn the L10-250 equipped Cargos (units or otherwise), the Eaton/Fuller RT11609a came as standard. The Eaton Twin Split was an option. On the LTA-10 290 fitted versions, the Eaton Twin Split came as standard and the RT11609a was the optional gearbox. I have a Cargo unit with the 290 ■■■■■■■ and the optional Roadranger hybrid (or RT11609a). I know of no other 3828 units with it fitted as yet, still surviving.
So, as these two (pictured below) L10 Cargos are on the preservation circuit, someone will know what transmission they have, hopefully. Robert
10
The bottom picture is Oscar Clarke’s unit (ex-Royal Navy truck) and it has an Eaton Twin Splitter fited. Very nice unit, it was at Retro Show last year as I recall.
I don’t know the top picture - is that a Dutch Cargo tractor■■? If it is a 3824 (as your pic title suggests) then chances are it will have a Roadranger fitted!?!
[zb]
anorak:newmercman:
Carryfast, a properly spaced direct top gear transmission should have a bit more poke once you start downshifting as once out of top cog you’re in underdrive and therefore benefitting from torque multiplication. At least I hope that’s how it works, I’ve just spent a bloody fortune on a new motor with direct top and 2.43 rear axlesIt makes no difference to the performance of the vehicle. If you had specified an overdrive 'box- let’s just say it was a Fuller, with a 0.87:1 top gear!- you would have simply offset this by fitting an axle with a ratio 2.43/0.87=2.79, or thereabouts. The top speed would be the same. If the ratio spread in the gearbox is the same, then the gradeability would be the same and if there are the same number of gears, you would do the same number of gearchanges.
The overdrive-versus-direct top choice is more subtle than the loon. The manufacturer wants the lorry to burn as much fuel as possible(!) in direct gear, because it is more efficient. Two sets of gears (one set to turn the lay gear, the other to drive the output shaft) will waste maybe 4% of the power:
0Against that, the engine will be more efficient at higher loads, so an overdrive top gear will help on level-ish roads. When the going gets a bit tougher, and a lower gear is required, those lorries will do the hard work in direct gear. I guess that your new vehicle will spend most of its day in top gear, and will get over most of the hills you encounter in that gear, or will be dragged so far down the ‘box that the direct-versus-overdrive top argument is rendered redundant. Am I right? I also guess that, with that axle ratio, you will be going fast!
According to the final paragraph you seem to have got it all the wrong way round because you’ve forgotten all about the fact that the direct top box is lumbered with a higher final drive ratio than the overdrive box can be fitted with before you start.Therefore direct top is similar to the overdrive top with the overdrive box assuming that you want efficient fast running on the flat.‘But’ all the other gears in that direct top box are ‘also’ lumbered with that higher final drive ratio to pull in all the lower gears than the overdrive box is subject to.
If I’ve read it right you seem to be saying that if I spec an overdrive top box with a lower final drive as opposed to a direct drive top with a higher final drive the direct drive top box with the higher final drive will produce the same/similar torque multiplication at the wheels in all the other gears all other gear ratios in the box being equal/similar. 
When the fact is at best that idea would just mean more downshifts and use of more lower gears to get equal/similar torque multiplication as that which having a lower final drive provides in the hills and for acceleration.As for power losses gearing is all about making torque at the wheels not saving power at the flywheel and the more torque at the wheels you can make with gearing the less fuel you’ll need to burn under load not more.IE any arguable/marginal power losses are outweighed by the torque gains of a lower final drive ratio in the hills.While the overdrive top ratio provides the same/similar high gearing for high speed flat running which is mostly about keeping engine speeds down not worrying about any arguable and,at worst marginal,power losses concerning the overdrive box and low final drive combination.
newmercman:
Carryfast, a properly spaced direct top gear transmission should have a bit more poke once you start downshifting as once out of top cog you’re in underdrive and therefore benefitting from torque multiplication. At least I hope that’s how it works, I’ve just spent a bloody fortune on a new motor with direct top and 2.43 rear axles
The bit you’re forgetting is that ‘underdrive’ doesn’t get much more ‘under’ in ‘all’ the gears than by speccing a lower final drive.It’s then just a case of making sure that ‘overdrive top’ is high enough to provide the same/similar high gear in top where you need it.Not reducing the torque multiplication of all the other lower gears everywhere else which is what you’ve done by speccing a lower top gear and higher final drive. 
robert1952:
Lawrence Dunbar:
0This Foden Owned by Brian Patterson from Aberagie Perth, Had the Fuller 9 Speed box powered by a 320 ■■■■■■■ Engine, Regards Larry.What a majestic Foden! Was that a tag or double-drive? Robert
D/D, He designed the wagon himself its half Foden & half Sedaki, Regards Larry.
gazsa401:
Retired Old ■■■■:
Thanks for that, Andrew. I wonder how it would have matched up to the Gardner 180s that most of us were using at the same weight. And did the cab tend to fall apart with the vibration, much as the earlier TK/ Leylands used to?I think the answers in the question there must be 1000s of 6LXBs still in operation but not many Blue Series Bedford engines still around going strong
erm are you sure about that? what about all the tm’s that the british army have? must be many hundreds. loads of ex army ones for sale aswell.
newmercman:
[zb] not going to be running fast, 62mph, it’s the new Volvo XE driveline, gear em fast, drive em slow, all about the mpgs…
The “direct or overdrive top” argument has been rumbling along at precisely 62mph for years, with no clear outcome, as far as I can see- the difference is marginal either way. About 5 years ago IIRC, Scania started offering overdrive top 'boxes in its tractors, after decades of direct-top allegiance. To bring the teeth-grinding back to Fuller, they were all RTOs until the direct RT came on the scene in the 1990s(?).
What engine speed gives you 62mph? What engine is in the lorry?
1250rpm at 100km/h and it’s a D13 with 455hp.
[zb]
anorak:newmercman:
[zb] not going to be running fast, 62mph, it’s the new Volvo XE driveline, gear em fast, drive em slow, all about the mpgs…The “direct or overdrive top” argument has been rumbling along at precisely 62mph for years, with no clear outcome, as far as I can see- the difference is marginal either way. About 5 years ago IIRC, Scania started offering overdrive top 'boxes in its tractors, after decades of direct-top allegiance. To bring the teeth-grinding back to Fuller, they were all RTOs until the direct RT came on the scene in the 1990s(?).
This seems to suggest that the RT,as opposed to the RTO,choice was available from day 1.
youtube.com/watch?v=5XxuM75auNY
2.30-2.46
andrew.s:
gazsa401:
Retired Old ■■■■:
Thanks for that, Andrew. I wonder how it would have matched up to the Gardner 180s that most of us were using at the same weight. And did the cab tend to fall apart with the vibration, much as the earlier TK/ Leylands used to?I think the answers in the question there must be 1000s of 6LXBs still in operation but not many Blue Series Bedford engines still around going strong
erm are you sure about that? what about all the tm’s that the british army have? must be many hundreds. loads of ex army ones for sale aswell.
In my limited experience, the Army’s Bedfords will have had a really easy life from day one. That’s if they even came out of the storage compounds at all!
