Looking to buy a 6 to 7.5 t truck - need advice

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OWNER AND FLEET OPERATORS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

Hi,

No, I’m not a commercial driver. I’m a vehicle engineer looking to build a race truck.
A 3.5t van doesn’t have the payload, so I’m looking at 6 to 7.5t vans and trucks to turn into a camper race truck. But I’m out of my zone of experience ( which was up to 3.5t in Renault Masters and Transits, and loads of lighter T5’s etc,.).

Absolute economy is less important, but reliability and ease of diagnosis/repair is preferred, and it has to be reasonably powerful and good to drive ( not like an old 6.0 litre Dover engined ford cargo or a Talbot Express camper!) it will make occasional longer runs to Europe.

What are people’s thoughts please?
Things on the table in my price range and I like the look of.

2002 200,000km DAF 45
2011 350,000mile Iveco 70 Luton van
2009 100,000 mile Renault Mascott 6.5 t. LWB van

I like the idea of a “van” rather than a “truck” ( bit smaller and lower profile, but then again, the cab tilt seems to make maintenance much cheaper and easier, and this isn’t a daily driver for me, so maybe big is better, Also, logic dictates that it’s a good idea to get what’s popular. I like the idea of a 16 or 18ft ex BT DAF , as it already has a side door and cooker - not vital - it’s just less stuff, time and cost to have to install myself rather than doing what I enjoy…)

You guys have run these things, on balance, what’s good and what’s bad?
What have I overlooked? What do I avoid?

TIA, Mike

2

Anyone?

I’m homing in on a 2002 DAF LF45 - is this any good?

3

That daf is old! Most euro 5 stuff is peanuts to buy & not as old, surely you can get a bit newer, the dafs are v popular & cheap but so are most, can get a midlam low miles for £4. 5k, but even stuff like man or a merc isn’t much when it’s not euro 6.

I’ve run the iveco in 6 5 I like it, the 3 0 is a great engine, the 2.8 not so grunty but is tough, I’ve run a mascott 6 5 too, not as powerful but same chassis as the iveco, old ones do get rot tho.

4

What do you see as your load weights? That’s including the vehicle to be raced, the tools, ramps, tea, coffee etc. That could well decide what vehicle you head for.
You might want to factor in that once we go over 3.5t it’s dealing with O licence and how you can still be exempt, it’s a thin line of your racing for prizes, and then if it tips over 7.5hrs we get back into drivers hours etc.

5

i run a 12 ton mercedes atego to transport my old Bedford tipper, even as a recovery slide bed with spec on i always Mot it have it inspected and brake tested by a local garage a couple of times a year, and always run with a tacho in and recording, the Tax is £165 Ins around £350, max 5000 miles per year, including European, ANY licenced driver, a lot of companies want listed drivers or £50 to add one during the year, The merc has done nearly 600,000 Kms runs like a dream, double bunk sleeper, with all the toys, i get about 13 MPG, In europe when going over for a show everywhere Except Belgium up to 12 ton was Toll free, Belgium now taxes everything over 3.5 ton on most major roads annoying as one of the shows we like the best is in the Netherlands, If you are going to do it, do it in comfort no worries about an unexpected overnight stops, and most truckstops are free in euroland with good food, showers etc (not motorway services although they tend to be 90% better than ours).

6

It’s because of the payloads that I’m looking at the 7.5t - it will give me ample payload for everything I need.

I spanner for some racers, and just want a bit more space and comfort (getting old, and fed up with a tent on tarmac!)

I most definitely am not doing anything for hire or reward - this thing is going to be a camper with a motorbike garage in the back!

Yeah, looked at two ex-openreach cable pulling equipped 2002 DAF’s today, and they weren’t in great shape.
Yes, Low km, but lots of wear and tear. Yes, they had PTO compressors and lots of extra stuff, but 90 percent of it is junk to me.

i did look at the mascott - surprised at the internal space vs the Daf.

Will check out a few more DAF’s I think.

7

Carrying a bike spark plug in the back? :frowning:
Check on O-Licence before going any further.

8

OK, someone help me out here…

I understand the reasons for the rules (Basically to sort out the free-for-all that has been happening in europe with respect to small truck operators), but everything I read tells me that I don’t need an O-licence, as long as:-
I’m carrying my stuff, in my vehicle, not for hire or reward, and I dont drive for a living (My living isn’t dependant on or run from the vehicle)

By the logic placed here “If you are carrying a spark plug, you need an O-Licence”, then anyone driving anything above 2.5t needs an O-licence.

Are there any clearer guidelines?

TIA,

Mike.

9

assets.publishing.service.gov.u … _Guide.pdf

" You will need a goods vehicle operator’s
licence if you use a goods vehicle of over
3.5 tonnes gross plated weight or (where
there is no plated weight) an unladen weight
of more than 1,525kg to transport goods for
hire or reward or in connection with a trade
or business."

There is a list of exemptions on page 5 of that link. Do you qualify?
I don`t know, but better to ask that question now rather than later.

10

Captainbeaky:
OK, someone help me out here…
I understand the reasons for the rules (Basically to sort out the free-for-all that has been happening in europe with respect to small truck operators), but everything I read tells me that I don’t need an O-licence, as long as:-
I’m carrying my stuff, in my vehicle, not for hire or reward, and I dont drive for a living (My living isn’t dependant on or run from the vehicle)

By the logic placed here “If you are carrying a spark plug, you need an O-Licence”, then anyone driving anything above 2.5t needs an O-licence.
.

So, 2.5t then we are talking about driving in the EU and not the UK. if it is NOT business then, nothing changes. in your example of going to races, it will depend on prizes whether its business or pleasure. On your info, I’d agree not required in the EU.
Your challenge will only be if your exceed it 7.5t or start to win significant prizes.

11

Thanks for that.

The thing that always pops up is the “for hire or reward, or in connection with trade or business”, which it is not.
(At most, I’d be moving my personal stuff around).

Proving who owns something is a bit tricky.
(Easy with the bikes - they are all registered) but how do you prove it with things like used toolboxes, and spare parts, or the laptop?

I understand that I’m not normal - which nut (other than me) wants to buy a 7.5t truck, build it as a weird camper and roam the land? It doesn’t fit into the “Norm” of these vehicles on the road.

The market saw this a while back, as more people caught the “self-build camper” bug, built all manner of weird minimalist camper contrivances, and camper conversion rules had to change.

I also understand now why cross-eu transport of goods has got way more expensive recently!
The red tape is quite costly, especially for the kind of companies that don’t specialise in transport, and do “once or twice a year” trips.

The catch is, that I can’t even play it safe - an O-Licence can’t be obtained for the kind of use that I want.
I dont have a depot - this thing will be stored in a camper-storage yard.
I dont have a “Transport Manager” - it’s just me!
So I have to tread the fine line…

The catch comes if enforcement and exemptions cross over - on paper, you are exempt, but they do you for carrying a spark plug or a tool set. Or, as happened in the UK a while back - the carrier bag of the wrappers from lunch that was in the cab is called “waste material” and you are done for hauling waste without a licence!

12

Captainbeaky:
OK, someone help me out here…

I understand the reasons for the rules (Basically to sort out the free-for-all that has been happening in europe with respect to small truck operators), but everything I read tells me that I don’t need an O-licence, as long as:-
I’m carrying my stuff, in my vehicle, not for hire or reward, and I dont drive for a living (My living isn’t dependant on or run from the vehicle)

By the logic placed here “If you are carrying a spark plug, you need an O-Licence”, then anyone driving anything above 2.5t needs an O-licence.

Are there any clearer guidelines?

TIA,

Mike.

Franglais and Acorn both have very valid points IMHO.

For your scenario, my 2p worth is that it doesn’t matter that the ‘stuff’ you’re carrying is your own… It may be that the real answer depends on whether the ‘stuff’ being carried in connection with a trade or business.

If so, you’ll need an own account ( = restricted) ‘O’ licence, which is relatively easy to obtain.

The fact that you’ll sometimes venture into Europe won’t hamper you because (broadly speaking) the European countries have the same idea of a restricted ‘O’ licence (for the vehicle) for when the goods you’re carrying are your own. The paperwork/proof needed can sometimes vary from country to country, so some homework would be needed.

If the (your own) goods are the same (eg exhibition / trade fair) when you leave/enter the UK, then the ‘O’ licence requirements remain the same for the vehicle, but the paperwork for the load may differ from standard because you’re not making a delivery and leaving the ‘stuff’ behind when you leave.

I don’t do French, but I think it’s Conte Propre (or similar) means Own Account.

I’m on much safer ground now because of my European experience… :smiley:

In Italy, Conto Proprio means Own Account.

In the German speaking countries, Werksverkehr (Lit: Works Traffic) means Own Account.

This is all to differentiate from a normal carrier who carries and delivers ‘stuff’ that generally doesn’t belong to them.
That type of transport operation needs a 'Hire and Reward ‘O’ licence.

13

Captainbeaky:
I’m a vehicle engineer

Captainbeaky:
I spanner for some racers

If your “spannering” is free of all charge, if any parts you carry are given as gifts to the racers, then maybe you are exempt.
If you charge for your time, or for that spark plug you`ve just fitted, it seems to be your trade.

14

All good points - thank you.

If I spanner for a race, I do it cos it’s a laugh (and I usually manage to park in the paddock if I’m lucky) definitely not for payment. Quite a few people do this - go along with a racer and help out - not for payment, but to be able to be in the thick of the racing. It’s a nice environment and community - you often end up helping a few people - sometimes its fetch and carry - sometimes it’s quite in-depth repair - you never know.

OK, I can pay a hill of cash and get a restricted O-Licence. The catch is, that I’m not a truck business operator - the truck isn’t for hire or reward - its just that my chosen vehicle to use on holiday is a weird modified 7.5t truck! I’m not driving it for anything other than my hols. It feels like a lot of overhead for a hobby.

Is there any indication of how strictly they will be applying these rules?
(If carrying my normal vehicle repair toolkit is deemed as carrying something used for business, then it’s just not going to be worth the hassle!)

15

Seen these?
climbingvan.co.uk/van-life/recl … rvan-dvla/
gov.uk/government/publicati … or-caravan
If you cant do that, then your vehicle will remain a truck wont it?
It is what is on the V5 that counts.

Also from
gov.uk/being-a-goods-vehicl … exemptions
“These types of vehicles are never exempt:
mobile exhibition vehicles
catering vehicles
mobile shops
mobile medical screening vehicles
vehicles with fixed equipment carrying goods not strictly for use in connection with that equipment, or towing a trailer that’s carrying goods”

Is a mobile workshop similar “type” to a screening vehicle? Special equipment fitted although no carrying of goods involved.

Roadside tug? If the V5 says goods vehicle, the onus is on you to prove you are exempt from O-Licence rules.

Do some more research before you buy anything. Try self.service@vosa.gov.uk or 0300 123 9000.
Maybe all will be fine, I hope it is, but I suggest don`t just take a punt.