switchlogic:
Hurray, finally he got wound up, good times.
If only some of those old Safeway drivers who were stuck could join in the argument and read btd’s comments. 
If you think I got wound up. 
Carryfast:
I could’nt care less wether I argue with people or not.But the zb about me never having driven zb all anywhere seems to be a wind up to me considering that I’ve never cast any doubts about anyone else’s experience.You haven’t driven in Europe
Did’nt see any rules on here that say that no one is allowed to disagree with others and there’s no reason why such disagreements should cause that type of accusation.
Anyway,fact,15 years of uk night trunking using 4x2 artics and 6x2 wagon and drags and never got stuck once just like you did’nt on that run.
I did’nt ever say that I know ‘better’ than anyone else but I do disagree that’s all.
But a bad British winter can be as bad as anything in Europe.
see above
Fact I did a run in the winter of 86/87 from Heathrow to Harrietsham in Kent and when I was due to leave at around midnight both myself and the guvnor agreed no way of taking the artic because not enough weight (lot more than 5 tonnes) and even if it was heavier it would’nt have stood a chance.
Transhipped all of the load onto a four wheeler rigid.
So a lot more would be what? 8 or 9 tonne
The snow on the M25,M26,and M20 was deep enough to cover the barriers.
I was,with a few exceptions,the only truck on the road but made it there and back.
You must be better than everyone else, or just braver.
But on the way back I saw a line of Safeway artics stuck on the opposite carriageway.
Possibly, or possibly empty
The news at the time said they were stuck there for days.
But in addition to that there were many other times on night trunking when the conditions were much colder and much worse than running days in Europe because of the simple fact that night time winter temperatures and conditions in the UK can be a lot zb colder and a lot worse than daytime ones on the continent.
Pure make belief, on what grounds do you make that up from
Ok you ran empty across europe and found it a ‘bit slidy’.I’ve run with plenty of weight on an artic and found it a lot more than a ‘bit slidy’ yes still got there and back but experience of driving 6x4’s,also in bad conditions,tells me that a 6x4 artic outfit would be a lot better and a lot easier in those conditions.
In your experience of Europe. I take it you have driven through Ice Rain or Ice Storms, and i don’t mean Sleet…
But you now are telling us now how good you were in a rigid 4x2 in a lift axle thread, if you have a 6x2 with a lift axle, it suddenly becomes a well loaded 4x2
If you and a lot of others don’t like it then tough.Which is probably what btd’s guvnor would tell him if he went in telling him that he’d rather have a 4x2 or 6x2 not the 6x4 he’s got.
It seems to me that it is you who go into the gaffer telling him how bad his choice of motors is or was. Could that be the reason that you are still ■■■■■■■ over the thought of a primitive diesel engine and a prehistoric transmission?
Which would have been just what my old guvnor would have said,if he’d had the option of using a 6x4 yank unit,when he rightly said that he did’nt want to increase the possibilities of having a truck and it’s load stuck on the side of the road.
Which is why he transhipped the load onto a rigid.
Which if this ■■■■■■■■ is to be believed “was a lot more than 5 tonne” would have had the DFT and VOSA on your back
Don’t copy and paste all this again, we heard what you said, and I have just separated it a little for clarity.
Wheel Nut:
Carryfast:
You haven’t driven in Europesee above
So a lot more would be what? 8 or 9 tonne
You must be better than everyone else, or just braver.
Possibly, or possibly empty
Pure make belief, on what grounds do you make that up from
In your experience of Europe. I take it you have driven through Ice Rain or Ice Storms, and i don’t mean Sleet…
But you now are telling us now how good you were in a rigid 4x2 in a lift axle thread, if you have a 6x2 with a lift axle, it suddenly becomes a well loaded 4x2
It seems to me that it is you who go into the gaffer telling him how bad his choice of motors is or was. Could that be the reason that you are still [zb] over the thought of a primitive diesel engine and a prehistoric transmission?
Which if this [zb] is to be believed “was a lot more than 5 tonne” would have had the DFT and VOSA on your back
.
(1) If you must split hairs. 
8-9 t is nearly twice as much as 5t 
But how much does ‘a lot more’ have to be before it satisfies your criterea and even if it’s less than 8t that’s still a lot more than 5 tonne in the context of a four wheeler rigid load or as a percentage of the total payload that btd says that so called useless tractor unit,with a so called prehistoric transmission,managed to haul through a North American winter and which both my old guvnor and myself would agree would’nt make much/enough difference,in the context of sufficient drive axle weight and traction,on a 4x2 artic,than if it was an empty artic regardless of wether it was 4x2 or 6x4.However the advantages which the 6x4 has in contact area between the road and it’s drive wheels are the relevant part in this context which would explain how a (very) lightly loaded 6x4 artic can keep going in conditions which would be far more likely to stop a 4x2 or a 6x2.
(2) If you’re running by the regs since when does a fully freighted 6x2 become a 4x2 because that would have VOSA on your back.
(3) Why does anyone need to have actually driven through an ice storm or ice rain in Europe to know that it does’nt matter where you are driving geographically,or what type of weather conditions caused it,if a road is zb slippery and/or covered in ice and/or snow the issues related to traction are all the same.
(4) I have’nt driven (a truck) in continental Europe so what neither had you before the first time you went in just the same way that I have’nt but our different views,concerning different axle and driveline layouts,would be just the same and held by many others regardless it’s therefore irrelevant.
(5) You’ve said that my statements are pure make believe.Based on what evidence .
(6) Where have I said that I must be better than anyone else .Although in the context of your posts it’s you who seems to think that experience of running here in bad conditions is’nt as valid as that of running in other parts.
(7) On the question of wether those Safeway artics were empty or not what’s the relevance see (1).The fact is they were stuck because of the traction issues caused by the combined limiting factors of drive axle weight,versus combination weight,versus the available amounts of friction co efficients between road and drive wheels.Which is why I kept moving and they did’nt because any or all of those factors are different for a rigid in just the same way that they’re different for an artic pulled by a 6x4 tractor unit versus a 4x2 or a 6x2.
So Currywurst, I’m going to humour you momentarily, you’re driving down the road in your unstoppable 6x4, diff locks and cross locks engaged, you need this as a single axle with twin tyres is unable to get traction, with me so far?
How the [zb] do you get a single tyred, single axle carrying far less weight than even a single drive axle, to steer round corners 
I’m tired of this now, you’re coming up with all these ideas, but you have no real world experience of winter driving, save for a couple of inches on Reigate Hill every couple of years or so, if you had any idea you would realise that if you’re driving on a road with weather so bad that you need double drive and diff locks engaged just to keep moving, it’s time to park up and wait for the storm to pass and the ploughs to come out and clear the road
so have you 2 finished mass debating with each other yet? crikey your hands must be tired with all that typing 
Cruise Control:
so have you 2 finished mass debating with each other yet? crikey your hands must be tired with all that typing
Two?
No CC, there’s 6 of us against 2, myself, KR79, krybo, BTD, Wheelnut and flysheet against Crazyfreak and his alter ego ‘doesn’t know when he’s beaten’ in a way it’s just like a 6x2 really
I have never said anything derogatory about my truck. I think this is the best truck I have ever driven, in fact. My “guvnor” would not treat me with that much disrespect, anyway. If I said it, he would ask about my reasons.
You say all these things about the weather. Well the daytime high where I was today was -26. That, I believe, is still lower than the coldest recorded temperature in the UK… ever. Yes, this is Canada, not the UK or Europe, but I have known daytime highs of -15 in Europe before, and I used to take my “useless” 4x2 Renault, with liquid tanker, into all sorts of areas with little trouble. If you haven’t been there yourself, then you are just blowing hot air. If there was room, on the occasion you mention, to fit the 8 or 9 tonnes of freight on a 4 wheeler then WTF was it doing being loaded on an artic in the first place?
Just so you know, the 5 tonnes I have on board are double decked ATVs. They take the entire 53’ of trailer and are up to the roof. I will try to get pictures in the morning so you can actually get an idea.
Your impression of these wonderful 6x4s instead of a good 6x2 are made up from your lack of experience. I don’t care how long you drove, you didn’t drive in the conditions you are trying to describe.
jeeeeesh has he still not shut up ■■ … ffs will someone switch him off … 
Who, Bowser?
newmercman:
So Currywurst, I’m going to humour you momentarily, you’re driving down the road in your unstoppable 6x4, diff locks and cross locks engaged, you need this as a single axle with twin tyres is unable to get traction, with me so far?How the [zb] do you get a single tyred, single axle carrying far less weight than even a single drive axle, to steer round corners
I’m tired of this now, you’re coming up with all these ideas, but you have no real world experience of winter driving, save for a couple of inches on Reigate Hill every couple of years or so, if you had any idea you would realise that if you’re driving on a road with weather so bad that you need double drive and diff locks engaged just to keep moving, it’s time to park up and wait for the storm to pass and the ploughs to come out and clear the road
I really could’nt be bothered but zb it I will because it’s an insult to my intelligence.If I’ve got no real world experience of winter driving then who the zb was driving the trucks,which I drove every day,or night, every winter,over more than a 20 year period,everything from 7.5 tonners,4x2 and 6x4 rigids and,for the majority of those years (15) I drove 4x2 artics and 6x2 wagon and drags .Or was it that every British winter between those years got cancelled just to suit your argument .So now you’re saying that btd drove all that way with his diff locks and cross locks in and you’re also saying that just because a single drive axle lets go both sides with or without it’s locks in that a double drive will also do the same .In the real world what happens in bad conditions,long before they get bad enough to park up,just driving along a motorway,without any diff locks being used,or needed at all,is that instead of a bit of wheelspin on either individual axle or individual wheel,that you’d (sometimes) get with a double drive,a 4x2 will just lose traction on both sides and therefore you’ve totally lost ‘all’ grip,and therefore tyre contact with the road at the rear of the unit.At best the momentum will keep it moving until it regains traction,which is how I did’nt get stuck,or worse, at any time more by luck than judgement,or at worst the thing will jacknife.But that idea of waiting for the ‘storm’ to pass seems a bit of a bad idea if you get weeks or months of continuous bad winter weather.But if you do need those diff locks to get going they’re far more effective,together with crosslocks,on a 6x4 than they are on a 4x2 considering the spread and the amount of driving wheel contact with the road .But just for kyrbo’s benefit exactly how much weight did btd have on each of those double drive axles on his unit with an evenly spread 5 tonne load on a 53 foot trailer .
bobthedog:
I have never said anything derogatory about my truck. I think this is the best truck I have ever driven, in fact. My “guvnor” would not treat me with that much disrespect, anyway. If I said it, he would ask about my reasons.If there was room, on the occasion you mention, to fit the 8 or 9 tonnes of freight on a 4 wheeler then WTF was it doing being loaded on an artic in the first place?
Just so you know, the 5 tonnes I have on board are double decked ATVs. They take the entire 53’ of trailer and are up to the roof. I will try to get pictures in the morning so you can actually get an idea.
If it’s the ‘best truck you’ve ever driven’ then what the zb are you complaining about when you say that a 4x2 unit would have made a better job of hauling a 5 tonne payload in those conditions .
The reason why that rigid was’nt used,before we commandeered it for obvious reasons,is probably similar to the ones why you only had 5 tonnes on a 53 foot artic trailer.Operational requirements.Night trunking was all done by artics not four wheeler rigids.The rigids were only used for day bulk and 7.5’s for multi drop.So the artics always ( but not in this case ) went out with whatever weight and load it happened to be which could be anything from fully freighted to zb all depending on how busy we were.By the way for my trouble that night all I heard when I got back (late) was the day bulk driver moaning because he wanted to know why his wagon was being used for a night trunk.
Beef:
Most trucks have the lift axle in front of the drive axle, but some have it behind the drive axle. Why is this
Wheel Nut:
Beef:
Most trucks have the lift axle in front of the drive axle, but some have it behind the drive axle. Why is this
Who cares.
Carryfast:
bobthedog:
I have never said anything derogatory about my truck. I think this is the best truck I have ever driven, in fact. My “guvnor” would not treat me with that much disrespect, anyway. If I said it, he would ask about my reasons.…
Just so you know, the 5 tonnes I have on board are double decked ATVs. They take the entire 53’ of trailer and are up to the roof. I will try to get pictures in the morning so you can actually get an idea.
If it’s the ‘best truck you’ve ever driven’ then what the zb are you complaining about when you say that a 4x2 unit would have made a better job of hauling a 5 tonne payload in those conditions
Because it would’ve got less wheel spin.
First, one gets wheel spin when engine output power at that moment is too much for tyres to transfer to the surface. You get this limit when you multiply friction coefficient between road surface and drive axle tyres with weight on said tyre. In conditions BTD described he seemed to be constantly near the edge of this limit on a solid surface and if I read it correctly a pretty gently push to the pedal did get his wheels spinning.
Amount of force he could transfer per tyre was Force = coefficient * weight. Amount of force is limited by a single tyre because when one tyre spins all the power from engine beguns to go to the surface via that tyre (one driven tyre, you know). I’m now making a numbers bit of a hat, but I’d think their magnitude is close enough to reality for this example hold true. So, lets say weight over his rear axle is 4 tonnes from bogie, 1.5 tonne from trailer and 2 tonne from the load, making total weigh 7,5 tonnes. When you divide this by four you get a weight on a single double tyre which would be around 1875 kg. For a 4x2 unit drive axle weight is something like 2 tonnes less, which makes weight on a double tyre be around 2,75 tonnes. With this knowledge, when friction coefficient stays the same (which it will), 4x2 unit can transfer something like (1 - 2750kg/1875kg) * 100% = 47% more force to the surface before wheel spin occurs. This is why BTD said 4x2 would’ve made better job hauling his load in those conditions.
6x2 unit with tag axle lifted would have around the same, or bit more weight on drive axle than 6x4 would have on it’s bogie (due to load transfer effect on lifting the tag) even though it weighs a bit less than 6x4 unit. This means 6x2 unit can transfer something like (1 - 3750kg/1875kg) * 100% = 100% more force to the surface than 6x4 unit before wheel spin occurs.
Engaging cross lock doesn’t give 6x4 an edge on this situation as it would got wheel spin on both axles and 4x2 could still transfer more force to the surface without wheel spin than the combined forward force coming from 6x4’s spinning tyres is.
It appears that this thread is getting up some people’s noses, yet they still continue to read through it, don’t really get that one, personally I look at the topic, if I’m interested, I click my mouse, if not I just don’t read it
Now, whether you like it or not, this thread is a perfect example of the internet forum, everyone has a different view, because that’s all this thread is about, people’s opinion, it started out with a question, which was answered, then developed into a battle of wills between Crazyfast and the rest of us, nobody is right or wrong, we’re not talking about any facts, just our opinions, in all honesty I don’t care one way or another, I’ve driven every configuration discussed, I’ve not been stuck with loss of traction in any of them
Crazyfast seems to get more than his fair share of derogatory comments, from myself included, most of them are tongue in cheek, however he is, without doubt, stark raving bonkers, but I tell you what, I’d much rather read through his incessant ramblings, than read through the whining and grizzling a lot of posters on here seem to post
Oh and BTW, krybo is the man here, he’s got it spot on
I couldn’t have put it down better than newmercman did. I’ve looked amazed (and been glad) that this thread has got this much posts without degrading into posts about ones person or into a open flame war. This thread has truly been joy to read as posters really have written about something interesting and not only whined and grizzled
Btw, about the force I talked in my post, it just struck my mind that maybe Carryfast has The Force (you know, relative to Luke Skywalker or something, the Jedi thing) at his service and hence couldn’t care less about what other posters tell him. He can just use The Force to shove him along in a bad weather 
he has got something dont know if its the force. But i quite like nutters and i seem to be a magnet for them.
Kyrbo:
I couldn’t have put it down better than newmercman did. I’ve looked amazed (and been glad) that this thread has got this much posts without degrading into posts about ones person or into a open flame war. This thread has truly been joy to read as posters really have written about something interesting and not only whined and grizzledBtw, about the force I talked in my post, it just struck my mind that maybe Carryfast has The Force (you know, relative to Luke Skywalker or something, the Jedi thing) at his service and hence couldn’t care less about what other posters tell him. He can just use The Force to shove him along in a bad weather
It’s only those of us who’ve driven one of these who have the force. 
It’s the only wagon where traction stays the same as it gets lighter. I forgot to put that on my cv when I wrote it out because I did’nt think it was relevant to the argument being that it’s a special types 6x6 around 38 tons almost 40 foot long and 10 feet wide and I was driving them as a new driver when I first got my licence and before that offroad.
So you drove 6x6s now… But were they artics? Hmm, thought not.
I have not been complaining about my truck… Don’t know where you get the idea I have been. I merely said that I would have had more traction in a 4x2 on this trip. You really need to look a little closer… May I suggest Specsavers? (other opticians are available)
End of the day, you are applying your ideas of rigids to artics and, dare I say, drawbars. It doesn’t work the same way at all. I know you think it does, but that merely shows your mind to be somewhat like the railways in the UK… Single track, broken and unreliable…
Now in the real world, we know that 6x4s have their place. We also know that there is room for other configurations which are, in general terms, equally as efficient or more efficient than your beloved 6x4s.
Let me apply some sort of metaphor to this for you. Pushing a wheelbarrow is much easier if you stand on tiptoes than if you push with your feet flat on the floor. The only reason for this must be because tiptoes is like a 4x2 tractor. If you don’t believe me, try it next time they let you work in the asylums garden and you will see I am right…
How can you tiptoe in wellies Bob?