removalboy:
Cruise Control:
I can sum this thread up in one sentence,Carryfast loves mass debating
Carryfast:
It’s only when you lose traction completely, on one side of an axle,that the diff then sends all the drive to that wheel.But that does’nt really matter at 50 or 60 mph because you don’t generally lose all traction,at that speed,on one side of one or two drive axles …
So you agree that once you’ve got your speed up it doesn’t matter if you have 4x2, 6x2 or 6x4 as they all can transfer the required force to the surface. Good. 6x4 and 6x2 are still safer in case you do lose a traction as the extra axle provides more sideways support so you don’t get jack-knifed so easily.
Carryfast:
… But the issue,of the possibility of one side losing traction,when running at slow speed or stopped,also applies to single drive axles just the same,but you don’t have the advantage of being able to use the traction provided by having the combined traction co efficient of the two drive axles just like I said in that case.
But with one drive axle you get wheel spin later than you get with 6x4 (due to one side losing traction) This is because 6x4 has lower axle weights per drive axle than lorries with single driven axles, like has been stated in this thread. In practice this means you get further with single drive axle than with 6x4 as long as your drive axle tyres reach solid surface AND you know how to use equipment you are given, especially when you have 6x2. For example newish FH’s (FH12 at least from Mk. 2 onwards) transfer weight from lift axle to drive axle with a single button press so that drive axle gets loaded to legal maximum weight. With a second press of that same button drive axle gets loaded 30% overweight. For what I know this is factory fitted standard feature on all three+ axle FH’s (and FM’s) with rear air suspension.
BTW as you like the Youtube clips, here’s an great example showing what single driven tyre means with a 6x4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UobLbfRZloA
About the clip of closed Autobahn you posted, what do you really think, are the lorries on the side of the road because they were stuck there or because they were ordered to stop there?
Kyrbo:
Carryfast:
It’s only when you lose traction completely, on one side of an axle,that the diff then sends all the drive to that wheel.But that does’nt really matter at 50 or 60 mph because you don’t generally lose all traction,at that speed,on one side of one or two drive axles …So you agree that once you’ve got your speed up it doesn’t matter if you have 4x2, 6x2 or 6x4 as they all can transfer the required force to the surface. Good. 6x4 and 6x2 are still safer in case you do lose a traction as the extra axle provides more sideways support so you don’t get jack-knifed so easily.
Carryfast:
… But the issue,of the possibility of one side losing traction,when running at slow speed or stopped,also applies to single drive axles just the same,but you don’t have the advantage of being able to use the traction provided by having the combined traction co efficient of the two drive axles just like I said in that case.But with one drive axle you get wheel spin later than you get with 6x4 (due to one side losing traction)
BTW as you like the Youtube clips, here’s an great example showing what single driven tyre means with a 6x4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UobLbfRZloA
About the clip of closed Autobahn you posted, what do you really think, are the lorries on the side of the road because they were stuck there or because they were ordered to stop there?
You’ve forgotten to factor in the combined ‘total’ traction/grip coefficient put to the ground of two drive axles loaded at less individual weight each (9.5t x2 ) versus a single one loaded at 11t or probably less in the real world with a 6x2 configuration.Trying to get round that problem by transferring the weight from the undriven axle of a 6x2 onto the driven one,will sooner or later,get you nicked (here and in America) for an axle overloading offence and/or just dig the drive axle in deeper if it’s loose,relatively deep, snow or mud etc.6X2 and 6x4 providing better resistance to jacknifing agreed.Which is another reason why the yanks don’t like 4x2 tractor units.But the example of the dustcart just proved that it was’nt fitted with,or using,diff and crosslocks and that if the obstruction is good enough it will stop anything including a tank 
and the same applies to any truck,regardless of axle configuration,where it does’nt have ‘enough’ load on it’s drive axle/s and/or grip coefficient at the driving wheels versus it’s gross combination or train weight especially in the case of an empty or relatively lightly loaded artic or arguably the flawed idea of an artic outfit versus a drawbar outfit in that context at any weight.But the reason that they wanted all those trucks parked up in Germany was because they knew what would happen if they tried to keep going although having said that the drawbar outfits probably would’nt have been the ones that got stuck that would more likely have been the 4x2 artics .But no one ‘ordered’ anyone to stop in Northampton or any of the other British motorways and roads that get blocked by stuck 6x2 and 4x2 artics every time we get a few inches of snow here.
milodon:
Carryfast:
.Except that even their wagon and drags would be better if they were pulled by 6x4 prime moversI feel an apology coming on for agreeing with you in the past
When in a hole, the best soultion would be to stop digging. Why do you think you know better than all the scandinavian transport companies put together?
Because in the context of 4x2, 8x2 and 6x2 versus 6x4 and 8x4 all of the American,Australian and New Zealand ones put together know better.
Cruise Control:
I can sum this thread up in one sentence,Carryfast loves mass debating over 6x4’s
No I’m in a minority of one on this debate over here and in that context all of the mass debators are on the side in favour of 6x2 tractor units.
.
well the majority of asia and rural africa use a donkey and a cart to transfer goods from point A to point B, are you going to argue the superiority of a twin spoke wooden wheel for all carts rated 200kgs and upwards next? simply put, there is no need for a 6x4 for on-the-road transportation 99% of the time and its way cheaper to get a tow once or twice a year than to haul around an unnecessary drive axle 100% of the time.
milodon:
well the majority of asia and rural africa use a donkey and a cart to transfer goods from point A to point B, are you going to argue the superiority of a twin spoke wooden wheel for all carts rated 200kgs and upwards next? simply put, there is no need for a 6x4 for on-the-road transportation 99% of the time and its way cheaper to get a tow once or twice a year than to haul around an unnecessary drive axle 100% of the time.
But a 4x2 and 6x2 tractor unit is a lot closer to the idea of using a horse and cart than using a yank 6x4 tractor unit or prime mover is.
go and buy yourself a 6x4 cabover and rule the world then ffs
Carryfast:
.But the reason that they wanted all those trucks parked up in Germany was because they knew what would happen if they tried to keep going
The reason those trucks were parked up (probably following a request from the police to do so via the radio traffic reports) was because it would have been too dangerous to continue in those conditions. You could have as many driven axles as you like, the thing is, that autobahn has some killer downhill sections and anyone trying to tackle them in that weather in a truck would end up in a heap at the bottom
Inselaffe:
Carryfast:
.But the reason that they wanted all those trucks parked up in Germany was because they knew what would happen if they tried to keep goingThe reason those trucks were parked up (probably following a request from the police to do so via the radio traffic reports) was because it would have been too dangerous to continue in those conditions. You could have as many driven axles as you like, the thing is, that autobahn has some killer downhill sections and anyone trying to tackle them in that weather in a truck would end up in a heap at the bottom
But there’s not many killer downhill sections on the A14 at Northampton or on the M11. But the yanks seem to manage in the mountains or their industry would have to close down every winter.But the relevant bit is that one of our biggest firms seems to have got themselves into a ‘bit’ of a problem with the mixture of a muddy grass verge,wet road,and a 44 tonner trying to climb a 14% hill in Hampshire probably caused by loss of traction.
Carryfast:
But the relevant bit is that one of our biggest firms seems to have got themselves into a ‘bit’ of a problem with the mixture of a muddy grass verge,wet road,and a 44 tonner trying to climb a 14% hill in Hampshire probably caused by loss of traction.
The only relevant thing in that case was that the “driver” was a prize mammalian protuberance
i cant be bothered reading all this but please tell me carryfast dont think 6x4 means constant 4 wheel drive … ■■ you got to be kidding me you would never be able to turn corners if they were … i drive 8 wheelers and when you flick the diff lock and cross lock you struggle to turn on soft ground let alone tarmac … i’ve forgot to turn them off a few times and its very noticable when you drive on solid ground because you cant turn corners …
bowser:
i cant be bothered reading all this but please tell me carryfast dont think 6x4 means constant 4 wheel drive … ■■ you got to be kidding me you would never be able to turn corners if they were … i drive 8 wheelers and when you flick the diff lock and cross lock you struggle to turn on soft ground let alone tarmac … i’ve forgot to turn them off a few times and its very noticable when you drive on solid ground because you cant turn corners …
Yes constant 4 wheel drive ‘if’ you’ve got sufficient grip at each driven wheel for either of the diffs not to let go in just the same way that you’ve got constant 2 wheel drive with a 4x2,6x2,or 8x2 which is why it’s called 8x2,4x2 or 6x2 and 8x4 and 6x4 not 8x1,4x1or 6x1.You’re confusing the way that an unlocked drive axle works,in most situations,in which it’s driving at both sides,but just providing for the different distance that it’s running around corners each side,with the way that it works when it’s lost traction on one side relative to the other and needs to be locked the only difference between 8x2/4x2/6x2 and 6x4/8x4 being that you also need cross locks on double drive.But in all cases,locked or unlocked,in the real world,you’ve got around twice as much chance of getting through bad weather,or any type of bad traction situations (without overloading the drive axle) with double drive than you have with a single drive axle.But if it’s solid ground and neither side of the axle/s have lost traction why would you need to use the diff locks and/or crosslocks at all 
.The stuff about trucks only going in straight lines because they’re double drive is just bs.‘Unless’ you forget to turn off the diff locks and/or cross locks when you don’t need to use them.
Inselaffe:
Carryfast:
But the relevant bit is that one of our biggest firms seems to have got themselves into a ‘bit’ of a problem with the mixture of a muddy grass verge,wet road,and a 44 tonner trying to climb a 14% hill in Hampshire probably caused by loss of traction.The only relevant thing in that case was that the “driver” was a prize mammalian protuberance
Sounds like good old fashioned German justice is still in force.Ve haf vays of making you valk if ve decide zat you are guilty vizout trial and should no longer be driving.
Carryfast:
bowser:
i cant be bothered reading all this but please tell me carryfast dont think 6x4 means constant 4 wheel drive … ■■ you got to be kidding me you would never be able to turn corners if they were … i drive 8 wheelers and when you flick the diff lock and cross lock you struggle to turn on soft ground let alone tarmac … i’ve forgot to turn them off a few times and its very noticable when you drive on solid ground because you cant turn corners ….The stuff about trucks only going in straight lines because they’re double drive is just bs.‘Unless’ you forget to turn off the diff locks and/or cross locks when you don’t need to use them.
bs you say .■■ well i’ve driven double drive artic tippers that dont agree with you … sons of bithches to get round corners , and i dont care what you say i was sat in the drivers seat driving them so i do know that it aint bs … and how do you explain the one twin set spinning on wet muddy landfill until , and i repeat , until you flick in the diff and cross locks …■■ at which point they have trouble turning and that’s if you can get traction. i’m sorry carryfast but that is fact not hearsay cos i deal with it everyday.
oh and p.s . even on solid tarmac my "double drive " 8 wheeler has traction issues when empty it just wants to wheel spin when cornering , it will even do it loaded sometimes… it would be a different matter if i could dump air on one drive axle and tranfer drive onto one , dont you think.■■
bowser:
Carryfast:
bowser:
i cant be bothered reading all this but please tell me carryfast dont think 6x4 means constant 4 wheel drive … ■■ you got to be kidding me you would never be able to turn corners if they were … i drive 8 wheelers and when you flick the diff lock and cross lock you struggle to turn on soft ground let alone tarmac … i’ve forgot to turn them off a few times and its very noticable when you drive on solid ground because you cant turn corners ….The stuff about trucks only going in straight lines because they’re double drive is just bs.‘Unless’ you forget to turn off the diff locks and/or cross locks when you don’t need to use them.
bs you say .■■ well i’ve driven double drive artic tippers that dont agree with you … sons of bithches to get round corners , and i dont care what you say i was sat in the drivers seat driving them so i do know that it aint bs … and how do you explain the one twin set spinning on wet muddy landfill until , and i repeat , until you flick in the diff and cross locks …■■ at which point they have trouble turning and that’s if you can get traction. i’m sorry carryfast but that is fact not hearsay cos i deal with it everyday.
oh and p.s . even on solid tarmac my "double drive " 8 wheeler has traction issues when empty it just wants to wheel spin when cornering , it will even do it loaded sometimes… it would be a different matter if i could dump air on one drive axle and tranfer drive onto one , dont you think.■■
You’re right browser. Just ignore carryfast, best thing. When I was on low loaders the diff lock on the unit meant you were going straight ahead, or backwards. Those were your only options. You could forget trying to turn on hard ground and soft ground with it engaged because the drive wheels just pushed you straight on, even with the steering wheel turned. As the days wear on and carryfast’s post count increases, it’s becoming glaringly obvious that he’s never driven a wagon before.
Rob K:
bowser:
Carryfast:
bowser:
i cant be bothered reading all this but please tell me carryfast dont think 6x4 means constant 4 wheel drive … ■■ you got to be kidding me you would never be able to turn corners if they were … i drive 8 wheelers and when you flick the diff lock and cross lock you struggle to turn on soft ground let alone tarmac … i’ve forgot to turn them off a few times and its very noticable when you drive on solid ground because you cant turn corners ….The stuff about trucks only going in straight lines because they’re double drive is just bs.‘Unless’ you forget to turn off the diff locks and/or cross locks when you don’t need to use them.
bs you say .■■ well i’ve driven double drive artic tippers that dont agree with you … sons of bithches to get round corners , and i dont care what you say i was sat in the drivers seat driving them so i do know that it aint bs … and how do you explain the one twin set spinning on wet muddy landfill until , and i repeat , until you flick in the diff and cross locks …■■ at which point they have trouble turning and that’s if you can get traction. i’m sorry carryfast but that is fact not hearsay cos i deal with it everyday.
oh and p.s . even on solid tarmac my "double drive " 8 wheeler has traction issues when empty it just wants to wheel spin when cornering , it will even do it loaded sometimes… it would be a different matter if i could dump air on one drive axle and tranfer drive onto one , dont you think.■■You’re right browser. Just ignore carryfast, best thing. When I was on low loaders the diff lock on the unit meant you were going straight ahead, or backwards. Those were your only options. You could forget trying to turn on hard ground and soft ground with it engaged because the drive wheels just pushed you straight on, even with the steering wheel turned. As the days wear on and carryfast’s post count increases, it’s becoming glaringly obvious that he’s never driven a wagon before.
i was begining to wonder if he was full of it … i doubt he ever has driven a wagon…
bowser:
Carryfast:
bowser:
i cant be bothered reading all this but please tell me carryfast dont think 6x4 means constant 4 wheel drive … ■■ you got to be kidding me you would never be able to turn corners if they were … i drive 8 wheelers and when you flick the diff lock and cross lock you struggle to turn on soft ground let alone tarmac … i’ve forgot to turn them off a few times and its very noticable when you drive on solid ground because you cant turn corners ….The stuff about trucks only going in straight lines because they’re double drive is just bs.‘Unless’ you forget to turn off the diff locks and/or cross locks when you don’t need to use them.
bs you say .■■ well i’ve driven double drive artic tippers that dont agree with you … sons of bithches to get round corners , and i dont care what you say i was sat in the drivers seat driving them so i do know that it aint bs … and how do you explain the one twin set spinning on wet muddy landfill until , and i repeat , until you flick in the diff and cross locks …■■ at which point they have trouble turning and that’s if you can get traction. i’m sorry carryfast but that is fact not hearsay cos i deal with it everyday.
oh and p.s . even on solid tarmac my "double drive " 8 wheeler has traction issues when empty it just wants to wheel spin when cornering , it will even do it loaded sometimes… it would be a different matter if i could dump air on one drive axle and tranfer drive onto one , dont you think.■■
What’s the difference between a 6x2 and a 6x4 with unlocked diffs for going round corners. I’ve gone round mini roundabouts in town with 6x4 rigids and done u turns with them outside the house on a small residential road when I used to stop off for lunch at home.But I drove a 4x2 hauling bulldozers from landfill sites and a 6x4 would have made life a lot easier.In fact I often got the 6x4 artics to give the thing some help amidst lots of laughter from all concerned including me as to why they were too tight fisted to put a 6x4 on the job.But there’s no way that I can answer for all the issues which you’ve got with yours I’ve never driven it but I think that by dumping all the weight onto one drive axle you’d just get the same isssues on soft landfill sites that I had with mine.You’ll be asking all those with double drive for a tow.When it’s empty or lightly loaded it’s the same for everything because wether it’s 4x2,6x2,or 6x4 there just is’nt the weight on the drive axle/s as a ratio with the total weight of the outfit but that’s a lot worse in the case of an artic than a rigid.But the choice between 8x2,6x2,and 4x2 or 6x4 and 8x4 is just an issue of the choice between running with a much heavier drive axle to compensate for having less contact area on the ground between driving wheels and tyres.The drawbacks of the single drive axle are it’s lack of contact area with the ground and/or the laws concerning axle weights and the thing wanting to dig itself into soft ground or relatively deep snow if you want to compensate for having less contact area by having a much heavier axle.Simples.That’s why the double drive design is still used for tippers and landfill etc and it’s also relevant to ordinary road operations despite it’s arguable drawbacks.But as Krybo has shown it is possible to get a lifting double drive axle set up.Which is probably the answer.
bowser:
Rob K:
bowser:
Carryfast:
bowser:
i cant be bothered reading all this but please tell me carryfast dont think 6x4 means constant 4 wheel drive … ■■ you got to be kidding me you would never be able to turn corners if they were … i drive 8 wheelers and when you flick the diff lock and cross lock you struggle to turn on soft ground let alone tarmac … i’ve forgot to turn them off a few times and its very noticable when you drive on solid ground because you cant turn corners ….The stuff about trucks only going in straight lines because they’re double drive is just bs.‘Unless’ you forget to turn off the diff locks and/or cross locks when you don’t need to use them.
bs you say .■■ well i’ve driven double drive artic tippers that dont agree with you … sons of bithches to get round corners , and i dont care what you say i was sat in the drivers seat driving them so i do know that it aint bs … and how do you explain the one twin set spinning on wet muddy landfill until , and i repeat , until you flick in the diff and cross locks …■■ at which point they have trouble turning and that’s if you can get traction. i’m sorry carryfast but that is fact not hearsay cos i deal with it everyday.
oh and p.s . even on solid tarmac my "double drive " 8 wheeler has traction issues when empty it just wants to wheel spin when cornering , it will even do it loaded sometimes… it would be a different matter if i could dump air on one drive axle and tranfer drive onto one , dont you think.■■You’re right browser. Just ignore carryfast, best thing. When I was on low loaders the diff lock on the unit meant you were going straight ahead, or backwards. Those were your only options. You could forget trying to turn on hard ground and soft ground with it engaged because the drive wheels just pushed you straight on, even with the steering wheel turned. As the days wear on and carryfast’s post count increases, it’s becoming glaringly obvious that he’s never driven a wagon before.
i was begining to wonder if he was full of it … i doubt he ever has driven a wagon…
I’ve been increasingly thinking the same thing about some of those who I’ve argued with myself.But if that driver of that artic which got stuck across the road in Hampshire ever gets the chance to defend himself maybe he’d agree with me.