Legal Test Case Clarifies Ferry Rest Periods

Hi guys, ok I have a decent grasp of the ferry rules as I’m on at least 4 a week, (when I’m lucky) 6 or 8 when I’m not! There’s one part of the ferry shunt rule I don’t get and would be greatful for solid confirmation. No disrespect but if mick or jim said it it’s not really fact is it!
Let’s assume I spend 9 hrs 30 mins driving on Monday, I have clocked up 14 hours on my daily spread when I arrive at Dover.
Under normal circumstances I’d have half an hours driving time to find parking and an hour to do so. (still with me) :blush:
For arguments sake we’ll say its now 21:00, I book in at P&O and my ferry leaves at 01:00
(I know, delay’s again) :imp:
I drive to my lane (195) and end my day in the U.K
Now here’s where it gets confusing!!! Because this crossing doesn’t supply a bunk or couchette I can’t use it for a split break (this much I know)
So when I arrive at Calais at 02:50 gmt I’m going to drive to the Belgian border as I don’t like parking in Calais for obvious reasons, this shunt takes me approx 50 mins, and along with the shunt onto the ferry adds up to 54 mins, so all is still legal according to the 1 hour ferry movement rule.
QUESTION:
1: How long must I now rest for? (ie; 9 or 11 hours)
2: As I originally parked up at 21:00 do I now only need to complete 11 hours from then?
Meaning I am good to go at 08:00. Or do I need to take a minimum 9 hours from when I actually stop at Belguim border?
3. Was it even legal to go into the port as I only had 1 hour left on my daily spread, or should I have parked up outside port and taken 9 off there then continued on my way?

This is an ongoing issue with employers telling drivers “yea send it on and get an hour up the road in France” then insisting their break started when they (the driver) ended their day at the port in Dover, so in theory your setting off again at 8am with bits of sleep here and there through the nite.

I use the Liverpool / Holyhead routes all the time and I know the split break rule, so there’s no prob here.

I’m sure one of you guys know the answer to this, please please don’t start your reply,
" I think it go’s like this"
I’m listening to answers like this week in week out and there pointless unless your sure.

All the best, and keep her between the ditches.

rubberfluck:
Hi guys, ok I have a decent grasp of the ferry rules as I’m on at least 4 a week, (when I’m lucky) 6 or 8 when I’m not! There’s one part of the ferry shunt rule I don’t get and would be greatful for solid confirmation. No disrespect but if mick or jim said it it’s not really fact is it!
Let’s assume I spend 9 hrs 30 mins driving on Monday, I have clocked up 14 hours on my daily spread when I arrive at Dover.
Under normal circumstances I’d have half an hours driving time to find parking and an hour to do so. (still with me) :blush:
For arguments sake we’ll say its now 21:00, I book in at P&O and my ferry leaves at 01:00
(I know, delay’s again) :imp:
I drive to my lane (195) and end my day in the U.K
Now here’s where it gets confusing!!! Because this crossing doesn’t supply a bunk or couchette I can’t use it for a split break (this much I know)
So when I arrive at Calais at 02:50 gmt I’m going to drive to the Belgian border as I don’t like parking in Calais for obvious reasons, this shunt takes me approx 50 mins, and along with the shunt onto the ferry adds up to 54 mins, so all is still legal according to the 1 hour ferry movement rule.
QUESTION:
1: How long must I now rest for? (ie; 9 or 11 hours)
2: As I originally parked up at 21:00 do I now only need to complete 11 hours from then?
Meaning I am good to go at 08:00. Or do I need to take a minimum 9 hours from when I actually stop at Belguim border?
3. Was it even legal to go into the port as I only had 1 hour left on my daily spread, or should I have parked up outside port and taken 9 off there then continued on my way?

This is an ongoing issue with employers telling drivers “yea send it on and get an hour up the road in France” then insisting their break started when they (the driver) ended their day at the port in Dover, so in theory your setting off again at 8am with bits of sleep here and there through the nite.

I use the Liverpool / Holyhead routes all the time and I know the split break rule, so there’s no prob here.

I’m sure one of you guys know the answer to this, please please don’t start your reply,
" I think it go’s like this"
I’m listening to answers like this week in week out and there pointless unless your sure.

All the best, and keep her between the ditches.

well I think it go’s like this mate … sorry couldn’t resist :blush: :frowning:

Seriously though you answered your own question there mate, no bunk/couchette = no interrupted daily rest period, so in your example you should have stopped at 21:00 when you’d already done a 14 hour spread-over and then had a reduced daily rest period.

Furthermore the interrupted daily rest concession says that a regular daily rest period may be interrupted, there’s no concession for interrupting a reduced daily rest period which is all you have time for in your example as you’ve done a 14 hour spread-over when you start the daily rest period at Dover.

So even if you had access to a bunk/couchette on the ferry you would still not be able to legally have an interrupted daily rest period.

Although there’s some debate about the legality of when the driving time in an interrupted daily rest should be counted for, there is as far as I’m aware no question about you needing to take a regular daily rest period in order to use the interrupted daily rest concession.


Article 9 - (EC) 561/2006
<<<<<<:
Article 9

  1. By way of derogation from Article 8, where a driver
    accompanies a vehicle which is transported by ferry or train,
    and takes a regular daily rest period, that period may be
    interrupted not more than twice by other activities not
    exceeding one hour in total. During that regular daily rest
    period the driver shall have access to a bunk or couchette.

rubberfluck:
Hi guys, ok I have a decent grasp of the ferry rules as I’m on at least 4 a week, (when I’m lucky) 6 or 8 when I’m not! There’s one part of the ferry shunt rule I don’t get and would be greatful for solid confirmation. No disrespect but if mick or jim said it it’s not really fact is it!
Let’s assume I spend 9 hrs 30 mins driving on Monday, I have clocked up 14 hours on my daily spread when I arrive at Dover.
Under normal circumstances I’d have half an hours driving time to find parking and an hour to do so. (still with me) :blush:
For arguments sake we’ll say its now 21:00, I book in at P&O and my ferry leaves at 01:00
(I know, delay’s again) :imp:
I drive to my lane (195) and end my day in the U.K
Now here’s where it gets confusing!!! Because this crossing doesn’t supply a bunk or couchette I can’t use it for a split break (this much I know)
So when I arrive at Calais at 02:50 gmt I’m going to drive to the Belgian border as I don’t like parking in Calais for obvious reasons, this shunt takes me approx 50 mins, and along with the shunt onto the ferry adds up to 54 mins, so all is still legal according to the 1 hour ferry movement rule.
QUESTION:
1: How long must I now rest for? (ie; 9 or 11 hours)
2: As I originally parked up at 21:00 do I now only need to complete 11 hours from then?
Meaning I am good to go at 08:00. Or do I need to take a minimum 9 hours from when I actually stop at Belguim border?
3. Was it even legal to go into the port as I only had 1 hour left on my daily spread, or should I have parked up outside port and taken 9 off there then continued on my way?

This is an ongoing issue with employers telling drivers “yea send it on and get an hour up the road in France” then insisting their break started when they (the driver) ended their day at the port in Dover, so in theory your setting off again at 8am with bits of sleep here and there through the nite.

I use the Liverpool / Holyhead routes all the time and I know the split break rule, so there’s no prob here.

I’m sure one of you guys know the answer to this, please please don’t start your reply,
" I think it go’s like this"
I’m listening to answers like this week in week out and there pointless unless your sure.

All the best, and keep her between the ditches.

Right it goes like this. :wink: I think!!!

In a 24 hour period a driver must take 11 hours rest. - This leaves 13 hours to work and take coffee breaks.
You may reduce this 11 hours rest period to 9 hours 3 times per week. A simple sum makes 15 and 11 equal 26 hours.

To answer your last question first, you could only have a 9 hour rest period after a 15 hour spreadover.

For arguments sake lets say you arrive at Dover at 2100. You cannot go any further, you cannot use the ferry break in Dover. What you should do is park at 13 hours, have 11 hours off and stop worrying about where you are going to park in Euroland.

It has been done to death has this one, my mate told me so!

Gud stuff lads nd tnx for the replies. I was kinda sure you couldn’t go on to the ferry once you didn’t have time to get across and park within the 15 hrs spread, but ya know wat the suits say, keep her lit, until Vosa or the red caps pull you… Then it’s "you should have parked up nd crossed the next day… They chance their arm until ur stopped!

Again tnx and be safe…

So where are we now? The letter from Mike Penning said that the matter was being clarified by the DfT

Stephen Hammond has replied to my MP with this letter. https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1ees2Kp9WTKYnVCSHhlTUhCTTA (Opens with Google Docs)

Now I agree with him saying that nothing has changed, and I also agree that Article 4 says this;

(j) ‘driving time’ means the duration of driving activity
recorded:
– automatically or semi-automatically by the recording
equipment as defined in Annex I and Annex IB
of Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85, or
– manually as required by Article 16(2) of Regulation
(EEC) No 3821/85;

followed by;

as mentioned by Stephen Hammond

(k) ‘daily driving time’ means the total accumulated driving
time between the end of one daily rest period and the
beginning of the following daily rest period or between a
daily rest period and a weekly rest period;
(l) ‘weekly driving time’ means the total accumulated
driving time during a week;

and this;

(q) ‘driving period’ means the accumulated driving time
from when a driver commences driving following a rest
period or a break until he takes a rest period or a break.
The driving period may be continuous or broken.

Article 6 then states that;

  1. Daily and weekly driving times shall include all driving
    time on the territory of the Community or of a third country.

and this;

  1. A driver shall record as other work any time spent as
    described in Article 4(e) as well as any time spent driving a
    vehicle used for commercial operations not falling within the
    scope of this Regulation, and shall record any periods of
    availability, as defined in Article 15(3)(c) of Regulation (EEC)
    No 3821/85, since his last daily or weekly rest period. This
    record shall be entered either manually on a record sheet, a
    printout or by use of manual input facilities on recording
    equipment.

Now go back to Article 4, in particular Article 4e;

(e) ‘other work’ means all activities which are defined as
working time in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC
except ‘driving’, including any work for the same or
another employer, within or outside of the transport
sector;

And finally back in Article 6;

  1. By way of derogation from Article 8, where a driver
    accompanies a vehicle which is transported by ferry or train,
    and takes a regular daily rest period, that period may be
    interrupted not more than twice by other activities not
    exceeding one hour in total. During that regular daily rest
    period the driver shall have access to a bunk or couchette.

Now there seems to be quite a few anomaly’s in that statement when the EC561/2006 document is read in full.

Is it just me?

As an example of how ridiculous this seems to be, both of these things have been done by me.

Example A.
I have loaded a trailer in France and drive 9 hours to Cherbourg to take the late afternoon ferry. On route I had a break of 1 hour. I arrive at the French port and start my rest period at around 1500. I am called forward to embark at 1800 which takes 10 minutes. On the ferry I have a meal, shower and bed. The ferry arrives in Portsmouth around 22.30 and as I disembark they call me forward for exam in the shed which takes 10 minutes. Free to leave I then drive 40 minutes to Sutton Scotney and continue my interrupted rest period. I have done everything to the letter.

Start of Duty 6am
Break 1hr
Daily Driving 8h.30m :question:
Begin Daily Rest 15.00
1st interruption 18.00
2nd interruption 22.30
Two ferry movements. 1hr
Recommence Daily Rest 23.20

To my thinking I have driven for 9h30m. But according to the DfT I have only “driven” 8h.30m

portsmouth-port.co.uk/ferry_ … _parking_2

For any freight driver arriving from the Continent ‘out of hours’, VOSA allow a break in the rest period of one hour to allow for onward movement from the Port. The nearest truckstop is no more than a 10-minute drive away.

The next alternative is Sutton Scotney 40 minutes away.

Example B.
I leave Cherbourg after changing trailers and have had a full rest period of 11 hours. I drive down to La Brede which takes me 9h.30m. I have plenty of time so have two driving breaks, both are over 45 minutes. I park up outside Michelin tyres at 1900 and report to security as is the norm. He positioned his camera on my truck for security and gave me my unloading papers. 02.46 again this was normal at almost all the Michelin depots, occasionally they would allow you to drop the trailer on a bay or get the shunter to move the trailer. At La Brede, they had neither shunter or enough bays.

At 02.30 the guard knocked on my cab with French Coffee. I didn’t even get dressed, just a T shirt, pants and my sandals was enough to break the seal and reverse onto the bay. the whole thing took less than 5 minutes including drinking the coffee. I was back in bed while these blokes unloaded the trailer which took about 5 hours. When I woke up the trailer was empty, the papers behind my window screen wipers and I went off for a shower. In a morning the yard is empty, the staff only work during the night as the lorries are all out during the day.

Example A is legal and counts as a normal day, even leaving me two extended driving periods in that week. I feel very tired now.

Example B is against the law even though I was actually parked up for over 13 hours apart from the short interlude of 2 or 3 minutes opening the doors and reversing onto the bay. I feel as fresh as a daisy and ready for a full days work.

That cannot be right!

I was told only yeterday by VOSA…if you do a Split Rest i MUST have 11hrs rest in total.Then he tells me i do not have to start this rest period with 3hrs minimum.E.g. arrive at port 3pm.Rest till 4pm ,1st movement onto boat.Comence rest peiod again .Arrive in Euro 6hr later.2nd movement off boat.drive for say 30 mins. Comence rest again…Now he says i need to take a further 4hrs daily rest,to complete 11hrs.I was always under the impression you had to start a split rest with a min of 3hrs.Basicly he says there isnt any set time,just that you MUST have 11hrs in total.Also,if you have not enough time to start and complete a boat trip in your 15hr spread,you are supposed to park up ,and get the boat AFTER completing a daily rest period.Ok,so what do the rest of you think,you who do this boat trip every other day etc.Is VOSA man right,or does the interpreting of the rule alter between different VOSA regions on this 3hr split rest rule ?.Regards,Mick.

mickevans1957:
I was told only yeterday by VOSA…if you do a Split Rest i MUST have 11hrs rest in total.Then he tells me i do not have to start this rest period with 3hrs minimum.E.g. arrive at port 3pm.Rest till 4pm ,1st movement onto boat.Comence rest peiod again .Arrive in Euro 6hr later.2nd movement off boat.drive for say 30 mins. Comence rest again…Now he says i need to take a further 4hrs daily rest,to complete 11hrs.I was always under the impression you had to start a split rest with a min of 3hrs.Basicly he says there isnt any set time,just that you MUST have 11hrs in total.Also,if you have not enough time to start and complete a boat trip in your 15hr spread,you are supposed to park up ,and get the boat AFTER completing a daily rest period.Ok,so what do the rest of you think,you who do this boat trip every other day etc.Is VOSA man right,or does the interpreting of the rule alter between different VOSA regions on this 3hr split rest rule ?.Regards,Mick.

A split rest period is not a ferry movement. A split rest period must be 12 hours minimum, 3+9

To use a ferry you may interrupt a rest period 2 times but it must always consist of 11 hours in total. All this post did was say that the time taken to move on and off the boat does not need to be counted as driving time

mickevans1957:
I was told only yeterday by VOSA…if you do a Split Rest i MUST have 11hrs rest in total.Then he tells me i do not have to start this rest period with 3hrs minimum.E.g. arrive at port 3pm.Rest till 4pm ,1st movement onto boat.Comence rest peiod again .Arrive in Euro 6hr later.2nd movement off boat.drive for say 30 mins. Comence rest again…Now he says i need to take a further 4hrs daily rest,to complete 11hrs.I was always under the impression you had to start a split rest with a min of 3hrs.Basicly he says there isnt any set time,just that you MUST have 11hrs in total.Also,if you have not enough time to start and complete a boat trip in your 15hr spread,you are supposed to park up ,and get the boat AFTER completing a daily rest period.Ok,so what do the rest of you think,you who do this boat trip every other day etc.Is VOSA man right,or does the interpreting of the rule alter between different VOSA regions on this 3hr split rest rule ?.Regards,Mick.

Either you or the VOSA bloke is getting a split daily rest period mixed up with an interrupted daily rest period.

A split daily rest period requires you to have a rest period of at-least 3 hours during the shift then another rest period of at-least 9 hours at the end of the shift, the 9 hour rest period must be completed within the 24 hour period from the start of the shift.

An interrupted daily rest period (which is what the VOSA bod was talking about) is when you interrupt a daily rest period to board/disembark a ferry or train.
When travelling by ferry or train a regular daily rest period can be interrupted no more than twice and the total interruption must not be more than 1 hour in length.
Legally you can only interrupt a daily rest period if when on the ferry/train you have access to a bunk or couchette, the interruptions must not result in a daily rest period totalling less than 11 hours and the total daily rest period must be completed within the 24 hour period from the start of the shift.

from first hand knowledge and not my mates ? regarding ferry crossings and the two movements on and off the ferry ,
first I want you to know I was stopped by vosa and fined £2005 :blush: for not knowing the law on ferry crossings even though my then employer insisted he was 100% sure he was right until it came to paying the fine and then it was “I should know the law because im a professional driver and its all my fault” and to be honest I should have known the law or found out what the law says I can do , but any way this is what I was prosecuted for .

1.on getting to the port I put my truck on ferry break and the fact that I was at dover had no bearing on the case " you can use ferry break mode from dover- Calais" this wasn’t the problem the problems started because I was on 9hrs 55mins when I started my ferry break so 5mins driving on ferry and 20mins driving to a overnight parking area after I docked took my total driving to 10hrs 20mins which was my first offence which then ment I had a knock on effect with the rest of the things I was prosecuted for,such as, because I was not entitled to a ferry break I had not taken enough break due to the fact that I had reduced my break by moving twice.
2.MY BOSS TOLD ME I COULD :frowning: is not a defence believe me, and also don’t forget if you are taken to court for traffic offences the court will fine you and then the traffic commissioner will fine you for the same offence and when you come to renew your licence you will find the traffic commissioner will make you beg before they will renew it so next time your boss tells you you can do it remember he wont be keeping you and your family if you get your licence taken off you.

I assume you mean rest and not break?

How can you record rest on the dover-calais ferry? - do they have bunks for you to use?

ROG:
I assume you mean rest and not break?

How can you record rest on the dover-calais ferry? - do they have bunks for you to use?

Norfolk Line had some vibrating recliners but I believe they have removed them now

ROG:
I assume you mean rest and not break?

How can you record rest on the dover-calais ferry? - do they have bunks for you to use?

yes ■■?

ROG:
I assume you mean rest and not break?

How can you record rest on the dover-calais ferry? - do they have bunks for you to use?

yes you not been on the ferry then ■■?..

4aaaa4dd:

ROG:
I assume you mean rest and not break?

How can you record rest on the dover-calais ferry? - do they have bunks for you to use?

yes you not been on the ferry then ■■?..

I have read posts from other drivers on here that the dover-calais ferry does not have bunks or similar in which case it cannot be used for rest

4aaaa4dd:

ROG:
I assume you mean rest and not break?

How can you record rest on the dover-calais ferry? - do they have bunks for you to use?

yes you not been on the ferry then ■■?..

It might be that you’re not sure of the definitions and conditions of ‘rest’ and ‘break.’

They are two completely different things.

The Dover - Calais ferry cannot be used for rest, if it doesn’t have bunks or couchettes available.
It’s well known that a driver is not allowed to stay in their cab during the crossing.

It’s irrelevant that some people do actually get away with staying in their cabs if you’re stop-checked by Police/VOSA, because they know that a ‘rest’ cannot be taken on that crossing if it doesn’t have bunks or couchettes available.

And yes, I’ve been on many ferries in my 10 years as a Euro tramper, some of which can be used as rest.
(Not normally Dov - Cal though, cos you can usually only have a ‘break’ on that crossing.)

I’ll learn something if one of the current Euro drivers tells me that there are bunks/couchettes on a Dov - Cal ferry these days.

4aaaa4dd:

ROG:
I assume you mean rest and not break?

How can you record rest on the dover-calais ferry? - do they have bunks for you to use?

yes you not been on the ferry then ■■?..

i

I will presume you have “not” been on the Dover Calais service then. Because they do not have bunks anywhere.

turnip:

4aaaa4dd:

ROG:
I assume you mean rest and not break?

How can you record rest on the dover-calais ferry? - do they have bunks for you to use?

yes you not been on the ferry then ■■?..

i

I will presume you have “not” been on the Dover Calais service then. Because they do not have bunks anywhere.

Unless any of the newer operators have started providing bunks than I agree with David. Even when they used the old Zeebrugge ferries on the shorter route, the cabins were firmly locked with just a couple being available for a shower.

Couchettes are normally found on a train not a ship, they use bunks and hammocks, aarh :wink:

My understanding is that the ferry can only be included if the driver has access to a bunk couchette. Some Calais/Dover ferries do not have these. Is there anything in print to cover this off? Latest P&O vessels have such facilities but hard for VOSA to know which ferry you were on.

MotisFSA:
My understanding is that the ferry can only be included if the driver has access to a bunk couchette. Some Calais/Dover ferries do not have these. Is there anything in print to cover this off? Latest P&O vessels have such facilities but hard for VOSA to know which ferry you were on.

Hi MotisFSA,

I think it might be easier of any of the current Euro guys could tell us whether it is possible to use a cabin during a Dov - Cal crossing.

It might well be that the newer vessels have cabins/bunks, but if they aren’t allowed to be used, then the original point stands that it isn’t possible etc.

We have something a bit better than ‘in print,’ cos this is the relevant law on the subject…

Regulation EC 561/2006

Article 9(1)

  1. By way of derogation from Article 8, [edited to add: Article 8 covers the requirements for normal daily and weekly rest periods] where a driver accompanies a vehicle which is transported by ferry or train, and takes a regular daily rest period, that period may be interrupted not more than twice by other activities not exceeding one hour in total. During that regular daily rest period the driver shall have access to a bunk or couchette.

Which means that if a driver has no access to a bunk or couchette, the interrupted daily rest option on a ferry or train isn’t available.

I arrive at Calais get in lane and put my truck on ferry break … I drive on the ferry and at dover drive off and continue my 11hr break in Folkestone … been doing it for years and ive never had a problem with vosa when they stop me only had a problem when I didn’t have enough driving time left to get me to Folkestone in my two movements ? I think what we have here are people just making arguments for the sake of arguments and lets face it its illegal to smoke in trucks but ive never seen anyone get arrested for it…