Jackknife Myth.

Carryfast:

FarnboroughBoy11:
I only jackknife when I’m empty and it’s wet… But a bit of opposite lock always brings it back. They don’t call me drift king for nothing you know.

Opposite lock won’t work if it’s jacknifing under braking.Drifting is another term for powersliding which in that case means jacknifing because of loss of traction under power.A jacknife under braking on a straight road is just a case of the unit trying to stop first before the trailer usually starting with the steer axle which makes the nose of the unit dive and the drive axle lift then the trailer tries to push the unit out of the way by pushing the light,possibly locked up,drive axle sideways.The answer to that situation is to have a system which balances the braking more in favour of the the trailer axles than the steer axle or in some cases in the past in North America removal of the steer axle brakes altogether.Weight distribution of the load is also a factor.If it’s heavy on the trailer axles and light on the unit rear/drive axle/s it’ll also be more likely to happen.

opposite lock can work

i’d say drifting and powersliding are not the same thing

i’ll let you take out your beloved yank tank with a brakeless front end solo before me thanks carryfast :laughing: :laughing:

newmercman:

Carryfast:

FarnboroughBoy11:
I only jackknife when I’m empty and it’s wet… But a bit of opposite lock always brings it back. They don’t call me drift king for nothing you know.

Opposite lock won’t work if it’s jacknifing under braking.Drifting is another term for powersliding which in that case means jacknifing because of loss of traction under power.A jacknife under braking on a straight road is just a case of the unit trying to stop first before the trailer usually starting with the steer axle which makes the nose of the unit dive and the drive axle lift then the trailer tries to push the unit out of the way by pushing the light,possibly locked up,drive axle sideways.The answer to that situation is to have a system which balances the braking more in favour of the the trailer axles than the steer axle or in some cases in the past in North America removal of the steer axle brakes altogether.Weight distribution of the load is also a factor.If it’s heavy on the trailer axles and light on the unit rear/drive axle/s it’ll also be more likely to happen.

OMG you’re at in on here too :laughing: Yeah lets take the front brakes our lorries, that’ll make them stop better ffs :unamused:

I actually said that’s how they balanced the situation between braking loads of trailer axles v the unit axles ‘in the past’.It’ s obvious that there’s probably a lot more electronics which can do a better job these days.Although as you’ve said the physics of weight and inertia can beat electronics depending on loads of different variables and if a driver tries hard enough to defeat them.

stevieboy308:

Winseer:
If your trailer starts to swing around the side of you, then you floor the accelerator (in the dry and straight) and flick the trailer brake/handbrake to effectively “jerk the combination straight again”.

If you’re going around a corner, it won’t work. If it’s icy it won’t work. If it’s wet, it might still not work.

There’s a reason of course that we have a yellow airline as well as a red one. You can drive it around on “only” the red, but I wouldn’t advise it. Shunters do it all the time, but even they run into the occasional bother come the rain and snow…

99% of jackknifes the back of the unit comes round, unless it’s in a film when 100% the trailer comes around :laughing: :laughing:

I remember seeing something as a kid on tv, might of been an advert or music video.
There was a little girl standing there looking at this tanker jack knifing towards her, it was in slow motion and it looks amazing with all the wheels locked up then a fella runs in and saves her… I remember it being really spectacular.
I think there was a song playing “search for the hero inside your soul” something like that. It was quality anyway!!!

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:

FarnboroughBoy11:
I only jackknife when I’m empty and it’s wet… But a bit of opposite lock always brings it back. They don’t call me drift king for nothing you know.

Opposite lock won’t work if it’s jacknifing under braking.Drifting is another term for powersliding which in that case means jacknifing because of loss of traction under power.A jacknife under braking on a straight road is just a case of the unit trying to stop first before the trailer usually starting with the steer axle which makes the nose of the unit dive and the drive axle lift then the trailer tries to push the unit out of the way by pushing the light,possibly locked up,drive axle sideways.The answer to that situation is to have a system which balances the braking more in favour of the the trailer axles than the steer axle or in some cases in the past in North America removal of the steer axle brakes altogether.Weight distribution of the load is also a factor.If it’s heavy on the trailer axles and light on the unit rear/drive axle/s it’ll also be more likely to happen.

opposite lock can work

i’d say drifting and powersliding are not the same thing

Great so just try to get an artic back in line that’s jacknifed under braking by using opposite lock and see what happens.

And enter a drifting contest with a front wheel drive car. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Carryfast:

FarnboroughBoy11:
I only jackknife when I’m empty and it’s wet… But a bit of opposite lock always brings it back. They don’t call me drift king for nothing you know.

Opposite lock won’t work if it’s jacknifing under braking.Drifting is another term for powersliding which in that case means jacknifing because of loss of traction under power.A jacknife under braking on a straight road is just a case of the unit trying to stop first before the trailer usually starting with the steer axle which makes the nose of the unit dive and the drive axle lift then the trailer tries to push the unit out of the way by pushing the light,possibly locked up,drive axle sideways.The answer to that situation is to have a system which balances the braking more in favour of the the trailer axles than the steer axle or in some cases in the past in North America removal of the steer axle brakes altogether.Weight distribution of the load is also a factor.If it’s heavy on the trailer axles and light on the unit rear/drive axle/s it’ll also be more likely to happen.

Thanks for that Carryfast, believe it or not I do what jack knifing means :slight_smile:
And yes that is what I meant, empty, wet road, slight bend and power down with a loss of traction causing it to slide and jack knife in the worse possible case.

FarnboroughBoy11:

Carryfast:

FarnboroughBoy11:
I only jackknife when I’m empty and it’s wet… But a bit of opposite lock always brings it back. They don’t call me drift king for nothing you know.

Opposite lock won’t work if it’s jacknifing under braking.Drifting is another term for powersliding which in that case means jacknifing because of loss of traction under power.A jacknife under braking on a straight road is just a case of the unit trying to stop first before the trailer usually starting with the steer axle which makes the nose of the unit dive and the drive axle lift then the trailer tries to push the unit out of the way by pushing the light,possibly locked up,drive axle sideways.The answer to that situation is to have a system which balances the braking more in favour of the the trailer axles than the steer axle or in some cases in the past in North America removal of the steer axle brakes altogether.Weight distribution of the load is also a factor.If it’s heavy on the trailer axles and light on the unit rear/drive axle/s it’ll also be more likely to happen.

Thanks for that Carryfast, believe it or not I do what jack knifing means :slight_smile:
And yes that is what I meant, empty, wet road, slight bend and power down with a loss of traction causing it to slide and jack knife in the worse possible case.

Then there’s the ‘other’ type in which the thing tries to fold up under braking.Just ask Harry Monk. :bulb: :wink:

FarnboroughBoy11:
I remember seeing something as a kid on tv, might of been an advert or music video.
There was a little girl standing there looking at this tanker jack knifing towards her, it was in slow motion and it looks amazing with all the wheels locked up then a fella runs in and saves her… I remember it being really spectacular.
I think there was a song playing “search for the hero inside your soul” something like that. It was quality anyway!!!

That wasn’t jacknifing, it was skidding, the trailer doesn’t come round in a jacknife, it carries straight on while the unit flips round, the end result may well be the same, but talk of steering or powering out of a jacknife show a basic misunderstanding of what actually happens. anyone who has had one will tell you the time from letting go to meeting your trailer is milliseconds!
As for there being many more, i’ll grant you there have been quite a few recently, but it was a lot more common back in the days before ABS

Carryfast:

stevieboy308:

Carryfast:

FarnboroughBoy11:
I only jackknife when I’m empty and it’s wet… But a bit of opposite lock always brings it back. They don’t call me drift king for nothing you know.

Opposite lock won’t work if it’s jacknifing under braking.Drifting is another term for powersliding which in that case means jacknifing because of loss of traction under power.A jacknife under braking on a straight road is just a case of the unit trying to stop first before the trailer usually starting with the steer axle which makes the nose of the unit dive and the drive axle lift then the trailer tries to push the unit out of the way by pushing the light,possibly locked up,drive axle sideways.The answer to that situation is to have a system which balances the braking more in favour of the the trailer axles than the steer axle or in some cases in the past in North America removal of the steer axle brakes altogether.Weight distribution of the load is also a factor.If it’s heavy on the trailer axles and light on the unit rear/drive axle/s it’ll also be more likely to happen.

opposite lock can work

i’d say drifting and powersliding are not the same thing

Great so just try to get an artic back in line that’s jacknifed under braking by using opposite lock and see what happens.

And enter a drifting contest with a front wheel drive car. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

i’ve told you before how to drift a front wheel drive car :wink: did you say some about being too old to learn new tricks :laughing: :laughing:

in the right circumstances braking can save you from a jackknife :wink: as can opposite lock

FarnboroughBoy11:

stevieboy308:

Winseer:
If your trailer starts to swing around the side of you, then you floor the accelerator (in the dry and straight) and flick the trailer brake/handbrake to effectively “jerk the combination straight again”.

If you’re going around a corner, it won’t work. If it’s icy it won’t work. If it’s wet, it might still not work.

There’s a reason of course that we have a yellow airline as well as a red one. You can drive it around on “only” the red, but I wouldn’t advise it. Shunters do it all the time, but even they run into the occasional bother come the rain and snow…

99% of jackknifes the back of the unit comes round, unless it’s in a film when 100% the trailer comes around :laughing: :laughing:

I remember seeing something as a kid on tv, might of been an advert or music video.
There was a little girl standing there looking at this tanker jack knifing towards her, it was in slow motion and it looks amazing with all the wheels locked up then a fella runs in and saves her… I remember it being really spectacular.
I think there was a song playing “search for the hero inside your soul” something like that. It was quality anyway!!!

yeah i’m sure it was an 80’s advert for something, i’m sure carryfast will remember because it was a big yank tank, probably double drive, not sure on the front brake situation though :laughing: :laughing:

Lube and kleenex at the ready Carryfast :grimacing:

Empty trailers, especially flatbeds are more prone to skidding, with or without abs.
Heading downhill fully loaded, your trailer is more likely to skid than it would on a flat surface.
I’ve had a new trailer that seemed ok when it was full, but it locked up and i nearly killed someone in manchesterafter i’d tipped. it turned out that it should have had a different abs suzie.
Then there is all the computer aided braking rubbish that they fit nowadays. when it’s new it’s great, but when it goes wrong it’s down right dangerous. and you don’t see it coming.
As a result of that i lost all brakes apart from the near side front on the unit, it was either off or full on. That could have been messy.

This is only my opinion but here goes.

Yes a genuine Jack Knife happens under hard braking when the tractor gets slightly out of line (trying to brake and swerve together will make it far worse) it only takes a fraction of a seconds drive axle lock up and the weight of the trailer will whip it round in a flash.

Lets get one thing out the way, once a genuine hard braking jacknife starts there is little if any chance of recovery, (opposite lock etc is tosh, thats for acceleration or cornering oversteer slides which are mistakenly called jacknife’s…idiot traffic reports in winter about stuck lorries being jacknifed for example.)

There was a small chance of recovery at one time when Scania used to fit the trailer brake handle, going back to Scania 110 days here, if you lifted off the footbrake and applied the trailer brake only then it might just straighten up again assuming the trailer was loaded, empty trailer probably not going to have enough grip to stop it.

This is not to be confused with the Dead Man or secondary brake which works on steering and trailer axles only, the Scania trailer brake was in addition to normal secondary braking.

I had a Scania with trailer brake, in practice you’d be using it in conjunction with the footbrake regularly, not only did it balance braking well it helped cut down on tractor unit brake wear, if you were pulling A N Others trailer… :wink:

It was an excellent fitment, needed care in use but a handy tool.

OK back to the modern lorry, and this my observed not engineering theory so i’m happy to be shot down in flames.

ABS is a good thing, as are modern brakes, but they are not perfect.

A lorry ABS does not perform as fast as a cars ABS does, you are dealing with compressed air and not hydraulics.
Air ABS systems cannot release and reapply the brakes anywhere near as quickly as a hydraulic system.

As such if a panic stop triggers ABS, it entirely possible that at the moment the tractor unit drive axle locks momentarily the trailer might already have locked up a moment before, therefore the trailer is shoving full weight at a locked wheel.
OK we’re ony talking milliseconds here, but factor in even a slightly out of straight combination and that millisecond can see the tractor starting to spin.

Does anyone remember the early ABS equipped trailers where ABS worked at all speeds, i’ve had trailers with particularly sharp brakes that the very second you touched them would lock up, re-application of braking took a second sometimes which feels like an hour, unfortunately the brakes would lock again and trigger another release etc.

OK thats done my theorising on ABS, probably all wrong.

Now to practicalities, its possible for drivers to lessen their chances of jacknife my setting their vehicles up properly and loading them better in the first place…not always possible i know.

I believe rightly or wrongly that the standard artic is safest when the tractor is loaded as reasonably heavy as possible obviously at or below its GVW.
I also believe that its best to get as much weight as possible onto the drive axle, less chance of it locking up prematurely if its imposing its full weight.

A bit of time spent setting the 5th wheel in the correct place for otimum loading is well spent.
I got a new tractor unit a few weeks ago, i have use of an axle weigher regularly and spent some time getting the weights exactly right…when it came the 5th wheel was too far forward putting more weight on the steer axle whilst leaving the drive axle light.
I could feel the uncomfortable imbalance on the road especially wet greasy corners, prone to too easy wheelspin.
Getting the weights right has made it handle much better, i try to do this on every vehicle i have had over the years.
Another benefit of correct 5th wheel positioning is to lessen the chance of oversteer slide on corners.

Loading.

If possible get that weight forward, an artic loaded so the trailer axles are up to max load whilst the tractor unit is 20% below its max is a jacknife waiting to happen.

I won’t get into good driving practice as you’re probably bored to tears already, such as allowing a braking distance and observing/assessing road surface condition and camber at all times, the good driver does this automatically.

Sorry the post has been so long, just my tuppence.

Dafman:

gonzothejaffa1:

weeto:

Dafman:
Why don’t they please explain

If you’ve been driving long enough, you should know.

he never has a trailer on long enough to find out :stuck_out_tongue:

I do like to get rid as soon as poss. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

and, sometimes, you even remember where you left it :wink: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

That brings back memories :smiley:

weeto:
Following on from another post, So, can some explain this myth? Since when on straight road will my artic jackknife if I break “to hard?”, seems to me there a lot of misinformed drivers out there telly stars included!
Modern trucks don’t jackknife on there own, I can only think of one major scenario were this is likely to happen, but hard braking? I don’t think so.

Heavy Load on the Rear.
So its heavy on Front Axle (Weight of Cab,Engine and Gearbox) and Last Axle,but wably in the Middn
Weight which presses rear down has lifting Energy to Front of Trailer

It’s them banana peels and turtle shells you’ve goto watch for… oh wait that’s Mario cart
Why doesn’t anyone think of the children http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

But no weeto since your trying so hard to jack knife (you must be on really boring shifts) find your icy and diesel covered road and turn on your engine brake :slight_smile: seen a few manage it that way in NEW trucks.

As said above there is no technology out there yet to make it impossible to jack knife and once it goes there very little you can do to stop it. new trucks make it slightly harder to but its still possible

billybigrig:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8LENbh_560s

Lube and kleenex at the ready Carryfast :grimacing:

Awesome advert!!!

Now days all we got is go compare crap and Sheila’s wheels.

Your wasting your time guys weeto or weirdo or whatever you call him can perform emergency stops on ice and indeed a road wet with diesel with no trouble whatsoever so what can anyone on here teach him.

hiya. their’s a tractor jackknife and a trailer jackknife. tractor is when you’ve maybe braked hard and the unit has
bent and the trailer pushes the unit backwards eventually. and a trailer jackknife is when you are brakeing on a
slippery surface the unit stays straight and the trailer slides sideways and tries to pass the unit… the tractor
jackknife is the bad one in my book, it snaches you backwards, hopefully on the passanger side.
if you go onto youtube and key in, lorry jackknife. theirs a small film showing testing a hope anti jackknife
system out on a skid pan. the unit has a cage to protect the driver.good little clip.i had a foot valve fail on me
one time. the trailer brakes snached on, no tractor brakes, the unit whipped round and smashed the cab.
beware on muddy roads they are a must for a jackknife.you try to get going the drive axle goes sideways
usually with the road camber, bang crash the trailer has hit the unit.certainly not a myth.
John

Hiya i never thought he may have a anti jackknife system fitted and dosen’t know.
weeto do you drive a petrol tanker.■■? i think they fit them as standard.
now don’t start asking about jackknife systems they are another thing altogether.
John