Hello all, Is`nt it funny, we all know the same places, but we never met, or even know each other! Only now, as more “senior” citizens, we talk of these places,and events, and can share a common theme! There is no doubt that in the late 70s, the standard of UK" International" operators , and their “staff”, fell to a low ebb. I can think of many, and name oh so many, that really should have been “locked up”, so bad was their attitude, and behaviour. Was it Barbara Castles stupid liberalisation of road transport licensing that allowed these “criminals” to enter our world? Certainly, working in France, Italy, and the Benelux Countries I dealt with a totally different calibre of operator, (both small, and substantial, proper business orientated operators, not those silly UK b…s, who could only see a headline rate, and knew nothing of costs, except not paying any bills, and grabbing whatever cash was available, and b…r paying the driver), and it did not, and still does not, make me happy)! Back from the USA, in the early 80s, I was aware of the real animosity that had grown between French operators , the French Police, and French Public opinion regarding “transit vehicles” from the UK, that along with friends that I had made within the FNTR, (French RHA), and the RHA in UK, and the London based French Chamber of Commerce, we set up a number of liason meetings, to iron out the problems, and hopefully find a middle ground. But of course it did not work! Why, it is obvious, from the UK, you had “genuine” operators, not the back street heroes and villans, who were really the probem, so 10out of 10 for effort, and 0 out of 10 for result, (but we had a good few lunches)!! So the Gendarmarie continued to give every UK Driver a hard time, (most unfairly may I add), but it was the fault of the “vagabonds” , and probably like many of you Gentlemen, (with far more “over the road experience” than me), I read with some incredulity the bragging, and even worse the “glorification” of the “exploits” of some of these outfits,and their “drivers” by so called journalists who really know little of the era!! These men, or their employers were not “heroes”, they were the start of the decline, and the eventual end of UK International Road Haulage. Jazzandy, I apologise if I have gone a little off your excellent thread, but I suspect that I am not alone in my feelings! Bon Chance mes Braves, Cheerio for now. (Hey I learned to drive a Mack Quadraplex box at the Dallas Mack Branch, 3611 Irving Boulevard Dallas Texas, thank you Vince for your tuition, I have never forgotten)!
Sorry Saviem, I have read all your very informative posts with great interest but you must be aware that there are many who will largely disagree with you.
Amongst the cowboys, and there were some who existed before liberalisation, there were many honest, hardworking small hauliers who had been frustrated for years at being kept out of the cosy closed club (‘our world’ as you call it) of international operators.
You should not generalise by saying that everyone in the 70s and 80s were criminals. I have helped, and been helped by, many such drivers in the years since.
My apologies too to Andy but it had to be said.
Spardo:
Sorry Saviem, I have read all your very informative posts with great interest but you must be aware that there are many who will largely disagree with you.
Amongst the cowboys, and there were some who existed before liberalisation, there were many honest, hardworking small hauliers who had been frustrated for years at being kept out of the cosy closed club (‘our world’ as you call it) of international operators.
You should not generalise by saying that everyone in the 70s and 80s were criminals. I have helped, and been helped by, many such drivers in the years since.
My apologies too to Andy but it had to be said.
Hear, Hear.
I have a feeling that like myself there will be a few of us Saviem followers who will have to disagree with his last post. It sounds like the old tar brush has been taken out of the yard lockup 
.
I’m going to leap to Saviem’s defence because although there were many decent Brits on the road, during a certain period in the late 70’s the standard crashed.
Partly to blame was the ridiculous permits system with the Beitish government being in the difficult position of being unable to negotiate for sufficient transit permits because Britain was not a transit country itself.
This meant that companies were breaking the law with dodgy permits in order to stay in business. I did a trip for Freightlanes to Vienna with essentially no permits at all using Veurne, Aachen Sud and Walserberg frontiers. In a way that ‘criminalised’ the drivers from the start and of course the red diesel scams also imbued drivers with a cowboy ‘bend the rules’ ethos.
The main problem however was the standard of the drivers coming forward for work and I saw a lot of them from the other side when I was transport manager at OHS. I ended up being thoroughly fed up with time wasters and my first question to them would be ’ When you get off the ferry in Zeebrugge where do you head for?'. If they couldn’t answer that one they were straight out of the door!
Jazzandy:
The main problem however was the standard of the drivers coming forward for work and I saw a lot of them from the other side when I was transport manager at OHS. I ended up being thoroughly fed up with time wasters and my first question to them would be ’ When you get off the ferry in Zeebrugge where do you head for?'. If they couldn’t answer that one they were straight out of the door!
Hello Andy, I have a strange feeling that if I said the sea wall or the Fina Garage then it would not of been the correct answer 
.
I am sure that we all remember the Callaghan and the Thatcher years when over 3,000,000 people were out of work 
, you can’t blame a bloke for trying to put bread on his families table but it’s good to know that some companies did give some lads a fair go.
Regards Steve.
I have to agree with Jazzandy concerning the permit situation and as an owner driver up until I sold up in 1990 when I had finally got an EC book for the last 2 or 3 years which was used properly by loading UK to Greece to Italy and then back to UK.
But when I started in the mid 70’s I was forced to run on all sorts of permits in europe even to get to the M/E, some of them might as well have had a picture of Mickey Mouse on them but the alternative was to park the truck up after having taken over the permit allocation of somebody who was pulling out of european haulage with the blessing of the permit office in Newcastle only for them to change their mind after a review 2 months later. If you consider how many British trucks left the UK compared to the amount of permits issued I’m surprised more people did’nt get caught, it would’nt have been so bad but the two countries that trucks had to transit, ie, France and Germany were the ones that issued ridiculously low quotas. Italian permits seemed to come with a couple of diecimila lire notes attached so were no problem and most of the others were on free quota. After several years of ducking and diving and running on permits/EC books from companies I subbed to, a few train journeys through Germany on I seem to remember a 2 for 1 permit basis I received enough German/Austrian/Yugo permits for transiting in the summer and by allegedly backloading a french company on numerous occasions a decent French quota came my way for transiting to Greece (even a couple of Italian which had to be ‘‘used’’ several times) and Spain.
I have to take issue with Saviem over the generalisation of most British hauliers and drivers being below standard, yes there were a lot of ‘‘bad apples’’ but there were also a lot of people just trying to make a living doing a job they liked under difficult conditions forced upon them by european bureaucracy; that and there was always the chance of being knocked for your money even by some of the reputable companies around, or it would take a long time to be paid due to some error in the accounts department.
Sorry to have a rant and hijack the thread but the decline of the International British Haulier really started with the fall of the Iron Curtain allowing for the influx of East European trucks into the UK with their low wages and subsidised vehicles making it unprofitable for UK trucks to venture into Europe. You only have to look at the amount of foreign trucks on British roads today (when I left three years ago there were probably 3 euro trucks to every 10 uk registered ones and I doubt it has gone down) to realize the UK haulage industry has been shafted again even to the point where foreign vehicles can do internal loads thus doing British hauliers out of work in their own country but then with the amount of foreigners living in the UK is it even our own country any more but thats a whole other thread and probably not for this forum…
chazzer:
I have to agree with Jazzandy concerning the permit situation and as an owner driver up until I sold up in 1990 when I had finally got an EC book for the last 2 or 3 years which was used properly by loading UK to Greece to Italy and then back to UK.
But when I started in the mid 70’s I was forced to run on all sorts of permits in europe even to get to the M/E, some of them might as well have had a picture of Mickey Mouse on them but the alternative was to park the truck up after having taken over the permit allocation of somebody who was pulling out of european haulage with the blessing of the permit office in Newcastle only for them to change their mind after a review 2 months later. If you consider how many British trucks left the UK compared to the amount of permits issued I’m surprised more people did’nt get caught, it would’nt have been so bad but the two countries that trucks had to transit, ie, France and Germany were the ones that issued ridiculously low quotas. Italian permits seemed to come with a couple of diecimila lire notes attached so were no problem and most of the others were on free quota. After several years of ducking and diving and running on permits/EC books from companies I subbed to, a few train journeys through Germany on I seem to remember a 2 for 1 permit basis I received enough German/Austrian/Yugo permits for transiting in the summer and by allegedly backloading a french company on numerous occasions a decent French quota came my way for transiting to Greece (even a couple of Italian which had to be ‘‘used’’ several times) and Spain.
I have to take issue with Saviem over the generalisation of most British hauliers and drivers being below standard, yes there were a lot of ‘‘bad apples’’ but there were also a lot of people just trying to make a living doing a job they liked under difficult conditions forced upon them by european bureaucracy; that and there was always the chance of being knocked for your money even by some of the reputable companies around, or it would take a long time to be paid due to some error in the accounts department.
Sorry to have a rant and hijack the thread but the decline of the International British Haulier really started with the fall of the Iron Curtain allowing for the influx of East European trucks into the UK with their low wages and subsidised vehicles making it unprofitable for UK trucks to venture into Europe. You only have to look at the amount of foreign trucks on British roads today (when I left three years ago there were probably 3 euro trucks to every 10 uk registered ones and I doubt it has gone down) to realize the UK haulage industry has been shafted again even to the point where foreign vehicles can do internal loads thus doing British hauliers out of work in their own country but then with the amount of foreigners living in the UK is it even our own country any more but thats a whole other thread and probably not for this forum…
The words nail and head spring to mind.
Morning Gentlemen,I take your criticisms on the chin, it is a subject that I feel strongly about, and have not intended to “Tar Brush” the whole industry. I agree that the lack of permits, and the ludicrous system of allocation created a situation whereby even “legitimate” operators were forced to operate on the fringes of legality. Why the UK Government never stood its corner over permit allocation is an unsolvable mystery, but the “cosy club” of RHA International members whose protection of their vested interests prevented them from lobbying the UK Government for even more liberalisation, and remember we in the UK have never, (apart from Lynda Chalker) have had a road transport friendly Minister of Transport. Yes, of course there were many, many hard working drivers and small hauliers,who tried to do a good job, but living and working in Europe I did see a massive slide, (and that is a mild definition), of standards!! And I did not like it then, nor do I now in hindsight! mushroomman, I agree with your comments on Eastern Europe, but the unfathonable mystery to me , is why does the road transport industry specialise, and perfect the art of supplying its services on an ever decreasing cost base?? Could it be that there is a oversupply of service providers? Cheerio for now.
Jazzandy:
Really strange that all the times I offloaded in Le Thilot I never saw an English truck on that road!
I was on Swiss or Dutch plates.
I hope we’re not going to fall out over this!
I’m impressed with the standard of comment from all the above posts and would love us all to be discussing this at the bahnhof cafe in Ludwigsburg in the depths of winter over a few beers and a wiener schnitzel while we wait for the Kombiverkehr train to Koln!
I hope we would all agree that there were many first clas Brits on the road with hearts of gold (us for example), but certainly I for one did run in to an awful lot of bad 'uns!
It’s embarrassing but true that of all the nationalities many of our comrades let the side down big time.
Totally agree jazzandy!!! Cheerio for now
I dont think that any of us would want to fall out, we all did our jobs differently so we all must have different opinions and it’s great to hear other peoples interesting anecdotes.
Just been sorting through the old photo shoebox and here are a couple of shots that Jazzandy might remember.
The car park at the Saint Valentine Hotel between Salzburg and Vienna.
An Iranian Mack taken at The Londra Camp Istanbul.
And Saviem might recall this French Company, Camion Sans Frontiers which was also taken in Istanbul, along with John Bruces elbow.
mushroomman:
An Iranian Mack taken at The Londra Camp Istanbul.0
Blimey, I bet Andy would have killed for that Aerodyne sleeper, even if it is only 5 feet long. 
Darn right I would! It’s surprising what you’ll put up with when you’re young. I was 27 on ICC. How we got a nights sleep across the seats goodness only knows. We used to stuff a suitcase plus cushions down between the driver and passenger seats but at 5 ft. Wide you couldn’t stretch out! However we did get quite a few nights B & B’ paid for so it wasn’t too bad.
I seem to recall that some of the Iranian wagons travelling to and from Europe were driven by Koreans. Were they driving for ICC? This would have been in 1975 and IIRC they usually had cab over American tractor units rather than bonneted.
ICC had folded by then. Those Koreans were probably driving for Iran Europe Carrier who had red R780 series Macks.
There were also a lot of Koreans working for Pars International Containers for whom I also worked after ICC.
They had an absolte mishmash of trucks as they bought out almost the entire inventories of several Dutch second hand dealers including Kleyn trucks near Breda. We used to ferry them to Tehran and then fly back. They also bought hundreds of second hand Macks and GMC’s from the States which were shipped to Rotterdam and then we drove them to Tehran. Then they bought several hundred brand new Mercedes which most of the drivers drove to Edirne in Turkey from where Phillipino drivers ( most of whom had never even driven a car before) took them in convoys of 30 odd with a Brit at the front and back through to Tehran. But that’s another story which I’ll post later.
Jazzandy:
ICC had folded by then. Those Koreans were probably driving for Iran Europe Carrier who had red R780 series Macks.There were also a lot of Koreans working for Pars International Containers for whom I also worked after ICC.
They had an absolte mishmash of trucks as they bought out almost the entire inventories of several Dutch second hand dealers including Kleyn trucks near Breda. We used to ferry them to Tehran and then fly back. They also bought hundreds of second hand Macks and GMC’s from the States which were shipped to Rotterdam and then we drove them to Tehran. Then they bought several hundred brand new Mercedes which most of the drivers drove to Edirne in Turkey from where Phillipino drivers ( most of whom had never even driven a car before) took them in convoys of 30 odd with a Brit at the front and back through to Tehran. But that’s another story which I’ll post later.
Sounds interesting Andy, we’ll look forward to that. 
I have to agree with saviem on this, sure there were hardworking decent people forced to use mickey permits and getting into the belly tank a bit early was not really a crime in the truest sense, but there were a bunch of cowboys involved in international road haulage. From the firms that loaded trailers, collected running money and dumped the trailers, through the unprepared drivers who dumped lorries all over the place, to the firms that sent drivers out with a pump and a hose and not enough running money and those that knocked their drivers as a matter of course 
He mentions France in particular and with good reason, there were far too many Brits up to no good in that country, not just mickey permits, but dodgy money/cheques/credit cards, belly tanks full of cherry, the pump and hose brigade, drivers running day and night, drivers getting ■■■■■■ up and fighting, the list goes on and on
I’ve been fortunate enough to work at some very good firms, but to get there I had to work my way up the ladder, so I saw both sides of the coin and being honest I have to say I earned more money when I was pulling a stroke or two, it was also a little more fun
I also agree with Chazzer, he summed it quite nicely
So everyone’s right really…back to ICC now please gentlemen
Here are a couple of Macks. One a British registered sleeper. The other shows the narrow cab of a re-furbished mixer.
nice looking mixer…dont have the cissy marker poles on our ones …lol
friendly Manitoba plate. is it a double tandem DMM.6x8…looks like a Lafarge vehicle.
jimmy