So been driving for 2 years now never really got round to finding out how some things work so thought I’d ask
Had a couple of wtd infringements in the past (misunderstood the rules when starting out). Is it true vosa don’t give fines for wtd?
Also had 1 driving hours infringement when I put it on other work instead of break by mistake. Is it true that after 28 days it’s unlikely they will do anything about it?
What kind of fine could I expect if I was stopped after this happened? Google is useless, only shows things like maximum possible fines and 500 links to unrelated stuff. Any actual examples?
Lastly, when I’m queueing at a yard and there’s 5+ others in front of me I usually put myself on break and turn the engine off, sit there for maybe 10 minutes until I move down one place in the queue with maybe 20 seconds driving. I put myself back on break again immediately, wait again and repeat until it’s my turn to load/unload.
Is this legal or should it be left on other work the whole time?
The DVSA do not fine people for WTD infringements, but if WTD infringements are a regular thing it’s likely to alert the DVSA to the companies lax attention to the regulations.
If you did a printout to explain the mistake the way you’re supposed to, it’s unlikely that the DVSA would do anything at any time.
As far as I’m aware, at a roadside checkpoint the DVSA do not generally check more than the previous 28 days.
I’ve done this myself on the odd occasion but I’d say it is debatable whether or not it’s legal, if you’re having to constantly watch the queue it could be argued that you cannot really relax properly.
Unless there’s a reason for using break I’d put the tacho on other work.
I agree with all your post, but have query on that last point.
The tacho will record a break when the vehicle is moved a short distance and the break is reset, agreed. But is it also true that the speed trace will record the movement?
This means that although a break is recorded, it is provable that you were not actually on a break. As you say, if you are keeping alert and must be sat in the cab, you are not on break at all.
I have done the same thing, on odd occasions, but anyone doing it regularly, would be better off changing IMHO. Unlikely to get caught maybe, but the consequences if caught may well be bad.
EDit to add.
Agreed that roadside checks only cover 28 days, but the operator must keep records for a year. If a company is under investigation, then there is no reason offences older than 28 days will not be seen and possibly prosecuted.
I may have asked this before cant remember.
I argue with my lot that my tacho should not be set to break default.
I was told it was to make sure that some of the other clowns showed breaks. obviously some of them aint been showing (and presumably not taking ) proper breaks when their tachos were set to other work default.
My argument was/is if you are out the cab working, but forget to change from break default to ‘cross hammers’, you then get back in to notice 45 mins break shown, you (if you were one of said clowns) could say…'Oh I don’t need a break now.. and crack on everything sjown to be legal…when it aint.
Also everytime it shows a break up to min 15 mins you have essentially made a false entry.
So technically (and I get the do a printout thing btw) is it bordering on illegality?
So again because of the inept, the proper drivers have to suffer unnecessary hassle.
You’re right about the speed trace recording the movement, I wasn’t really considering the fact that the tachograph would record a 20 second move as break and therefore any resulting driving break taken in that way would be fraudulent.
In the past when I’ve done this it has generally been more a case of record a short break then drive stop drive for a short period whilst keeping up with the queue then record another short break.
That’s not something I’d generally see the point in anyway but if for whatever reason needs must…
But yes, IF, the OP is recording driving breaks in this fashion it’s definitely illegal
I’m not attempting to pass off the 20 seconds of driving as rest that’s not the intention as I know it will still show up as driving when Inspected, I was thinking about it more from the point of reducing my overall working hours to keep my weekly average down.
But obviously I want to keep everything legal too so if it’s not going to be classed as break because I still have to keep an eye on the queue then I’ll just not do it any more.
Would I be able to use poa instead if for example I knew each vehicle in front of me would take roughly 10 minutes to unload? That is, with 10 minutes of poa, a few seconds of driving followed by another 10 minutes poa? Or is that bending the rules in a way that would get me in trouble?
If you’re recording breaks when you’re working and not doing printouts to show the mistake it’s definitely illegal, and if any of those falsely recorded breaks are used as driving breaks the driver best hope he doesn’t get caught
Tachographs that default to break are a pita imo, but it’s all a matter of personal preference I suppose.
If you know roughly how long you’ll be waiting I don’t see any reason why you cannot legally use POA, but remember that POA can in some circumstances wrongly reset the driving time shown on the tachograph display
Yeah that’s what I thought…and yeah deffo a pita.
As I said on other thread, I always make a point of taking proper breaks.
But as usual firms applying their rules according to the lowest common denominator.
Secondly the DVSA revised list of enforcement actions guidance:
Extensive lists of offences and penalties for offences. It does list actions against many hours breaches including short breaks and rests (daily weekly etc) exceeding driving times (session, day,week, fortnight) but nothing I can see about WTD problems?
It might not be a definitive list, but does include the actions if a haz vehicle has inadequate eye-wash, so is detailed!
I doubt they will ever say “we are doing nothing”, but it seems that very little is actually being done about WTD by itself.
‘They’ as in the authorities, aint doing anything because they know WTD/POA is just a farce, or a ‘seeing to be doing the right thing on the outside’ type excercise, Because ‘they’ know that the amount of hours we are expected to work are effin ridiculous in this day and age, so lets pretend it aint happening, so another box ticked.
So you put your tacho on POA to kid yourself and everybody else that it is not actual time spent working, so it looks like we are all actually working .what is it?
48 hours?
Aye right.
If I am waiting in a queue or parked up waiting to tip for 2 hours, I don’t care if the guy tells me how long he will be…I aint in a state of limbo or in a period of availability, or anything else…am still WORKING !
I have never used POA. I just dont play their stupid games.
(If they did start enforcing and fining, then I would, I aint totally stupid.)
I reckon that they also know that realistically good brief could win that case if they did decide to take you to court, so that is why nothing is ‘policed’ and nobody has been attempted to be prosecuted…
But that is just my usual suspicious and disbelieving nature and cynicism coming out.
On the other hand I only do a max of 50 hours these days anyway, since I asked to cut back to sensuble hours.
Now and again (when I take leave of my senses ) , I will volunteer to do a max out week if I need extra cash or whatever…
But even when I was on ‘normal’ hours (term used loosely) I never used POA and just signed the infringements if and when I got them.
@franglais Thanks for confirming my thoughts that DVSA not only don’t directly enforce but have no direct policy on it. I’d searched their sanctions policy and could find it, just handy for another set of eyes
obviously some of them aint been showing (and presumably not taking 
) , I will volunteer to do a max out week if I need extra cash or whatever…