Keep It Simple Stupid
the maoster:
Why should I work to minimums Rog? I’m paid by the hour, so taking over the minimum in any situation is hardly gonna get me into trouble is it?
Agreed 
Héraultais:
Keep It Simple Stupid
HOFA
Clunk:
wildfire:
I put this question on another site and some of the answers where quite shocking!!!right guys got a scenario to put to you lot and see what your answers will be?..
A driver has a full 15hr shift his start time is 06.00 and finish at 21.00.
He will not do more than 4.25 minutes driving during the whole shift.
He starts at 6 and works till 11.45 at which point he takes a 15 min break.
He then carries on till 17.00 and takes another 15 min break.
He then carries on till 20.30 taking another 15 min break and then finishes at 21.00.
The question is has he done anything wrong? please no comments about he shouldn’t be doing a 15hr day ect, its just a wtd question, either he has broken the rules or he hasn’t its that easy
The post says 4.25 minutes driving. Not 4.25 hours. Which is it?
fixed it for you !!!
Well you can’t have 3 15’s break, it had to be a 15 & then a half.
Silver_Surfer:
Well you can’t have 3 15’s break, it had to be a 15 & then a half.
You can if the shift only requires RTD breaks and no driving time breaks
ROG:
Silver_Surfer:
Well you can’t have 3 15’s break, it had to be a 15 & then a half.You can if the shift only requires RTD breaks and no driving time breaks
and as I said you cn do a whole 15hr shift with NO breaks at all …
nick2008:
ROG:
Silver_Surfer:
Well you can’t have 3 15’s break, it had to be a 15 & then a half.You can if the shift only requires RTD breaks and no driving time breaks
and as I said you cn do a whole 15hr shift with NO breaks at all …
you used to be able to until the RTD - unless the majority is POA
ROG:
nick2008:
ROG:
Silver_Surfer:
Well you can’t have 3 15’s break, it had to be a 15 & then a half.You can if the shift only requires RTD breaks and no driving time breaks
and as I said you cn do a whole 15hr shift with NO breaks at all …
you used to be able to until the RTD - unless the majority is POA
nick2008:
ROG:
nick2008:
ROG:
Silver_Surfer:
Well you can’t have 3 15’s break, it had to be a 15 & then a half.You can if the shift only requires RTD breaks and no driving time breaks
and as I said you cn do a whole 15hr shift with NO breaks at all …
you used to be able to until the RTD - unless the majority is POA
please nick don’t confuse them anymore lol 
dri-diddly-iver:
Tarrman:
He hasn’t done anything wrong. He hasn’t worked more than 6 hours in any one time and had taken the required 45 minutes break in no less than 15 minute blocks, he’s not required to have 30 minutes between 6-9 hours, he doesn’t need a further 30 minute driving break as he hasn’t gone over 4:30 driving, he’s had or will (I assume) have 9 hours rest at the end, he hasn’t finished on a break.I can’t see anything wrong? Please enlighten me if I’m wrong.
At a guess then, you have read all the responses and come up with this
Well done
Can’t say I have read all the responses, most of them are usually drivers ■■■■■■■■/nitpicking to each other about who’s right and wrong!
Tarrman:
Can’t say I have read all the responses, most of them are usually drivers ■■■■■■■■/nitpicking to each other about who’s right and wrong!
Not come across that on this site re legal type questions
Very interesting!!! I’ll start by saying the scenario seems perfectly legal to me. What struck me during the reading of this thread is the sheer amount of drivers/TNUK posters that simply have:
A) misread the scenario
B) are confusing WTD regs. with EU Drivers’ Hours regs. or
C) have a lack of knowledge/understanding of either or both sets of rules mentioned in option B).
Whilst these rules are not always straightforward, plain & simple they are a fundamental part of MOST LGV driving jobs so I would personally expect better understanding - especially from those who bemoan DCPC - after all, some claim to know all about driving trucks…This is clearly not the case. Sorry if this reads as harsh, but surely improvement is needed…the 15 minute minimum break rule has been covered many times - nothing has changed!!
Suddenly a case for at least one DCPC module that covers Drivers Hours and WTD to be attended by each and everyone is entirely justified - in my opinion!!!
Daz1970:
Very interesting!!! I’ll start by saying the scenario seems perfectly legal to me. What struck me during the reading of this thread is the sheer amount of drivers/TNUK posters that simply have:A) misread the scenario
B) are confusing WTD regs. with EU Drivers’ Hours regs. or
C) have a lack of knowledge/understanding of either or both sets of rules mentioned in option B).Whilst these rules are not always straightforward, plain & simple they are a fundamental part of MOST LGV driving jobs so I would personally expect better understanding - especially from those who bemoan DCPC - after all, some claim to know all about driving trucks…This is clearly not the case. Sorry if this reads as harsh, but surely improvement is needed…the 15 minute minimum break rule has been covered many times - nothing has changed!!
Suddenly a case for at least one DCPC module that covers Drivers Hours and WTD to be attended by each and everyone is entirely justified - in my opinion!!!
The problem can be that much mis-information is given by DCPC trainers so until the dcpc system scrutinises the content of such courses then that cannot be taken as the answer
ROG:
Daz1970:
Very interesting!!! I’ll start by saying the scenario seems perfectly legal to me. What struck me during the reading of this thread is the sheer amount of drivers/TNUK posters that simply have:A) misread the scenario
B) are confusing WTD regs. with EU Drivers’ Hours regs. or
C) have a lack of knowledge/understanding of either or both sets of rules mentioned in option B).Whilst these rules are not always straightforward, plain & simple they are a fundamental part of MOST LGV driving jobs so I would personally expect better understanding - especially from those who bemoan DCPC - after all, some claim to know all about driving trucks…This is clearly not the case. Sorry if this reads as harsh, but surely improvement is needed…the 15 minute minimum break rule has been covered many times - nothing has changed!!
Suddenly a case for at least one DCPC module that covers Drivers Hours and WTD to be attended by each and everyone is entirely justified - in my opinion!!!The problem can be that much mis-information is given by DCPC trainers so until the dcpc system scrutinises the content of such courses then that cannot be taken as the answer
I think the biggest problem is the regs are written for legal bods …
yet again they should be writing them in plain English…
the other prob with the RTD is the wording … it needs to be kept simple …
Agreed ROG that the trainers need to be ‘singing from one hymn book’ - but if & when that happens, surely a compulsory Drivers Hours module should do more good than harm. If some drivers get that moment where they say “Well I never knew that” either out-loud or to themselves then that would be a result and show that some learning has taken place. We all have 35 hours to complete every 5 years, so why not make 7 of those hours include Drivers hours/ WTD?? It is evidently still needed. Of course the quality of the training is variable but there are resources available that could be given to drivers in handout form that could confirm the content of the training.
nick2008:
I think the biggest problem is the regs are written for legal bods …
yet again they should be writing them in plain English…
the other prob with the RTD is the wording … it needs to be kept simple …
The regs are written pretty simple i think Nick. Biggest problem is people who want to ignore them, or interpret them their own way.
Lets start with this simple nugget of a regulation from …
REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
of 15 March 2006
CHAPTER III
LIABILITY OF TRANSPORT UNDERTAKINGS
Article 10
2. A transport undertaking shall organise the work of
drivers referred to in paragraph 1 in such a way that the
drivers are able to comply with Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85
and Chapter II of this Regulation. The transport undertaking
shall properly instruct the driver and shall make regular
checks to ensure that Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85 and
Chapter II of this Regulation are complied with
Now don’t gloss over that quick Nick, think about it. “properley instruct”. When was the last time you where properley instructed as regards your working, rest and break times?
In actual practice almost no one is properley instructed, They are however checked “afterwards” to say what they got wrong. In my experience i have only ever come across one company that does "properley instruct " you, of course there may be more and i just havn’t worked there. That was Royal Mail, they are able to plan out your start time, vehicle checks and fuelling, run times, break times as well. I have never come across anyone who has come close to how good they are at working it out.
So, “properley Instruct” ? Why are we getting questions from drivers looking to micro manage their drivers hours when their employer is 100% responsible for them?
[1]My own feeling is that the driver is being played on, guesses he is and askes here…is this right?
[2]The driver wants to negate rests, breaks as much as he can because he’s on salary or day rate and wants to know best way to do minimum rests/breaks?
[3] He just hasn’t a clue what he’s doing?
Either way if they where properly instructed there wouldn’t be the questions.
ROG:
The problem can be that much mis-information is given by DCPC trainers so until the dcpc system scrutinises the content of such courses then that cannot be taken as the answer
And a lot of your information used to come from a phone call to VOSA, which often resulted in a incorrect answer!!! You failed a DSA drivers exam and have now become an “internet expert” !! And yet you still decry DCPC and JAPUT who unlike you don’t generally just "wing it " ? And of course they are accountable. If you told me black was black and white was white i’d still go check to be sure.
Mike-C:
nick2008:
I think the biggest problem is the regs are written for legal bods …
yet again they should be writing them in plain English…
the other prob with the RTD is the wording … it needs to be kept simple …The regs are written pretty simple i think Nick. Biggest problem is people who want to ignore them, or interpret them their own way.
I have to agree that the EU regulations are written quite clearly especially when you compare them to the domestic regulations as they were before 1986 and still are for PSV drivers.
However, I think the EU could help by providing more guidance notes to clarify how the regulations are expected to be interpreted, I think the EU are falling a bit short in this respect, but that is of course just a personal opinion 
Mike-C:
So, “properley Instruct” ? Why are we getting questions from drivers looking to micro manage their drivers hours when their employer is 1̶0̶0̶%̶ responsible for them?
[1]My own feeling is that the driver is being played on, guesses he is and askes here…is this right?
[2]The driver wants to negate rests, breaks as much as he can because he’s on salary or day rate and wants to know best way to do minimum rests/breaks?
[3] He just hasn’t a clue what he’s doing?
[4] It’s the driver who gets fined when things go wrong.
[5] Because in practice all the employer has to do is show that he gives infringements that explains what the driver has done wrong and he can say he’s instructed the driver.Either way if they where properly instructed there wouldn’t be the questions.
I wouldn’t say the employer is 100% responsible for drivers understanding the regulations, drivers can’t just negate all responsibility for things they know they will need to understand when they enter the industry.
As far as why people ask questions here is concerned, I would say the reasons are mainly 1, and 4 and 5 that I’ve added to your list.
tachograph:
Mike-C:
nick2008:
I think the biggest problem is the regs are written for legal bods …
yet again they should be writing them in plain English…
the other prob with the RTD is the wording … it needs to be kept simple …The regs are written pretty simple i think Nick. Biggest problem is people who want to ignore them, or interpret them their own way.
I have to agree that the EU regulations are written quite clearly especially when you compare them to the domestic regulations as they were before 1986 and still are for PSV drivers.
However, I think the EU could help by providing more guidance notes to clarify how the regulations are expected to be interpreted, I think the EU are falling a bit short in this respect, but that is of course just a personal opinion
Mike-C:
So, “properley Instruct” ? Why are we getting questions from drivers looking to micro manage their drivers hours when their employer is 1̶0̶0̶%̶ responsible for them?
[1]My own feeling is that the driver is being played on, guesses he is and askes here…is this right?
[2]The driver wants to negate rests, breaks as much as he can because he’s on salary or day rate and wants to know best way to do minimum rests/breaks?
[3] He just hasn’t a clue what he’s doing?
[4] It’s the driver who gets fined when things go wrong.
[5] Because in practice all the employer has to do is show that he gives infringements that explains what the driver has done wrong and he can say he’s instructed the driver.Either way if they where properly instructed there wouldn’t be the questions.
I wouldn’t say the employer is 100% responsible for drivers understanding the regulations, drivers can’t just negate all responsibility for things they know they will need to understand when they enter the industry.
As far as why people ask questions here is concerned, I would say the reasons are mainly 1, and 4 and 5 that I’ve added to your list.
Yeah i suppose i agree with what you say. But i’ll maintain the employer is still responsible for the larger part of organising and planning a day instead of just leaving it as a start at and do this that and the other.