How much can the trailer safely lean over?

There’s been a few occasions over the last couple of years, yesterday being one, where your backing in somewhere and to do so the trailers got to go up the kerb, and there’s a little bit of a camber as well. As the trailer wheels go up the kerb 1 of the wheels you can see comes up off the floor and you look at the trailer and it looks like it’s a got a proper tilt on it.

There’s been videos on Facebook and YouTube where they’ve tipped over with what looks to be almost nothing from the video, and I guess it’s hard to answer this without seeing each individual situation.

The only reason I continued yesterday was because it was a wickes yard, it was literally the only way of backing in, and they have artics there doing it all the time. When I looked at it beforehand the camber didn’t look much at all, but as the trailer wheels went up the kerb the tilt just looked a bit scary and when the wheel then came up of the floor I did wonder a bit what the limit was before its going over :smiley:

There is no limit, gravity is the limit.

When you’re at a snail’s pace unless the trailer is ridiculously top heavy the height of kerb you’d need to induce a rollover would be too high to bump it up on to. Different kettle of fish on a roundabout though.

Depends on how it is loaded.
I have run plate steel on flatbeds that you couldnt turn over with a crane.
Saw a Danish truck fall on it side going UP the French side of the Blanc. Loaded with hanging meat, couldnt have been doing more than 20Kph but with such a high center of gravity, over she went.

I seem to remember a French stunt driver who pulled off a controled side wheelie in a truck and trailer having done it for years in cars and rigids, Rémy Julienne.

Gravity along with how its loaded,and speed of travel.

As a condition of the certificate of initial fitness PSV are tilt tested to 28 degrees for a double decker and 34 degrees for a single decker. This is obviously carried out stationary, the vehicle would not be still on its wheels if it was cornering but it is still an alarming angle of tilt.

youtube.com/watch?v=v2_T4WVnnFU

AndieHyde:
Depends on how it is loaded.
I have run plate steel on flatbeds that you couldnt turn over with a crane.

Same here, 30t bulk bags of aggregate (polished stone) on a tilt, theres no way that’ll go over even dragging it around roundabouts at tyre shredding speeds…

I think the OP’s maneuvering description is the perfect storm where auto gearboxes need very careful control, bear with me.

As described you’re getting towards a jack knife situation, the trailer will be on a lean anyway as its effectively become a wheelbarrow or three wheeler pivoting on the now sideways and tilting backwards fifth wheel, at this point any sudden movements such as severe clutch judder or stalling will set up a violent rocking, handle it badly and you could easily set a pendulum going.

You even see this in action happening with tractor units on full lock in tight spaces, sudden jerky moves on full lock makes the cab rock a large amount, can easily end up with the top of the cab hitting any protrusions if inside a building or framework such as under hoppers with surrounding walkways.

Yes i can hear the groans already but this is the area where arsetronic and similar autos really show their weaknesses in operation, there is no way that an automatic (but standard) clutch engagement can be controlled as precisely as a manual gearbox with the same clutch, because you are trying to do it with one pedal, the throttle, and with the best will in the world the programming parameters can’t cater for every single clutch loading like a human can balancing clutch throttle and use of the secondary brake to make small steady controlled movements.

Do not compare this with a torque converter box as found in Terberg and other shunters which offer infinitely variable power application without undue wear and tear to a clutch.

So, as with other circs requiring intricate control, you have to learn your vehicle intimately.
Its surprising how many drivers in these circs don’t use the crawl/maneuvering/tortoise function of their auto box, or keep flicking down the gears until the very lowest gear is found.
Unless its in low, or preferably a set maneuver (if available) function of the box, the vehicle can only assume that because it needs so much throttle/fuel to make it move (because its on a jack knife and trying to push possibly three axles sideways) that its on a hill start fully loaded because it can’t move the vehicle easily…does that make sense by the way :bulb:

Hence the clutch engagement isn’t going to be right for the situation you find yourself in, leading to jerky movements or a series of minor kangaroo type starts, where if you give it the best chance by letting it know it’s maneuvering then it has more chance of giving controlled steady movement.

Learning fine clutch engagement with some autos can take some time, you can just stick your hoof to the floor out on the road and they will all cope, they are after all designed to save the lorry from the worse planks out there (and why they are here to stay), but if you take time to perfect clutch engagement by throttle control out on the road, and use appropriate lowest gear and/or maneuver function then those tight reverses become safe and smoother, and if you move the vehicle smoothly the chances of rocking that precarious tilt are reduced to as near nil as possible.

In summary, a properly loaded artic can lean a lot when maneuvering before a danger situation develops, if you keep your power inputs as smooth as possible it keeps things safe, if you allow violent jerky movements you increase the danger of trouble many fold.

By the way, i’m an advocate of driving autos in manual anyway, and one of the many reasons is so the driver controls power input and gearchanging on roundabouts and junctions where the last thing you need is the vehicle deciding to change gear just at the wrong moment on mini roundabouts, which they do.

It’s impossible to give an exact angle without knowing where the centre of gravity of the trailer is. It’s usually somewhere about 50 cm above the bed of the trailer but can be 1-2 metres or more on a tl.p. heavy decker. The critical point is as the CoG passes over the centre of the trailer axles (axle 2 in a 3 axle configuration). At this point there is neutral longitudinal stability, I.e. it is teetering on the edge. Any further and the trailer will begin to go over, although for a very small amount this may be caught by the trailer contacting the catwalk/mudguards/tyres by the mass of the unit (transmitted through the fifth wheel) bringing the ‘effective CG’ back within the footprint of the trailer wheels if reversing 'good side, or by the torque of the floor acting against the combination if reversing blindside.
Either way, once you’ve passed that point, there will be damage, most likely to the back of the cab/air deflectors/catwalk/mudguards/fuel tank etc. And a whole lot more if the entire lot goes over.

Best avoided :smiley:

cav551:
As a condition of the certificate of initial fitness PSV are tilt tested to 28 degrees for a double decker and 34 degrees for a single decker. This is obviously carried out stationary, the vehicle would not be still on its wheels if it was cornering but it is still an alarming angle of tilt.

youtube.com/watch?v=v2_T4WVnnFU

Do HGVs have to be tilt tested up to a level as well?

Rowley010:

cav551:
As a condition of the certificate of initial fitness PSV are tilt tested to 28 degrees for a double decker and 34 degrees for a single decker. This is obviously carried out stationary, the vehicle would not be still on its wheels if it was cornering but it is still an alarming angle of tilt.

youtube.com/watch?v=v2_T4WVnnFU

Do HGVs have to be tilt tested up to a level as well?

Don’t see how you can unless its something like a petrol tanker designed for a particular load mass so within a couple of cms the centre of gravity isn’t going to alter.

How could you test a curtain sider which is going to carry anything at any height, or a double decker which some half wit might have loaded top heavy, or a skelly which could be carrying any one of the three lengths of box themselves containing almost anything.

The added problem with an artic is that in a straight line the fifth wheel provides decent sideways support, but on a turn not only does the fifth wheel make the trailer lean (back usually) but the front of the trailer is then on a centre pivot point.
Too many variables.

Juddian:

Rowley010:

cav551:
As a condition of the certificate of initial fitness PSV are tilt tested to 28 degrees for a double decker and 34 degrees for a single decker. This is obviously carried out stationary, the vehicle would not be still on its wheels if it was cornering but it is still an alarming angle of tilt.

youtube.com/watch?v=v2_T4WVnnFU

Do HGVs have to be tilt tested up to a level as well?

Don’t see how you can unless its something like a petrol tanker designed for a particular load mass so within a couple of cms the centre of gravity isn’t going to alter.

How could you test a curtain sider which is going to carry anything at any height, or a double decker which some half wit might have loaded top heavy, or a skelly which could be carrying any one of the three lengths of box themselves containing almost anything.

The added problem with an artic is that in a straight line the fifth wheel provides decent sideways support, but on a turn not only does the fifth wheel make the trailer lean (back usually) but the front of the trailer is then on a centre pivot point.
Too many variables.

Like the bus test for a top heavy load? On the basis that it’s unlikely to have a load so high up with nothing lower down then it covers well for “normal” loads. But if there is no legal testing for tilt then fair enough. Just asking the question if there is or there isn’t?

cav551:
As a condition of the certificate of initial fitness PSV are tilt tested to 28 degrees for a double decker and 34 degrees for a single decker. This is obviously carried out stationary, the vehicle would not be still on its wheels if it was cornering but it is still an alarming angle of tilt.

youtube.com/watch?v=v2_T4WVnnFU

I’m sure you used to be able to sit on a bus doing that on the open days they used to hold at Aldenham…

The bags of sand they put upstairs were strapped down. If there were passengers on they wouldn’t be strapped and probably end up on the seat next to them, moving across to the way the bus is leaning. Doesn’t take a genius to work out it will tip a lot quicker in real life.

Juddian:
The added problem with an artic is that in a straight line the fifth wheel provides decent sideways support, but on a turn not only does the fifth wheel make the trailer lean (back usually) but the front of the trailer is then on a centre pivot point.
Too many variables.

^

Anything approaching an L shape between unit and trailer means that there’s effectively less support at the front of the trailer opposite to the side which the steer axle is facing.With what there is also subject to the variables of the fifth wheel pivot now also being in line with the trailer and therefore allowing even more lateral roll to go un checked at the trailer.Which is another advantage of the fixed turntable type drawbar trailer.In addition to a wider spread of load on it applying less leverage at the axle.

So yes reversing against an opposite camber with a large angle between the unit and trailer obviously leaves it more liable to rolling.In a similar way that you wouldn’t tip a tipping artic outfit with the unit at an angle to the trailer IE less resistance to roll. . :bulb:

Simple answer is once the lateral centre of gravity (left to right) is moved outwards past the contact point of the tyres on the surface they’re on.

For a load that was say 4ft high well secured you’d have to have one hell of a lean on for it to go over, certainly more than 30 degrees, more approaching 45. I have occasionally driven Terex and Volvo dump trucks in quarries and I’ve had those with the back end at 45 degrees fully loaded and they’ve not gone over.

Usually the reason trailers go over is because the loads aren’t secured properly so it moves and therefore moves that lateral centre point outwards compared to where it would be had it been secured properly. There was an episode of Highway to Hell that demonstrated this. A load of timber well secured on a flatbed, hadn’t moved even though it ended up on its side. It was nowhere near getting to 45 degrees before it started to right itself thus proving it would have had to have leant over more than 45 degrees before it would end up on its side and in fact it only did because it went over an embankment. On the other hand when they’ve been doing fridge trailers they’ve almost had to pull them all the way before gravity has started to do its job.

Conor:
Simple answer is once the lateral centre of gravity (left to right) is moved outwards past the contact point of the tyres on the surface they’re on.

The problem is that only applies in the case of the unit and trailer being in line.All bets are off when the unit is at an angle because 1 the fifth wheel pivot can no longer transfer the load laterally across the vehicle it will let the front of the trailer roll more and 2 the unit rear axle/s is/are also turned in line longitudinally with the trailer rather than laterally across it.Which creates a similar situation of a three legged chair or Relaint Robin effect at the front of the trailer.Which can apply even at small angles between unit and trailer let alone large ones.This shows clearly how lateral support and with it resistance to roll,at the front of the trailer,decreases,as the turn angle between the unit and trailer increases.

youtube.com/watch?v=kllMekpmy4g

As pointed out by a few here this is a pointless question, it can’t possibly be answered correctly, one guy puts it right, you can have a very heavy load but only 4 ft high and it will be virtually impossible to turn it over, on the other hand load it floor to ceiling with heavy stuff and it will roll quite easily. I pull a baffle free (smooth bore) liquid tanker and I know exactly how it will react on a bend when loaded but I get some load mouth pillock on the CB now and then asking why I take it easy on twisty country roads ? Try driving a 48 foot long tanker with a load of hot liquid at only 90% volume and see how they get on without rolling it.
One thing I have learned since I started driving lorries in 1975 is if you are going into a curve or bend slow before you get into the bend, never touch the brakes when you are in the bend, if you feel it is going too fast the best thing to do is hit the accelerator to pull the vehicle straight, the pulling effect will help to stop the load tipping over.

Carryfast:

Juddian:
The added problem with an artic is that in a straight line the fifth wheel provides decent sideways support, but on a turn not only does the fifth wheel make the trailer lean (back usually) but the front of the trailer is then on a centre pivot point.
Too many variables.

^

Anything approaching an L shape between unit and trailer means that there’s effectively less support at the front of the trailer opposite to the side which the steer axle is facing.With what there is also subject to the variables of the fifth wheel pivot now also being in line with the trailer and therefore allowing even more lateral roll to go un checked at the trailer.Which is another advantage of the fixed turntable type drawbar trailer.In addition to a wider spread of load on it applying less leverage at the axle.

So yes reversing against an opposite camber with a large angle between the unit and trailer obviously leaves it more liable to rolling.In a similar way that you wouldn’t tip a tipping artic outfit with the unit at an angle to the trailer IE less resistance to roll. . :bulb:

There’s a couple of videos on YouTube which demonstrate this perfectly. Tipper trailers parking with the cab at 90 degrees, as soon as the tipper is lifted, the whole thing becomes unstable.

Pat Hasler:
As pointed out by a few here this is a pointless question, it can’t possibly be answered correctly, one guy puts it right, you can have a very heavy load but only 4 ft high and it will be virtually impossible to turn it over, on the other hand load it floor to ceiling with heavy stuff and it will roll quite easily. I pull a baffle free (smooth bore) liquid tanker and I know exactly how it will react on a bend when loaded but I get some load mouth pillock on the CB now and then asking why I take it easy on twisty country roads ? Try driving a 48 foot long tanker with a load of hot liquid at only 90% volume and see how they get on without rolling it.
One thing I have learned since I started driving lorries in 1975 is if you are going into a curve or bend slow before you get into the bend, never touch the brakes when you are in the bend, if you feel it is going too fast the best thing to do is hit the accelerator to pull the vehicle straight, the pulling effect will help to stop the load tipping over.

Used to pull food container tanks with concentrated grape juice in. 24,000l tank and 18,000 litres for 24 tons. No baffles as they make cleaning harder. A very lively load !