Lets put aside current geo polictical red tape barriers and hope of a future where Putin and Trump put away cold war hostilities and become allies again then throw in a huge oil discovery in the area or similar financial insentive to build our trans asia superhighway.
Could we see an introduction of road trains to make economical advantage?
We are at the moment thinking in terms of current euro spec trucks in which one man with one truck using 250 litres to move 24 tonnes 700 kms in 24 hours. If we were to use an Aussie spec quad B and probably double teamed were are potentially moving 100 tonnes 1200kms using 600litres per day (as no one has done this, these figures are open to debate)
Both the Canadians and Aussie are using super Bs with great success in some of the harshest conditions there are. The Ockers are using tripples in some cases so we know the system works and with the right political will and investment, road trains from Berlin to Bejing could be a way to go.
I’ve got a bit of experience with bigger trucks… First… have you ever tried to sleep in a moving truck… I know some people can actually do it, but for most of us anything more than shaking of extreme exhaustion it’s possible…
I like getting about in my B- Double… some times it’s a bit bigger B Quad even… If your running them full time… Quads, it’s a good idea to have a double chassis, cause the weight your pulling behind’ll just rip your truck apart… fairly quick… 50mm pin… you really want to pull 100+ with a 50mm pin… 90 mm pin…
Fuel… at 69 ton on a typical run… bit of flat, not to many hills… Well you have 9 axles of drag + loads of extra air drag… min you want would be 11 hp per ton I average about 1.2 litres per kilometre… I used to be able to convert that to MPG…
We run B- doubles into towns but only on specific routes and they’re well policed… They’re not the kind of things that you want to get into heavy traffic with… they’ve been around here for years and if you think that most car drivers don’t understand trucks and lorries in Europe… you should have a go in B Doubles and larger… I actually had a biker…( Motorcycle ) try and brake check me when I was in a triple… Lucky for me I was only 90 ton at the time and not fully loaded… Even other truck driver… who you think would realise what your up against cut you up… I’ve even been top sided on a roundabout by another B Double…
As I mentioned B-Doubles only run in restricted area… Pocket road trains 2 trailers… triples and B quads are even more restricted in where they can go… yes they can go round corners and roundabouts… but it’s more that other road users don’t have a clue how to safely interact with them…
If I’m pulling quads or triples I would be hard pushed to get any more then 900k’s a shift but I’d burn about 1200 litres of truck beer… and I don’t think I’d drive it through a tunnel between Russia and Alaska…or Berlin to Bejing… most of which I have actually driven… well almost… Corgos at least…
To get a triple up a hill of any note you have to split it down into manageable lumps… so to get it across the M62 would take you most of the night and you would have to split and connect it about 3 times… also you would have to find somewhere to park about 200 trailer at each end, and I can guarantee that at least once a night someone would park in front of one of the trailers you are trying to hitch up to…
I can imagine a financial incentive already, for some sort of trans-Siberian motorway. At the moment, the only methods to get cheap tat from China to Europe are sea and air, IE very cheap and very expensive. For those goods which are not urgent enough for air, road would make sense. No messing about with Australian lorries needed- either Scandinavian 76-tonners, or two Euro triaxles connected with a dolly, would do.
Against that, airfreight for Chinese stuff is actually as cheap as chips. The Royal Mail charges about £1.50 to send what it calls a “small package”. That would be an A5-size padded envelope with something in it. I have bought Chinese stuff off ebay that size, for that price in total, and it arrives in an airmail envelope. Conclusion- the Chinese government subsidises air transport for exports.
Against that 2- the investment in the road would need paying back, and Europe’s cheap goods will not come from China forever. There is a whole world of eager poor people to exploit.
Jelliot:
The thing is …that’s what you’re up against …dumb ■■■ red tape … it doesn’t matter how dumb it is there’s usually no way round it… They’ve put measures in for their own protection, if you get round one bit, there’ll be another one round the corner that’s just as interesting…and now that they have a guy in charge that ware’s a dead cat on his head there’s no telling how more dumb ■■■ it’s going to get…
Skipvitesse had a blue Magnum to pull his car transporter…there was also a Dutch guy that took a Blue Scania and tri axle trailer converted into a motor home. Ferdy had a thread on it… I think he went over for a week or two for a trundle about… I don’t know what kind of transit tax the Americans would charge for a " rest of the world " truck to enjoy their roads… but I recon it would be fairly prohibitive for a normal sort of bloke…
Jeff…
To be fair any large scale shift from container or unaccompanied ro ro trailer traffic to accompanied TIR ro ro operations between UK/US probably would have a severe effect on US jobs in the domestic transport industry.Simply because there’s more incentive,in the form of miles in the job,for us than there is for them.IE they’d have a lot more to lose while we’d have everything to gain. However subject to strict permit quotas I’d guess that there’s plenty of room there to open up that sector of the transport market regarding certain time/service sensitive freight movements.In which case accompanied ro ro under TIR via Halifax seems to be the way to go and miles better than driving across Russia to Alaska.As for Trump he’s probably the best US president since Eisenhower.
Lets put aside current geo polictical red tape barriers and hope of a future where Putin and Trump put away cold war hostilities and become allies again then throw in a huge oil discovery in the area or similar financial insentive to build our trans asia superhighway.
Could we see an introduction of road trains to make economical advantage?
We are at the moment thinking in terms of current euro spec trucks in which one man with one truck using 250 litres to move 24 tonnes 700 kms in 24 hours. If we were to use an Aussie spec quad B and probably double teamed were are potentially moving 100 tonnes 1200kms using 600litres per day (as no one has done this, these figures are open to debate)
Both the Canadians and Aussie are using super Bs with great success in some of the harshest conditions there are. The Ockers are using tripples in some cases so we know the system works and with the right political will and investment, road trains from Berlin to Bejing could be a way to go.
I’ve often said that road trains can be a game changer in terms of making long distances more viable and would possibly work in the Asia/China example.
But no chance in the case of Europe/US via Alsaka.It’s just too far to go.To get what is otherwise, at most,more or less an around 5,000-6,000 mile,often less,combined sea/road journey done,to expect the customer to pay for in terms of fuel,maintenance and driver wages.Even if some of the cost is reduced by using a roadtrain across Russia for example.Which still leaves the problem of all the extra time added to cover the unnecessary distance in that case.Although admittedly that time factor wouldn’t be dependent on shipping arrival/departure frequency.
As I said before, both sides of the Bering Strait are beyond the back of beyond, you have to travel 1000s of miles to be anywhere of any significance. So even in the event of a large oil discovery, or similar, the raw material would be of no use locally, which is one of the reasons nobody is looking for it up there right now.
The reason oil is so cheap is because of the minimal costs associated with getting it from the ground and turning it into finished product. That’s why it runs in pipelines or trains to large ships.
Sticking it in lorries would increase the costs beyond a sustainable level and that’s just the cost of the transport, you have to add infrastructure costs to that too and to build a new road in that kind of terrain that could survive thousands of lorries running over it 24/7/365 would run into millions of dollars per mile of roadway, then there’s a tunnel that needs boring under the sea, that would cost billions.
Until we run out of oil everywhere else, it will never happen and by that time it will be cheaper and more practical to find an alternative energy source.
And let’s face it, even if this was to happen and they did build a road and we could load in Boise, Idaho for delivery in Moscow, it would be a modern highway, boring as hell, nothing like running out to Kazakhstan in the 90s or the early days of the M/E.
newmercman:
And let’s face it, even if this was to happen and they did build a road and we could load in Boise, Idaho for delivery in Moscow, it would be a modern highway, boring as hell, nothing like running out to Kazakhstan in the 90s or the early days of the M/E.
Not to mention the weather conditions and for most of the year and Russian food.
As opposed to collecting few bulk drops of time/service sensitive European exports for the US.Then a long break while the boat takes the wagon over to Halifax.Then running out of Halifax to LA via the Rockies and Las Vegas for example.Then back to Halifax with a similar return load of US exports bound for Europe.Then a week or so at home before the boat docks here then delivering it all,then do it all again.With the exception of needing to go anywhere along I 95 between Boston and Washington that must be better than running through the Asian deserts eating dodgy food for days.Let alone the boredom of UK work.
Even in Europe, a super B could be done with the right tractor as the motorways of France, Spain and Italy are long and straight enough. Not sure how you would go over the Blanc though. I seem to remember Denby Transport set up a road train as a proof of concept for UK/European work and most likely got shot out of the water with a barrage of red tape. There are no wrong answers here, success is where opportunity and preparation meet, where some only see problems, other see solutions.
Now, if only we can convince Vlad to build it straight and flat enough…
Oh, and Jeff, Ockers is a Kiwi colloquialism for an Australian. I’m sure they have plenty the other side of the ditch… Mostly involving being really friendly to sheep!!!
You have to learn to walk before you can run. A standard all-singing all-dancing bullet-proof long-haul unit and semi-trailer is as much as you need to handle journeys that push through the final frontiers mentioned on here. Even that would need to be thought through with today’s kit. Low-tech units that can be worked on like a Meccano set may well increase the survivability of the driver, as long he could wield a spanner - such artic units no longer come off the shelf, however. Long before any kind of super-highway was established, you’d need to be sending pioneers down the dusty tracks: it would be an organic process. Eventually, as Newmercman quite rightly asserts, you’d end up with thousands of miles of modern mindless roads populated with modern mindless trucks. I think the days of the erstwhile trapper-■■■-drivers in the Davy Crockett tradition are over. If they’re not, let me know 'cos I might just be tempted out of retirement to do a recce with a proper low-tech lorry…Robert
> robert1952: > You have to learn to walk before you can run. A standard all-singing all-dancing bullet-proof long-haul unit and semi-trailer is as much as you need to handle journeys that push through the final frontiers mentioned on here. Even that would need to be thought through with today’s kit. Low-tech units that can be worked on like a Meccano set may well increase the survivability of the driver, as long he could wield a spanner - such artic units no longer come off the shelf, however. Long before any kind of super-highway was established, you’d need to be sending pioneers down the dusty tracks: it would be an organic process. Eventually, as Newmercman quite rightly asserts, you’d end up with thousands of miles of modern mindless roads populated with modern mindless trucks. I think the days of the erstwhile trapper-■■■-drivers in the Davy Crockett tradition are over. If they’re not, let me know 'cos I might just be tempted out of retirement to do a recce with a proper low-tech lorry…Robert
AndieHyde:
Even in Europe, a super B could be done with the right tractor as the motorways of France, Spain and Italy are long and straight enough. Not sure how you would go over the Blanc though. I seem to remember Denby Transport set up a road train as a proof of concept for UK/European work and most likely got shot out of the water with a barrage of red tape.
There seems to be broad agreement on both sides of the Pacific and the Atlantic that the rigid pulling a decent trailer is the best way of hauling the most freight with the least aggro regards available road space at least. .
AndieHyde:
Even in Europe, a super B could be done with the right tractor as the motorways of France, Spain and Italy are long and straight enough. Not sure how you would go over the Blanc though. I seem to remember Denby Transport set up a road train as a proof of concept for UK/European work and most likely got shot out of the water with a barrage of red tape.
There seems to be broad agreement on both sides of the Pacific and the Atlantic that the rigid pulling a decent trailer is the best way of hauling the most freight with the least aggro regards available road space at least. .
Yes. Very popular configuation over here but shines a light on the shortfall of this little countrys infrastructure as there only certain routes these guys can use to take advantage of 8 axles. A lot of bridges and culverts are only rated to 50 tonnes. You will notice the fluro H on the front of the Volvo displays a concession made by Land Transport Authority that allows an outfit, over pre approved roads, to run at full design weight in the case of the FL bread truck some 64 tonnes.
I see them all around and they seem to manage just fine as they are easily broken in two to get both doors on the bank. I have had a play in one, bulkers hauling fertilizer. Seemed very smooth and the 164 580 made short work of any one of our massive hills.
There are a couple of container truck like the DAF with a 20" on the tractor and a 40" on the trailer but nearly all of the deep water ports have a rail head so if its going a distance inland it goes on the train for the swing lift guys to take care of local delivery and that is the prefered choice for any international movement. There has been too much investment on intermodal infastructure worldwide to make door to door trucking movements economicaly competative now or anytime soon.
If we do find the need for low tech pioneers to reignite the long haul market,
Please put my name down whilst your there, mate. Thanks.
AndieHyde:
There has been too much investment on intermodal infastructure worldwide to make door to door trucking movements economicaly competative now or anytime soon.
If we do find the need for low tech pioneers to reignite the long haul market,
Please put my name down whilst your there, mate. Thanks.
The sad thing is that our own industry seems to be all too keen to help them put the long haul international road transport option out of the frame.While it’s my guess that if there is any ‘driver shortage’ it’s the loss/lack of potential opportunity,to drive an interesting challenging outfit,over equally interesting long haul routes,which is one of the main reasons for it.IE might as well drive a bus or taxi around the local area as a truck.
So kids, you can pay a fortune for a license to drive a lorry, once you have that license you’ll have to go on an agency for a couple of years in order to gain experience.
Once you have that experience you can then drive a lorry for a company on long distance intercontinental journeys, you won’t earn any more, possibly even less than on the agency and you will be away for a few weeks, maybe longer. You will have to deal with harsh law enforcement on the continent and learn and abide by many different laws or you will be fined am extortionate amount, which will come out of your pocket.
As well as that you will have to put up with a complete lack of facilities, no Starbucks, no McDs, no WiFi, no Kiss FM, no Sky TV, no social life at all really. Getting a wash will be difficult at times and you will have to share a toilet seat with many people, some of whom have a complete disregard for cleanliness and a very bad aim.
Or, you can get a 9-5 gig, earn more money, meet a nice girl, settle down, have kids, watch them grow up, have a bath/shower and private toilet a few feet away and have a social life.
newmercman:
So kids, you can pay a fortune for a license to drive a lorry, once you have that license you’ll have to go on an agency for a couple of years in order to gain experience.
Once you have that experience you can then drive a lorry for a company on long distance intercontinental journeys, you won’t earn any more, possibly even less than on the agency and you will be away for a few weeks, maybe longer. You will have to deal with harsh law enforcement on the continent and learn and abide by many different laws or you will be fined am extortionate amount, which will come out of your pocket.
As well as that you will have to put up with a complete lack of facilities, no Starbucks, no McDs, no WiFi, no Kiss FM, no Sky TV, no social life at all really. Getting a wash will be difficult at times and you will have to share a toilet seat with many people, some of whom have a complete disregard for cleanliness and a very bad aim.
Or, you can get a 9-5 gig, earn more money, meet a nice girl, settle down, have kids, watch them grow up, have a bath/shower and private toilet a few feet away and have a social life.
thers already a site about this… i have names of chaps who took copper cable to the border at Pakistan. the cable was urgent but can’t be flown
as the energy in the copper affects the radar on the planes so Thor from stoke drove down with it, Comart also from stoke have driven to the
border. Davis from Cheltenham was taking mars bars to China in the 80,s… you need to look for the other post…
John
newmercman:
So kids, you can pay a fortune for a license to drive a lorry, once you have that license you’ll have to go on an agency for a couple of years in order to gain experience.
Once you have that experience you can then drive a lorry for a company on long distance intercontinental journeys, you won’t earn any more, possibly even less than on the agency and you will be away for a few weeks, maybe longer. You will have to deal with harsh law enforcement on the continent and learn and abide by many different laws or you will be fined am extortionate amount, which will come out of your pocket.
As well as that you will have to put up with a complete lack of facilities, no Starbucks, no McDs, no WiFi, no Kiss FM, no Sky TV, no social life at all really. Getting a wash will be difficult at times and you will have to share a toilet seat with many people, some of whom have a complete disregard for cleanliness and a very bad aim.
Or, you can get a 9-5 gig, earn more money, meet a nice girl, settle down, have kids, watch them grow up, have a bath/shower and private toilet a few feet away and have a social life.
Can’t see why there’s a driver shortage can you…
Been having a bad day NNM ■■? I’d like to get into this but I’m of to work in 6 hours… and I’ve already done 78 hours this week and it’s only Friday… But I’ll be back !!!
newmercman:
So kids, you can pay a fortune for a license to drive a lorry, once you have that license you’ll have to go on an agency for a couple of years in order to gain experience.
Once you have that experience you can then drive a lorry for a company on long distance intercontinental journeys, you won’t earn any more, possibly even less than on the agency and you will be away for a few weeks, maybe longer. You will have to deal with harsh law enforcement on the continent and learn and abide by many different laws or you will be fined am extortionate amount, which will come out of your pocket.
As well as that you will have to put up with a complete lack of facilities, no Starbucks, no McDs, no WiFi, no Kiss FM, no Sky TV, no social life at all really. Getting a wash will be difficult at times and you will have to share a toilet seat with many people, some of whom have a complete disregard for cleanliness and a very bad aim.
Or, you can get a 9-5 gig, earn more money, meet a nice girl, settle down, have kids, watch them grow up, have a bath/shower and private toilet a few feet away and have a social life.
Can’t see why there’s a driver shortage can you…
Been having a bad day NNM ■■? I’d like to get into this but I’m of to work in 6 hours… and I’ve already done 78 hours this week and it’s only Friday… But I’ll be back !!!
However subject to strict permit quotas I’d guess that there’s plenty of room there to open up that sector of the transport market regarding certain time/service sensitive freight movements.In which case accompanied ro ro under TIR via Halifax seems to be the way to go and miles better than driving across Russia to Alaska.As for Trump he’s probably the best US president since Eisenhower. 
