Something has been bugging me lately.
I received an infringement for going 1 minute over a 15 hour day. That’s my bad and I accept it readily. However it had a knock on effect that gave me a double infringement the next day (or the same day whichever way you look at it).
So I worked 15 hours 1 minute, took a 9 hour rest (which I now know you can’t), then done a 13 hour day but it added a portion of the second days drive time to the first’s which took me over the 10 hour drive limit.
What I want to know is when should I have started my next shift to avoid this and what tacho rules am I not understanding?
Should I have started my next at 6am because Tachomaster seems to suggest this.
I tried talking about it in the office but didn’t really get any clear answers so I just signed the infringement and left, vowing to myself not to leave it so tight on time in the future.
I think you just cut it too fine starting at 9 hours to the minute after finishing the night before, so 03.24 would have been ok. Maybe it records that you worked to the end of 18:23 and start at the beginning of 03:23 so that is a minute short of nine hours. Not sure if that’s the law or just tachomaster interpretation.
Because you didn’t have 9 hrs off tachomaster has added your 2 days together and says you drove for 15 hrs in one sitting with the infringement first being flagged as soon as you stop driving after exceeding the 10 hours drive time.
Did you have a reduced daily rest period available for the 17th ?
It’s not very clear but the way I’m reading it you never had a reduced daily rest period available so should have had 11 hours rest not 9 hours.
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Once you incurred that 15 Hr infringement, everything else was tweak too close to the limits.
Looking forwards, rather than wondering how you could have re-done the 2nd day, would be to look at how day one could have been done, which will avoid the follow on problems.
tachograph:
Did you have a reduced daily rest period available for the 17th ?It’s not very clear but the way I’m reading it you never had a reduced daily rest period available so should have had 11 hours rest not 9 hours.
I did have a reduced daily available but I think you’re right. I should’ve had an 11 hour break. Tachomaster even says so, no reduced rest available after going over 15 hours.
I just don’t understand why it added my first bit of driving up to 05:59 specifically onto the 15 hour day. Why not the entire days driving if I never had a rest? I didn’t take a break at 05:59, I was still driving for another 45 mins.
15 hours 1 min duty leaves you 8 hours 59 mins for rest in that 24 hour period. So it was impossible to have a reduced rest. That is why you got the infringements and why it added your driving times together. You simply cannot go over 13 or 15 hours in a 24 hour period and still have a daily rest of 9 or more hours.
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Jaffman:
I should’ve had an 11 hour break. Tachomaster even says so, no reduced rest available after going over 15 hours.
11 hours off or not you would still have got the infringements.
Think of it as a 24 hour period, 24 hours minus 15 hours 1 min equals 8 hours 59 mins left for your daily rest. So it makes no difference if you had a reduced rest available or had taken a full daily rest, your rest period started 1 minute too late it’s as simple as that. So it won’t count as a daily rest as it is too short.
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simcor:
Jaffman:
I should’ve had an 11 hour break. Tachomaster even says so, no reduced rest available after going over 15 hours.11 hours off or not you would still have got the infringements.
Think of it as a 24 hour period, 24 hours minus 15 hours 1 min equals 8 hours 59 mins left for your daily rest. So it makes no difference if you had a reduced rest available or had taken a full daily rest, your rest period started 1 minute too late it’s as simple as that. So it won’t count as a daily rest as it is too short.
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If he had 11 hours and 1 min off he would not have had the 2nd infringement of driving time exceeding 10 hrs.
stu675:
simcor:
Jaffman:
I should’ve had an 11 hour break. Tachomaster even says so, no reduced rest available after going over 15 hours.11 hours off or not you would still have got the infringements.
Think of it as a 24 hour period, 24 hours minus 15 hours 1 min equals 8 hours 59 mins left for your daily rest. So it makes no difference if you had a reduced rest available or had taken a full daily rest, your rest period started 1 minute too late it’s as simple as that. So it won’t count as a daily rest as it is too short.
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If he had 11 hours and 1 min off he would not have had the 2nd infringement of driving time exceeding 10 hrs.
For a valid rest period to count as a rest period it has to fit into the 24 hour day from the time you start your shift. Once you go over 13 or 15 hours by even just one minute that daily rest is not a valid daily rest. Having 1 minute extra rest on either 9 or 11 hours off makes no difference once you have gone past your 13 or 15 hours.
He got that infringemnt because he could not fit a 9 hour reduced break or even a full daily rest of 11 hours into that 24 hour period. Therefore his break does not count as a break, therefore the drive time from the day before after his last valid drive break, this got added onto the second days drive time as no valid break was recorded.
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simcor:
stu675:
simcor:
Jaffman:
I should’ve had an 11 hour break. Tachomaster even says so, no reduced rest available after going over 15 hours.11 hours off or not you would still have got the infringements.
Think of it as a 24 hour period, 24 hours minus 15 hours 1 min equals 8 hours 59 mins left for your daily rest. So it makes no difference if you had a reduced rest available or had taken a full daily rest, your rest period started 1 minute too late it’s as simple as that. So it won’t count as a daily rest as it is too short.
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If he had 11 hours and 1 min off he would not have had the 2nd infringement of driving time exceeding 10 hrs.
For a valid rest period to count as a rest period it has to fit into the 24 hour day from the time you start your shift. Once you go over 13 or 15 hours by even just one minute that daily rest is not a valid daily rest. Having 1 minute extra rest on either 9 or 11 hours off makes no difference once you have gone past your 13 or 15 hours.
He got that infringemnt because he could not fit a 9 hour reduced break or even a full daily rest of 11 hours into that 24 hour period. Therefore his break does not count as a break, therefore the drive time from the day before after his last valid drive break, this got added onto the second days drive time as no valid break was recorded.
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So nothing less than 24 hrs off would stop the 2nd day’s driving from being added to the first?
stu675:
So nothing less than 24 hrs off would stop the 2nd day’s driving from being added to the first?
Possibly 9 or 11 hours off in the new 24 hour period may cover it, or alternatively a full 24 off. There isn’t anything covering the scenario in the rules because the general idea is not to go over 13 or 15 hours in the first place.
Edit: I thought the above logically, but it may not be correct, as 9 or 11 off may not be satisfactory depending on how severe the original infringement was. There probably is an answer, but I don’t have it and it isn’t published anywhere where I have looked.
I think the driving infringement has been incurred following a period of driving at 05:59 on the Saturday. For whatever reason the system isn’t penalising further after this point.
stu675:
So nothing less than 24 hrs off would stop the 2nd day’s driving from being added to the first?
It does look like this is the way Tachomaster are interpreting the regulations 
The regulations say that a daily rest period is the daily period during which a driver may freely dispose of his time and covers a regular daily rest period and a reduced daily rest period, the regulations also say that in the period of 24 hours from the end of the last daily rest period a driver must have taken a new daily rest period.
So a qualifying daily rest period is one that is completed within the 24 hour period, but a rest period of 9/11 hours is still a daily rest period but will not count unless it falls within the 24 hour period.
This is relevant because the regulations also state that the daily driving time is the accumulated driving time between two daily rest periods or a daily rest period and a weekly rest period, the regulations do NOT say they have to be qualifying daily rest periods.
I would interpret that as meaning that the daily driving time is reset once a daily rest period has been taken regardless of whether or not it was a qualifying daily rest period, however it seems that Tachomaster disagree and interpret the regulations as saying that the daily driving time is the accumulated driving time between qualifying daily rest periods.
For the daily rest periods the EU guide notes state that where a daily rest period of 9/11 hours ends outside of the 24 hour period a new 24 hour period starts when a rest period of 9/11 hours has been taken, this would be inline with the idea that the daily driving time should also start after a daily rest period has been taken even if it’s not a qualifying daily rest period.
tachograph:
stu675:
So nothing less than 24 hrs off would stop the 2nd day’s driving from being added to the first?It does look like this is the way Tachomaster are interpreting the regulations
The regulations say that a daily rest period is the daily period during which a driver may freely dispose of his time and covers a regular daily rest period and a reduced daily rest period, the regulations also say that in the period of 24 hours from the end of the last daily rest period a driver must have taken a new daily rest period.
So a qualifying daily rest period is one that is completed within the 24 hour period, but a rest period of 9/11 hours is still a daily rest period but will not count unless it falls within the 24 hour period.This is relevant because the regulations also state that the daily driving time is the accumulated driving time between two daily rest periods or a daily rest period and a weekly rest period, the regulations do NOT say they have to be qualifying daily rest periods.
I would interpret that as meaning that the daily driving time is reset once a daily rest period has been taken regardless of whether or not it was a qualifying daily rest period, however it seems that Tachomaster disagree and interpret the regulations as saying that the daily driving time is the accumulated driving time between qualifying daily rest periods.
For the daily rest periods the EU guide notes state that where a daily rest period of 9/11 hours ends outside of the 24 hour period a new 24 hour period starts when a rest period of 9/11 hours has been taken, this would be inline with the idea that the daily driving time should also start after a daily rest period has been taken even if it’s not a qualifying daily rest period.
That is more or less my understanding pretty much as well. A new daily rest period of either 9 or 11 hours whichever is available would have been fine on tachomaster. The op could not start work again until he has had a valid rest period.
But yes starting a new weekly rest would be the only 100% way of being completely infringement free as I understand it.
The company won’t care that much you have gone over your 13 or 15 hours they will just throw infringements at you. They will be seen to have done their bit. The driver is the one who will get shafted, simple as that.
Why drivers ignore basic hours rules and treat them with so little regard when it is their lovely hood and licence it baffles me.
Simple answer is never ever go over your 13 or 15 hours always finish under it. And don’t eject your card at nigh on 13 or 15 hours and then drive round the yard and fuel up etc.
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A daily rest period even if outside the 24 hour window would not have resulted in the drive times being added together for the 2 days.
However the infringement for starting your daily rest late would still be there. Again as I understand it.
The OP by the looks of it has done exactly the same thing the following day by working 13 hours and 2 mins so again likely to have even more infringements for the next day as well.
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tachograph:
Did you have a reduced daily rest period available for the 17th ?It’s not very clear but the way I’m reading it you never had a reduced daily rest period available so should have had 11 hours rest not 9 hours.
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Look at pic 4, tachograph.
Tachomaster states simply, daily rest period should have started at 18:22 and insufficient daily rest.
The reason it says no reduced rest available is because it’s a computer program and uses algorithms or false or true statements.
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Having thought about it, effectively I don’t think there is a definitive answer that can be given (at least by forum members) as to what resets the driving. In this case the driver was only short of 1 minute of rest, but what if the driver had continued on for nearly 24 hours, would 9 or 11 off in the new 24 hour period be satisfactory then? It may well depend on how severe the original infringement was. These are questions probably only the DVSA or someone with a detailed manual could answer.
The driver’s days do seem to be quite heavy on the mileage and also other work, which is probably the root of the issue to be honest.
The fact that the o/p is wondering when to start when already having infringed makes me think the o/p thinks it might happen again, which is not a good sign.
Having done a 15 hour, it also worries me that the o/p was starting again at the first available moment at 03:23.
Noremac:
The fact that the o/p is wondering when to start when already having infringed makes me think the o/p thinks it might happen again, which is not a good sign.Having done a 15 hour, it also worries me that the o/p was starting again at the first available moment at 03:23.
I guess this could be a good lesson for other newbies. Watch out for yourself because some companies that accept you readily will take the mick. So long as they’re covered, they are are quite happy for you to put your neck on the line
I can turn round and say no but I’m still figuring out my timings and will get things wrong when I hit traffic. They don’t care that they’ve handed me a 15 hour run to do.
From now on I’m going to try and leave an extra hour to get back to base and after Christmas try to find another job with that 1 years experience under my belt.
Here’s this week’s shifts. I took Monday off.
I’d keep an eye out for jobs that only require 6 months experience, or maybe even 3?