harsh braking

cooper1203 · 13 November 2019 09:29

good morning all
I am in the process of getting my class c. and currently work at a site in the warehouse as a picker. I was reading the drivers notice board as I hope to get a job as a driver there and saw a sign about harsh braking. it said if you lost 5mph over 3 consecutive seconds that was counted as harsh breaking.
if it happened once in a 1 hour period that was 1 point if it was once in a 2 hour period that was 0.5 point.

after x number of points you were cast into the fiery pit. I tried this on the way home as the roads are quiet when I leave work. and it seemed almost impossible to avoid breaching this rule. The only place I managed to slow down at a slower rate was on a fairly steep down hill slope.

Am I not understanding something here or is this standard practice and I have my work cut out for me.
many thanks
Coop

bald_bloke · 13 November 2019 13:32

I believe your boss can set the parameters to what he/she fancies but I could be wrong but the example you give does appear harsh. Of course not all companies bother with it I know ours don’t go in for it.

cooper1203 · 13 November 2019 16:14

thanks for the response my lessons start on Monday so fingers crossed just looks like I might have my work cut out for me
coop

toonsy · 13 November 2019 16:24

Yeah mine dont bother with stuff either. Get the job done is the motto.

paul_pstt · 13 November 2019 18:31

I am very old fashioned and dislike the use of brakes any more than absolutely necessary. The secret lies in forward observation and planning. If, as soon as you see something ahead of you that MAY cause you to reduce speed, check mirrors and come right off the gas pedal. (btw, obviously this doesn’t apply when climbing a steep incline). The vehicle will slow down, to varying degrees depending on the actual vehicle, any incline, weights etc, but it will almost certainly slow down. Watch the hazard and apply the brakes very gently over a long period if you sense you will need to reduce speed further.

There are three huge benefits to this style of driving:

Less likely to have to actually stop
As a result of (1) the overall journey time is reduced
Substantially easier on the driver

It is a useful exercise to find a flat, quiet bit of road and reach 30 mph and take your foot off the gas. Take note of just how far the truck will roll. It’s a real education.

Another tip: if you, at any point, take your foot off the gas pedal and immediately go to the brake, ask yourself what went wrong. Cos something did!

Give it a go.

(btw, it also works in my car)

Pete

rog · 13 November 2019 20:27

Peter has just described the technique we use for the advanced driving

Just shows how close advanced driving and LGV driving is

peggydeckboy · 13 November 2019 20:52

ROG/,PETER, I try to read what you men write although i do not need it ,I am still learning, i appreciate lots of men who read all your comments are either learners or want to come in to the industry and as an observer, you do a fine job.

Is changing down gears to slow the truck down now out of fashion? if driving in mountain areas surely students should be taught the power of using gears to save brakes.

I was a driver who used brakes the lest possible time once I got the feel of going down the first bit of Italian side of Montblanc in the right gear you kept off your brakes as you never knew when you would need them PDQ .then the old dutch pig transports would flash past like as if you were standing still [did they have retarders ?]pdb

rog · 14 November 2019 06:19

Changing down gears is not needed and causes more fuel consumption

brakes for slow and gears for go - is a phrase often used in driver training

Some traffic police trainers set a challenge for their drivers - to see how long they can go without using the brakes or gears to slow down = that means they can only ease off the gas which requires very good observation, anticipation and planning … try it coz its fun

The other thing they challenge them to do is to keep moving and not come to a complete stop - that one I find fairly easy

wheel_nut · 14 November 2019 13:17

In a similar vein, the California Superbike School use a method to keep you off the brakes and to teach bike control.

They start you off with one gear, no brakes, you can probably reach 60mph in 3rd gear on a little bike, the instructors follow you round or lead you round with observers watching from the trackside, try it, its very rewarding, eventually they will let you have full control, using all gears, no brakes, that’s fun!

Remember Speedway and Grasstrack bikes are not allowed brakes.

roymondo · 14 November 2019 15:08

cooper1203:
good morning all
I am in the process of getting my class c. and currently work at a site in the warehouse as a picker. I was reading the drivers notice board as I hope to get a job as a driver there and saw a sign about harsh braking. it said if you lost 5mph over 3 consecutive seconds that was counted as harsh breaking.
if it happened once in a 1 hour period that was 1 point if it was once in a 2 hour period that was 0.5 point.

after x number of points you were cast into the fiery pit. I tried this on the way home as the roads are quiet when I leave work. and it seemed almost impossible to avoid breaching this rule. The only place I managed to slow down at a slower rate was on a fairly steep down hill slope.

Am I not understanding something here or is this standard practice and I have my work cut out for me.
many thanks
Coop

I think you may have misunderstood what they wrote (or they didn’t write what they mean). I think they meant to say that if you lost 5mph per second for three consecutive seconds it would count as “harsh braking”. In other words, if you were driving at 50mph and then three seconds later you were doing less than 35mph, that would count as “harsh braking”.

cooper1203 · 14 November 2019 15:59

doesn’t one have to change down to Engauge the exhaust brake or get the revs into the blue band? forgive me if its a silly question as I haven’t started my lessons yet

roymondo · 14 November 2019 16:16

No and no - the exhaust brake can be activated in any gear. Its effect is however increased at higher revs - hence why most drivers (and automatic transmissions) change down when using it.

I really wouldn’t worry about it - using it is not normally a requirement for your test.

jellan · 14 November 2019 23:50

Roymondo:
No and no - the exhaust brake can be activated in any gear. Its effect is however increased at higher revs - hence why most drivers (and automatic transmissions) change down when using it.

I really wouldn’t worry about it - using it is not normally a requirement for your test.

I’d add that they can mark you down for using it incorrectly, but not for completely ignoring it. Don’t use it for the test. Same with air suspension buttons, leave them alone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

cooper1203 · 15 November 2019 10:22

thanks for the replies. I guess I am getting a little stressed about my up coming lessons. in the last fortnight I had a chance to go out as a van boy for a couple of hours. As it happened it was the guy that does the driving assessment for new drivers that took me out. I thought I was a reasonable driver but boy was there a difference. even the things I thought I was really good at compared to other drivers made me feel like my efforts were akin to a toddler driving a car for the first time. Then to see this notice about harsh braking just kinda knocked me a little more.

I realise that there is a difference between an experienced driver and one that has just passed his/her test. I also realise that the way the theory test suggests you should drive may differ from practical real world driving

I guess we will have to see what next week brings
coop

franglais · 15 November 2019 11:09

Congratulations!
Honest. You aren’t someone who is convinced their driving is perfect already!
Good instructors need someone to listen to get the job done. You’ll be OK.

paul_pstt · 15 November 2019 13:12

Same with air suspension buttons, leave them alone.

Correct with CAT C but suspension should be used when coupling/uncoupling on CE (artic). It’s possible to pass a test without using it. But it’s amateur and may well cost on a pre-employment assessment. So we always include the correct use of suspension during that exercise. Better for test and vital for real world.

Pete

muckles · 16 November 2019 17:31

ROG:
Changing down gears is not needed and causes more fuel consumption

As far as I’m aware with modern trucks, no fuel is used when you foot is off the pedal whilst moving in gear, so it doesn’t matter about changing down.
On a modern automatic, depending on the position you select on the retarder/exhaust brake it will drop down gears to increase the effectiveness.
When you get a truck manufacturer trainer they encourage you to use the retarder instead of the service brakes and teach you how to select lower gears whilst doing so to increase the effectiveness and not just for downhill sections, but for all situations where you need to slow down, roundabout, junctions, etc, then if needed a bit of braking at the end, this technique will often mean an automatic will change down earlier than if you just use the service brakes.

It’s a bit corny, but does describe how the manufacturer has designed a proper retarder to be used, have a Voith retarder on one of the trucks I drive, compared to the standard exhaust brake on the other truck, it quite amazing how much power and control it give you.

The only thing I would say is you need to be aware of its potential to lock the drive axle it in slippery conditions and use it with care.

ROG:
brakes for slow and gears for go - is a phrase often used in driver training

I bloody hope that has caveats in HGV training, 44 tonnes down a long descent is not like a 1.5 tonne car, that a lot of energy to control and just using brakes will soon produce a great deal of heat, possible loss of brake efficiency and risk of fire or tyre blow out.

ROG:
Some traffic police trainers set a challenge for their drivers - to see how long they can go without using the brakes or gears to slow down = that means they can only ease off the gas which requires very good observation, anticipation and planning … try it coz its fun

The other thing they challenge them to do is to keep moving and not come to a complete stop - that one I find fairly easy

Yep do a lot of that myself when driving or riding my motorbike.

cooper1203 · 16 November 2019 17:52

ok im confused now. I thought the service brake was the foot pedal secondary brake was the hand brake/parking brake and the exhaust brake was an automatic device that operated a butterfly in the exhaust system creating back pressure.

for example suppose I have the cruise control set to 50mph and begin to go down a hill obviously the truck would speed up with gravity etc so to combat this the ecu slowly closes the throttle butterfly until it is “fully” closed if the truck is still gaining speed it then brings in the exhaust brake.

Hence wby or otherwise one would change down to get the revs into the blue band to make good use of the exhaust brake.

coop

rog · 16 November 2019 18:11

Virtually all driving advice has caveats
General advice is given for what is termed as normal driving conditions

muckles · 16 November 2019 18:41

cooper1203:
ok im confused now.

The exhaust brake, is one of an alternative means of braking dependant on what system is fitted to your truck,

You have several other systems that do the same job of giving braking perfomance without using the service brakes, of which the exhaust brake is often the least effective (The Old Renaults I just reckoned it made a noise, but did bugger all else ) and as you rightly say is a flap on the exhaust. You’ll normally have some sort of lever to operate it, but I driven trucks with a switch on the floor. To get Exhaust brakes to have the best effect you need to be well up the rev band, that means dropping gears, unless you have an accountants truck this can also be done in Automatics.

You have the Jake brake, mostly US truck, but did have one on a Renault Premium years ago, but I think Volvo VEB and Renaults Optibrake is a version of it, but also operates the exhaust valve. This system opens the exhaust valves on compression, which means you don’t get a power stroke, just a load of engine braking it’s quite and effective. The VEB you get a 5 position lever on the steering column.
0 provides no extra braking,
A gives you some extra braking when you touch the brake pedal
1,2 and 3, Is to operate the VEB
B, give extra braking and drops gears quicker.
During this operation you can also shift gears, even in Auto.

Then you have Retarders, like the Voith one in the previous video, also operated by the driver normally using a lever on the steering column, might even be the lever as the others just depnds what was specified when the truck was bought.
We have Mercedes, 2 have the standard Exhaust brake and one has the Voith Retarder, but it’s the same lever to control them.

And I think DAF’s use an Intarder, but that seems to be another version of the liquid retarder, then there are electromagnetic retarders, but I believe they more common on coaches due to the weight penalty.

All systems will also operate automatically on auto’s when you go over you set cruise speed, although with Eco roll systems, there will be a margin before it cuts in to allow the truck to roll over its set cruise speed and save fuel, this margin can be set by the driver, as is the margin of how far under the set cruise speed the truck will go before the cruise control cuts back in.
However if you have the cruise control bang on the limiter, if you roll over this for a set time you’ll get the Overspeed on the tacho.
What I tend to do on long descents is let it roll then hold it back before I get an Overspeed, then let it roll again as I approach the bottom of the hill, this means it rolls further up the hill before coming back on power, although this is probably less possible on the crowded roads of the UK compared to some of the less crowded roads in the place I go.

I bet you’re more confused now