Well Volvo gave me a 750,000 mile warranty on my I shift and that is linked into my engine brake, making down shifts as necessary to keep the rpms up for maximum retardation.
I’m thinking that they might just have a little bit of faith in their gearbox, certainly more than their foundation brakes as they never offered any warranty on the drums and linings [emoji38]
Some really good and informative posts on what seems to be a very controversial subject amongst drivers.
Being old school myself I prefer the old method however when I was training I used to use a mixture of both to let the examiner see the driver could adapt his or her method according to the road situation. Regarding car training it has changed drastically over the years as well and maybe not for the better. Who am I to say but I do know car brakes are far better now than they were thirty years ago. I think it is the same with the brakes in a truck.
At the end of the day if you look at the Lgv accident statistics the main cause is driver error and brake fade or overheated brakes is never mentioned as a cause. In actual fact it was more of a problem years ago than it is now it seems.
Vehicles have definitely improved massively in most respects but can we say the same about driving standards?
newmercman:
Well Volvo gave me a 750,000 mile warranty on my I shift and that is linked into my engine brake, making down shifts as necessary to keep the rpms up for maximum retardation.I’m thinking that they might just have a little bit of faith in their gearbox, certainly more than their foundation brakes as they never offered any warranty on the drums and linings [emoji38]
And there you have it 
To go back to the original topic, I think engine braking is a bit too much to expect for a noob driver on a test. I remember when I started at my first telematics company and for a month or so I was in the bottom 5 out of several hundred drivers. Took me a while to green up and over a year to break the top 10. Back down in the 20s again now. Takes a while to properly master it and test drivers have far more things to worry about.
I guess what I’m saying is, just because it’s not on the test, that doesn’t mean it’s not the right thing to do.
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Many of us older drivers are second or third generation, we spent our childhood in the jump seat watching Dad’s every move and learning along the way.
That’s how things got passed down through the generations, I learned the trade in this manner and I knew how to drive long before I was tall enough to reach the pedals.
You cannot expect a driving school to put all those years of experience into a new driver’s subconscious in a week or so and this is a big factor in today’s health and safety obsessed society. Kids don’t ride along with the old man anymore, this has led to a drop in driving standards and a shortage of new drivers.
Getting back to the original topic, there is no earthly reason why a driver can’t be taught to slow down on the gears and the brakes from the moment they get in the lorry on the first day of training, simply be in an appropriate gear for the speed, whether actually braking at the time or not.
Then it becomes second nature for the new driver to drive this way, once passed they can hone their skills, just as we all do and have done since lorry driving started.
No one is expecting the new driver to display 30 years experience of deceleration skills purely on auxilliary braking systems to the examiner, but the standard of vehicle control should be lorry driver, not car driver.
Carryfast:
albion1971:
At the end of the day if you look at the Lgv accident statistics the main cause is driver error and brake fade or overheated brakes is never mentioned as a cause. In actual fact it was more of a problem years ago than it is now it seems.
Vehicles have definitely improved massively in most respects but can we say the same about driving standards?The simple answer to that is that brake fade is only one of the issues.In that the type of approach in question could also foreseeably involve premature ‘wear’ of brakes thereby also removing their efficiency in that regard and/or running into something having approached a hazard situation with a loaded truck in the same way as a novice driver would with a car.
Which then also leaves the question of what happens when that driver approaches a severe hill decent with a max weight 2-4 axle truck.Without the essential need for engine braking drilled into their head.
Or needs to make an emergency stop,having just negotiated a series of roundabouts or other slowing situations with possibly more worn and/or hotter brakes than they ideally need to be.
The fact is driving standards are all about how good the initial training is.In this case as we’ve seen we’ve got some opposing views as to the methods being taught.When realistically it is difficult to see any hazard situations that shouldn’t be approached using engine braking as an essential part of the slowing down prcedure.
Which by definition counts out the idea of brakes only and avoidance of downshifting on the approach.
No I am sorry but brake fade is never an issue these days or if it is it is not reported as a cause of any accidents.
As I said before you have absolutely no idea of what is involved in training someone to pass an LGV test probably because you have never done it.
There is barely enough time to cover the basics in the time given never mind go into some of the scenarios you mention.
As I said right at the start the test is a BASIC test and these days you only have time get them through their test never mind go into more advanced driving.
It is up to the person to carry on learning after they pass as it is on a car test. If you really believe driving standards are all about how good the initial training is you are more deluded than I thought. Do you think instructors teach students to speed, not indicate properly, take the wrong road position and tailgate? If what you say is true why do we see so much bad driving?
Unfortunately a lot of drivers forget what you have told them the day before never mind anything else. Some find it extremely hard to eradicate their bad car driving habits.
Terry T and Newmercman seem to understand the situation very well. I would love to see the result of you trying to train a driver. I guarantee you would completely confuse them if you spoke to then the way you write your posts but you might just get a little understanding of what it takes. In fact I would go as far as to say you would never pass any of the exams to be a qualified instructor.
Juddian:
Getting back to the original topic, there is no earthly reason why a driver can’t be taught to slow down on the gears and the brakes from the moment they get in the lorry on the first day of training, simply be in an appropriate gear for the speed, whether actually braking at the time or not.
Then it becomes second nature for the new driver to drive this way, once passed they can hone their skills, just as we all do and have done since lorry driving started.No one is expecting the new driver to display 30 years experience of deceleration skills purely on auxilliary braking systems to the examiner, but the standard of vehicle control should be lorry driver, not car driver.
Juddian of course they are taught to be in the appropriate gear for the speed. They would not pass the test if they were not.
Sorry but for some drivers it does not become second nature at all. The good ones may grasp what you are telling them but some definitely do not. As I have said many times the test needs to be more involved to be able to train drivers to the high standards we want but as you know it’s all about time and money so it will probably never happen. Just remember 99% of trainers are lorry drivers themselves or x drivers. Like Carryfast I am not sure you realise just how much of a problem it is sometimes just to get them to test standard in the given time. The whole system stinks.
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So you disagree then Carryfast?
You should’ve said earlier…
Feel free to explain exactly what is ‘confusing’ about teaching someone to drive a truck on the approach to roundabouts and junctions etc etc along the lines of the example in the Atki video.As opposed to the example shown in the C and C + E training one in which the training regime goes out of its way to instil a doctrine of ‘leave the gears alone’.
As for your idea that ‘brake fade is never an issue’ we’ve obviously never seen a case where a driver,might possibly,decide to defend a charge of dangerous driving,related to a runaway vehicle,or failing to stop in time.On the grounds of a training and test regime which institutionally doesn’t instil the essential importance of engine braking and/or the possibility that the brakes were already not in optimum condition anyway because of same.
As usual you disregard any of my points and focus only on approaching roundabouts as in a prehistoric video of a truck made in the 50’s.
I can also assure you no Instructor says LEAVE THE GEARS ALONE.
Things and people have moved on but you are like a stuck record constantly trying to tell everyone your views are correct and theirs are wrong.
Carryfast is always right. Carryfast is always right even when he is wrong.
Now you probably cannot see that people are about topping themselves over this thread but I can so I will leave you to watch your out dated videos and believing only your view counts. Ta Ta.
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What a waste of my life reading this ■■■■■■ If I want to stop I’ll use the brakes if I want to keep momentum I’ll cruise and adjust speed either with or without brakes or even retarder - throttle on or off correct gear for traffic situations, read the road ahead…sometimes retarder all the way sometimes tickle the brake (auto or manual) be in the correct gear.
If I’m empty or light there is not much need for the retarder, loaded is a different scenario altogether. So many variations and not ONE unless road specific, can be text book fundamental training.
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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…
eagerbeaver:
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…
Eh, wot 'appened… have I missed summink.
Carryfast, are you serious?
Read back over this thread and you may be a little surprised to learn that you have come across as a complete nuisance.
You keep on and on and on and on and on and on going over the same old ■■■■ all the time.
Please stop, this is an Internet forum where people come to put their opinion across, not where they come to be told that they’re wrong repeatedly by you.
In every thread you participate the same thing happens, you just stir up a load of arguing and any valid messages get lost in the mess, it really isn’t good for the forum in general.
Seriously, stop it…
Don’t panic Newmercman, if somebody on the Old Timer’s forum innocently mentions something about Detroit two strokes he will be off over there like a rat up a drainpipe! 
Pete.
