windrush:
Anorak, Gardner engines had a very low piston/bore friction. When installing the piston in the bore you ideally needed someone underneath to catch the con rod as the whole lot would slide down under its own weight and the big end studs could catch the crank journal and raise a ‘pip’ on it which would score the bearing shell if left undetected. I mentioned this to a Gardner works engineer and he said that it was designed so that running in wasn’t essential, like he said every road from our quarry was uphill so you couldn’t nurse the engine but max rpm wouldn’t hurt them as long as they were not overrevved down hill. Whether that caused the smoke I don’t know, they also were not fitted with valve stem oil seals so I suppose that a little oil would run down into the combustion chamber after the engine was stopped?
Pete.
Thanks Windrush, good stuff. I have noticed on old, knackered engines of various makes (my lorry-owning acquaintances all run knackers!), they fill the yard with blue-grey smoke on a cold start. Once they have warmed up, there is no problem. I thought there might have been something in the design of the Gardner piston/rings which meant that compression was low until the engine was at its running temperature. I ran my pick-up on rapeseed oil a couple of summers back and, although it is now back on diesel, it also smokes awfully and performs badly when cold. I have read that rapeseed oil causes lubrication problems and overheating of the top ring, which causes bore polishing, leading to (I deduce) poor compression when cold.
Your valve guide leakage theory sounds good too. Presumably, a lack of seals on the valve guides was another little detail which reduced friction, contributing to the superiority of Gardnrs
G’day chaps, in answer to your queries about the ‘cold smoke’ on start up, the reason is that the top land of the LXB piston is 0.025" smaller that the bore. Don’t leave it idling it won’t get warm enough, you should drive it immediately, if possible, to put it under load to expand the piston to it’s running state. The later turbo engines had top ring (cast iron) inserts cast into the piston before machining so they were made to a closer tolerance to the bore size with a consequential loss of the trademark ‘cold smoke’. As far as the lubricating oil saga goes, the normally aspirated engines had piston rings which had very little ring tension, i.e. less drag - better fuel figures. You can physically put the ring onto a piston by finger pressure which is not the norm for most engine designs. A base lubricating oil was all that was necessary and allowed the rings to bed into the bores when new. With the advent of heavily turbocharged engines, coming into circulation in the late 70’s, a base engine oil was not sufficient ,heavier radial pressure piston rings, plus the extra pressure of the turbo boost required additional formulations to be made to the lube oil’s ‘additive packs’ in order to allow a sufficient oil film between piston rings and liners. If, you used these later higher performance oils on a normally aspirated LXB, for instance, you stood a chance of the rings not bedding into the bores. Hence oil consumption could be a problem. If, you ‘bedded’ the engine in with a base oil first it was possible to go onto a higher spec oil later and not suffer higher oil usage.
5Valve:
G’day chaps, in answer to your queries about the ‘cold smoke’ on start up, the reason is that the top land of the LXB piston is 0.025" smaller that the bore. Don’t leave it idling it won’t get warm enough, you should drive it immediately, if possible, to put it under load to expand the piston to it’s running state. The later turbo engines had top ring (cast iron) inserts cast into the piston before machining so they were made to a closer tolerance to the bore size with a consequential loss of the trademark ‘cold smoke’. As far as the lubricating oil saga goes, the normally aspirated engines had piston rings which had very little ring tension, i.e. less drag - better fuel figures. You can physically put the ring onto a piston by finger pressure which is not the norm for most engine designs. A base lubricating oil was all that was necessary and allowed the rings to bed into the bores when new. With the advent of heavily turbocharged engines, coming into circulation in the late 70’s, a base engine oil was not sufficient ,heavier radial pressure piston rings, plus the extra pressure of the turbo boost required additional formulations to be made to the lube oil’s ‘additive packs’ in order to allow a sufficient oil film between piston rings and liners. If, you used these later higher performance oils on a normally aspirated LXB, for instance, you stood a chance of the rings not bedding into the bores. Hence oil consumption could be a problem. If, you ‘bedded’ the engine in with a base oil first it was possible to go onto a higher spec oil later and not suffer higher oil usage.
Superb lesson, Mr. 5valve. I am (and, I guess, many others are) interested to learn those odd differences which made the Gardner stand apart from more conventional designs. Am I right in guessing that, once the parts had bedded in, a higher-specification oil would give better durability as a matter of course?
Can anybody tell me how many amps the starter motor on a 180 6LXB is likely to take? I’m looking to fit a master switch to isolate the batteries, but want to be sure it can handle the high, albeit short, current.
Cheers.
TruckinCraig:
Can anybody tell me how many amps the starter motor on a 180 6LXB is likely to take? I’m looking to fit a master switch to isolate the batteries, but want to be sure it can handle the high, albeit short, current.
Cheers.
Durite do a nice tidy 2500amp isolater switch which will do the job.
hiya,
A return to the isolator switch Eh’ all BRS vehicles were so fitted at one time,
it was usually fitted somewhere in the passenger side, very effective type of
immobiliser and the BRS ones were lockable.
thanks harry, long retired.
isolator switches ?half of the motors i have driven would best be left with the keys in and the door open in the hope that someone was daft enough to pinch them . i only had one with a separate key , supposed to lock the brakes once the handbrake was applied , but the daft thing kept having a fit of the funnies and locking the handbrake off . eventually threw the key away and ignored it . cheers , dave
TruckinCraig:
Can anybody tell me how many amps the starter motor on a 180 6LXB is likely to take? I’m looking to fit a master switch to isolate the batteries, but want to be sure it can handle the high, albeit short, current.
Cheers.
Durite do a nice tidy 2500amp isolater switch which will do the job.
5Valve:
G’day chaps, in answer to your queries about the ‘cold smoke’ on start up, the reason is that the top land of the LXB piston is 0.025" smaller that the bore. Don’t leave it idling it won’t get warm enough, you should drive it immediately, if possible, to put it under load to expand the piston to it’s running state. The later turbo engines had top ring (cast iron) inserts cast into the piston before machining so they were made to a closer tolerance to the bore size with a consequential loss of the trademark ‘cold smoke’. As far as the lubricating oil saga goes, the normally aspirated engines had piston rings which had very little ring tension, i.e. less drag - better fuel figures. You can physically put the ring onto a piston by finger pressure which is not the norm for most engine designs. A base lubricating oil was all that was necessary and allowed the rings to bed into the bores when new. With the advent of heavily turbocharged engines, coming into circulation in the late 70’s, a base engine oil was not sufficient ,heavier radial pressure piston rings, plus the extra pressure of the turbo boost required additional formulations to be made to the lube oil’s ‘additive packs’ in order to allow a sufficient oil film between piston rings and liners. If, you used these later higher performance oils on a normally aspirated LXB, for instance, you stood a chance of the rings not bedding into the bores. Hence oil consumption could be a problem. If, you ‘bedded’ the engine in with a base oil first it was possible to go onto a higher spec oil later and not suffer higher oil usage.
The 6LX in my Viewline was fitted with high compression pistons (IIRC, 15:1 instead of 14:1) when it was rebuilt with a new block. Even on the coldest day (it wasn’t a fair weather lorry) it would crack up and idle with virtually no smoke. Oh, and it pulled like a train too!
[zb]
anorak:
Presumably the high compression pistons gave more torque- how much? Were they genuine Gardner parts?
I guess so but, after John Killingbeck’s attention to the pump, it already thought it was a 240.
Yes, they were genuine Gardner parts, bought from Paul Gardner Engineering in 1992 along with the new block, and they had done 9 hours on a bench test engine.
I worked for large company as a fitter then later as a driver we ran a large fleet of ERFs and Seddon Atkinsons mostly fitted with Gardner engines we had very little trouble with them some of
the lorries were double and triple trunked they covered enormous mileage we ran them up to 14 years never touched the bottom end only problems we had were the odd valve dropping or the odd head gasket oil consumption was good then we went on to L10 ■■■■■■■ which were a complete bag of ■■■■ total rebuilds after only 400000 leaked oil and water totally unreliable then we moved on to the ■■■■■■■ M11 which were not bad on fuel but were plagued with electronic faults then when our head office decided to change buying policy we bought Volvo FL and later FM12 which were the most unreliable lorries ever to grace our fleet they couldn’t handle the 24 hour running operation 6 days week we tried DAF 85CFs after that which were quite good so in my own opinion nothing can match the Gardner for fuel and reliability and just one more thing most of the Gardners were turbocharged
If you look at the PSV market,the 6LXB was being offered (and supplied) right
up until emissions beat it in 1992/3,certainly by Leyland and Dennis (and probably
others),so it must have been a good product.
In response to the comment about Gardner PSV engines. I still have a copy of a report I put together, in 1987, for the new M.D. who arrived from Perkins, to run Gardner. At the time I was responsible for Bus and Coach engine sales, and, my figures for the PSV engine population may be enlightening if you have only thought of them as truck engine suppliers.
UK population circa 13/14000 engines, e.g. London 2,800, NBC 4,500, West Midlands 1,900, Scottish Bus Group 1,300.
Hong Kong. KMB 2,000, CMB 1,000.
Kenya 400, Malawi 220, South Africa 3,700.
Jamaica 170.
Belgium 100, Portugal 50, Finland 30.
In the main, PSV engines had a minimum service life expectancy of circa 12 years, much greater than front line truck engines which for many might only do 6/8 years before replacement/being cascaded to shunting duties.
The emission legislation, circa 1991, put paid to 6LXB sales in UK bus chassis, (cost to meet engineering changes vs potential future volumes). Some export sales continued but at reducing levels.
5Valve:
In response to the comment about Gardner PSV engines. I still have a copy of a report I put together, in 1987, for the new M.D. who arrived from Perkins, to run Gardner. At the time I was responsible for Bus and Coach engine sales, and, my figures for the PSV engine population may be enlightening if you have only thought of them as truck engine suppliers.
UK population circa 13/14000 engines, e.g. London 2,800, NBC 4,500, West Midlands 1,900, Scottish Bus Group 1,300.
Hong Kong. KMB 2,000, CMB 1,000.
Kenya 400, Malawi 220, South Africa 3,700.
Jamaica 170.
Belgium 100, Portugal 50, Finland 30.
In the main, PSV engines had a minimum service life expectancy of circa 12 years, much greater than front line truck engines which for many might only do 6/8 years before replacement/being cascaded to shunting duties.
The emission legislation, circa 1991, put paid to 6LXB sales in UK bus chassis, (cost to meet engineering changes vs potential future volumes). Some export sales continued but at reducing levels.
Very interesting post this “5valve”,gives us an insight into and beyond just the road haulage motors most of us on the site were involved with although there are a couple of members from the same area that are both operators of PSV’s but I’m not sure wether they ever ran any Gardners .Cheers Bewick.
My first job on leaving school was as a Trainee Mechanic with Bristol Omnibus Company at their Gloucester depot. All the buses and coaches were Gardner-powered, 5LW, 6LW and 5LWH. When I got to work in the mornings the whole depot, which was entirely under cover, was filled with thick smoke, so much so that my lungs forced me to leave the company after about a year. It was one of the experienced fitters who informed me that Gardners could be made to run with more power, better accelerator movement, less start-up smoke and no oil leaks. When I innocently asked why we didn’t include these mods to the entire fleet I was told that the company didn’t think it was worth spending the extra money. It would have involved about twenty-five quid per engine in those days.
Tom Riding’s restored Scammell Rigid 8 - Reg No FJH 102 which is powered by a Gardner 6LW
In 2005 disaster struck the Gardner 6LW engine when it knocked out No 5 big end on the way down to a rally near Shrewsbury in Shropshire. The cab was taken off and the engine removed and sent to Paul Gardner Engineering for a complete rebuild to as new standard. The picture above shows the engine in the process of rebuilding with Tom Riding operating the block and tackle while Mr Paul Gardner (right) is locating the front cylinder block.
Tom Riding is seen here taking a close interest whilst the rear block is positioned during the rebuilding of the Gardner 6LW engine.
Tom Riding pictured with the newly rebuilt Gardner 6LW engine back at Longridge shortly before installation. The engine still needs dressing ie the air compressor needs fitting as does the flywheel and clutch housing. Yuo can find the complete history of Scammell Rigid 8 - Reg No FJH 102 HERE
moomooland:
3 Tom Riding’s restored Scammell Rigid 8 - Reg No FJH 102 which is powered by a Gardner 6LW
2 In 2005 disaster struck the Gardner 6LW engine when it knocked out No 5 big end on the way down to a rally near Shrewsbury in Shropshire. The cab was taken off and the engine removed and sent to Paul Gardner Engineering for a complete rebuild to as new standard. The picture above shows the engine in the process of rebuilding with Tom Riding operating the block and tackle while Mr Paul Gardner (right) is locating the front cylinder block.
1 Tom Riding is seen here taking a close interest whilst the rear block is positioned during the rebuilding of the Gardner 6LW engine.
0 Tom Riding pictured with the newly rebuilt Gardner 6LW engine back at Longridge shortly before installation. The engine still needs dressing ie the air compressor needs fitting as does the flywheel and clutch housing. Yuo can find the complete history of Scammell Rigid 8 - Reg No FJH 102 HERE
Tell you what mate they are truly fantastic pics,the ridings scammell and the 6lw engine what memories,thanks.
regards dave.
.Cheers Bewick.
In 2005 disaster struck the Gardner 6LW engine when it knocked out No 5 big end on the way down to a rally near Shrewsbury in Shropshire.
Tom Riding is seen here taking a close interest whilst the rear block is positioned during the rebuilding of the Gardner 6LW engine.
Tom Riding pictured with the newly rebuilt Gardner 6LW engine back at Longridge shortly before installation.