Just finished reading all of the posts.Another memory flashback.Richard Read had a 6LW fitted with a TURBO! I think it was a test for Gardner,However the drivers refused to drive it as it got that hot that the paint on the engine covers started to blister 
A few burnt left legs for sure.Might have been o/k for winter use only.Another memory flashback,Richard bought the first new 8 legger in the forest.One of the drivers on it had a wicked sense of humour,he came in to the yard one day with a carrot on a stick poking out of the windscreen which opened forward.He told Richard he was trying to coax it along!! Richard almost bit his pipe in half 
The truck was an Atky MVJ.cant remember the numbers.
windrush:
Carryfast:
But slightly (more like a lot) faster over the course of a year isnāt the same amount of work rate which is a clue.Work DONE then to be precise, if you had 6 or 7 loads to do then you did them and that was it, whether you had a 201 Gardner or a ā ā ā ā ā ā ā we still only did the same work that we were given to do.
When I was given a R/R 265 Li I didnāt do any more work than with the Gardner, just did it slightly faster, used more fuel, and carried 5 cwt less payload due to the heavier engine!
Pete.
Thatās the thing in the real world in the uk especially in the gardners heyday before the motorway network was built up it didnāt matter if you had a 180 or 400 you wouldnāt gain so much time you could do significantly more work.
Driving across the Australian outback or an American interstate but in a road Britain not so much.
kr79:
windrush:
Carryfast:
But slightly (more like a lot) faster over the course of a year isnāt the same amount of work rate which is a clue.Work DONE then to be precise, if you had 6 or 7 loads to do then you did them and that was it, whether you had a 201 Gardner or a ā ā ā ā ā ā ā we still only did the same work that we were given to do.
Pete.
Thatās the thing in the real world in the uk especially in the gardners heyday before the motorway network was built up it didnāt matter if you had a 180 or 400 you wouldnāt gain so much time you could do significantly more work.
Driving across the Australian outback or an American interstate but in a road Britain not so much.
A road Britain was also a thing of the past by the mid 1960ās let alone 1984.But even some relatively local tipper work mainly off motorways and dual carriageways would probably have resulted in something with more power getting another load or two done in the course of a day especially if there were some hills around.Which is why the 180 powered tipper is now a thing of the past although,as Iāve said,it took a long time for the customers to realise it.
Although as nmm said the Gardner powered wagon would probably always get there first if it was in front of everything else on a road on which the faster ones couldnāt get by it. 
windrush:
Carryfast:
But slightly (more like a lot) faster over the course of a year isnāt the same amount of work rate which is a clue.Work DONE then to be precise, if you had 6 or 7 loads to do then you did them and that was it, whether you had a 201 Gardner or a ā ā ā ā ā ā ā we still only did the same work that we were given to do.
Pete.
Which just leaves the question of why did the operators ever decide to walk away from trucks like those 8LXC 265 powered SAās on the basis of if it wasnāt broke why fix it 
.
leylandlover:
Richard bought the first new 8 legger in the forest.One of the drivers on it had a wicked sense of humour,he came in to the yard one day with a carrot on a stick poking out of the windscreen which opened forward.He told Richard he was trying to coax it along!! Richard almost bit his pipe in half
Obviously one of those old wise drivers that Saviem was referring to. 
Carryfast:
kr79:
windrush:
Carryfast:
But slightly (more like a lot) faster over the course of a year isnāt the same amount of work rate which is a clue.Work DONE then to be precise, if you had 6 or 7 loads to do then you did them and that was it, whether you had a 201 Gardner or a ā ā ā ā ā ā ā we still only did the same work that we were given to do.
Pete.
Thatās the thing in the real world in the uk especially in the gardners heyday before the motorway network was built up it didnāt matter if you had a 180 or 400 you wouldnāt gain so much time you could do significantly more work.
Driving across the Australian outback or an American interstate but in a road Britain not so much.A road Britain was also a thing of the past by the mid 1960ās let alone 1984.But even some relatively local tipper work mainly off motorways and dual carriageways would probably have resulted in something with more power getting another load or two done in the course of a day especially if there were some hills around.Which is why the 180 powered tipper is now a thing of the past although,as Iāve said,it took a long time for the customers to realise it.
Although as nmm said the Gardner powered wagon would probably always get there first if it was in front of everything else on a road on which the faster ones couldnāt get by it.
Oh we are back in the 80s when Gardner were offering power ratings in line with the other fleet trucks of the day. Wether they were anygood is another arguement.
In the late 80s guys with foden 4300s and MAN 331 tippers were still doing the same amount of loads as guys with scammell routemans and magirus deutzs and fodens with the 201 gardner on muck away round our way.
PART 9,Dutch Foden Lorries.
[zb]
anorak:Saviem:
Evening all, boring is it not, getting back to lorries!![ZB], well you could be right, Paul en Van Welde,Nieuwerkenaand, IJessel, (better known as Roset, specialists in Alloy bodywork, did a lot of cabs for European Macks.
But I would favour Van Eck, (Trigt of Gravenzande), or perhaps my number one option would be Rondaan!!!
Maybe we should share the āBlack Puddingā, and I will provide the eggs to go with it!!! Interesting area the ālow countriesā is it not!!
But that Foden ā¦she had a Gardner, the worlds best oil engine by far!! Cheerio for now.
I was only guessing! Van Eck rings a bellā¦ BLB ran a piece about a lorry similar to this at the Brussels show in 1957(?), and I think one of the comments below identified the coachbuilder. I cannot find any of this, because BLBās search engine is crap. I have the photo, though:
0
There is a list of Dutch coachbuilders here:
conam.info/carrosseriebouwer ā¦ riebouwers
Dutch Foden Lorries.
Quite a number of Foden lorries were were sold in Holland from the late 1940s onwards,the first one being
a Foden S18 FG TU 4x2 Tractive Unit and was operated by Van Der Scheur Transport,Apeldoorn,who bought nine more Foden up to 1958. Foden set up Fodenway in 1952 to import Foden motor vehicles in to Holland,and was located in Heelsum,near Arnhem. Foden lorries were popular with many road freight
companies that transported bricks and building materials.
In 1953,the Haukes road freight company,based near Nijmegen,bought three Foden S18 FG8/15 Rigid Eight-Wheeler Lorries,which had Gardner 8LW Straight Eight 150 BHP Diesel Engines,Mk1 tropical water-oil cooler
radiators,dropside bodies and pulled Raaymakers Drawbar Trailers. These Fodenās were regularly operated
at around 60 tonnes GTW,top speed was 45 MPH ,but the Fodenās had very poor acceleration and took a long time to attain 40 MPH - never mind 45! 
Their cabās were hot in the summer and very cold and draughty in the winter,and had no heaters!
By 1959,Haukes operated 16 Foden S18 FG8/15 and S18 FG8/24 8-wheeler lorries and one Foden S20 FG6/22
lorry.
Some other Dutch Foden operators replaced the S18 Cabs of their Fodens with the better appointed and
more comfortable cabs made by such firms as DAF,GOFA of Germany and Wielens.Some brand new Fodens
were fitted with locally produced cabs.
Around about 150 Fodens were sold in Holland from 1948 to 1960,and only ten Fodens were sold from 1958
to 1963:New Foden S20 FGs and S21 Spaceship FGs,etc, were struggling to compete with the more sophisticated models by Mercedes-Benz,Scania-Vabis,Volvo,DAF,Henschel,Mack,etc.
The popularity of British-built commercial vehicles in Holland declined in the 1960s,because the European,
,Scandinavian and American marques had better cabs,more reliable and more powerful engines and had a good support service - the British back up service was poor.
And here is an article on Dutch Fodens on Big Lorry Blog:-
commercialmotor.com/big-lorr ā¦ u-cannot-b
VALKYRIE.
Super post Valkyrie, and well done for locating the BLB article. I think they did another one, which showed one at the Brussels(?) show. I think a subsequent article to that identified the coachbuilder of the cab, on the one I posted earlier.
It looks like Foden gave up about 1958, then- just when the other makes were flooding the market with luxury cabs (and Gardner had the new LX to offer. If those customers were happy with 8LWs, an 8 cylinder LX would have been ideal: 200bhp at 1700rpm would have been very desirable in 1958). I donāt reckon cab design was the reason they failed, because they had the Dutch coachbuilders to help them out (at a cost, maybe). You also mention service support. I bet that, alongside the advances in cab design, Fodenās European competition was working hard on its dealer networks, anticipating increased sales across the Continent. Fodens and Gardners had done well to build up a great opportunity, then just decided not to bother, it seems. I wonder why.
Evening all, lovely post Valkyrie, (alias Scania -Volvo), and well researched! I well remember this Big Lorry Blog post from John O, (enjoying the Spanish sunshine)! I only wish that he could be tempted to join Truck Net, his experience of, and knowledge of Foden is superb.As is his sense of fun!!
Fodens big problem in the ālow countriesā was a complete lack of support from Sandbach. Although there was market potential, it seemed small compared to the volumes available in the domestic, UK, market, and as they could not satisfy the UK demands, then why bother attacking another market! Somewhere back in this thread I think dear CF identified this achilles heel of UK manufacturers. Contrast this attitude to that of Scania, who from the late 30s, saw their success as an exporter of their technology, irrespective of their domestic Swedish market.
To put things into perspective [ZB] dug up a rather pretentious paper, regarding Fodens potential, and lack of ambition in Europe. Actually the paper contained some very good points, and relevant to success in a market that really most UK manufacturers/assemblers could not make up their minds about!
Even though it may be a little off thread, perhaps [ZB] could put up a link to this paper, it makes good reading, given the historic period, and also relevance to Gardner in Europe, and would perhaps provide a stimulus to debate around the subject.
I shall away to my repast, for tommorow my new John Deere arrives from Belgium,ā¦and she runs on tracks!!! I shall not sleep with anticipation, and shall while away the passing hours with a little Bollinger! Bon nuit mes Braves, Cheerio for now.
Is this the one?
mk-marketing.eu/e-Pamphlets/ ā¦ mphlet.pdf
PART 10,Dutch Foden Lorries.
[zb]
anorak:
Is this the one?
mk-marketing.eu/e-Pamphlets/ ā¦ mphlet.pdf
I think so. I was just about to post that up,which is actually entitled :-
The failure of Fodens Limited in The European Common Market.
Anyway,after much trial and error searching on the Internet,Iāve finally come up with all (?) of the posts
on BIGLORRYBLOG in relation to the Foden FG8/24 Rigid Eight-Wheeler Lorry that was an exhibit at the
Amsterdam Commercial Vehicle Show in February 1957,and one or two sister Fodens:-
commercialmotor.com/big-lorr ā¦ -biglorr-3
commercialmotor.com/big-lorr ā¦ ania-and-p
The answer as to who built the cab for the above Foden shows up on the Google Search Results Page,in the form of an excerpt from the post of somebody who responded to the above Foden Thread. The strange
and infuriating thing is that,after clicking on to this result,it goes on to the above Foden thread alright,
but the posts,answers and responces to this thread have yet to be re-instated by the BIGLORRYBLOG
Information Technology Team! 
- hundreds or thousands of other posts are also missing on other
threads 
There is vital,precious and historic information in these posts which most definitely
ought to be re-instated on BIGLORRYBLOG very soon!
To return to the above Dutch Foden,the Google search result produced this :-
Search Results
"Commercialmotor.com - Where Foden leads Scania and Porsche ā¦
commercialmotor.com Ć¢ā¬Āŗ News and Blogs Ć¢ā¬Āŗ Big Lorry Blog
31 August 2010; By Biglorryblog ā¦ He continues: āI am not sure who the local coachbuilder was in Holland who made the cab but I trust the Biglorryblog anorak ā¦ Hello Brian, This cab was built by Paul & Van Weelde, dutch body builder. The eight wheeler on the picture is then new and just bought by Gelsing from Lent NL.ā
Thus:-
google.com/search?q=31+Aug+2 ā¦ ā¦%22&rlz=
We donāt know who posted the above answer ,but we are sure to know when the BIGLORRYBLOG IT Team
re-instate all those currently missing posts! 
The uncomfortable fact that British commercial vehicle manufacturers could not compete with European,
Scandinavian and American lorry,motorcoach and bus builders on the Continent just a few years BEFORE
the likes of Volvo,Mercedes-Benz,Scania-Vabis,Magirus-Deutz,etc,invaded the British commercial vehicle
market from 1966 was a harbinger. It should have acted as a warning to British lorry,motorcoach and bus makers and made them get their act together! It probably did to a certain extent. Hence such
designs as the AEC,Albion and Leyland Ergomatic Cabs,Foden S24 Sabrina Tilt Cab,AEC V8, Leyland 500-Series,Foden FD6 Mk VII Turbocharged ,Gardner 6 and 8LXB,AEC AV/AH760 ,Rolls-Royce Eagle engines,etc,and so on .
VALKYRIE.
More good work Valkyrie. Haha- I was right about the coachbuilder the first time, even though I was guessing! That cab looks nothing like the Roset ones on the LV75. It looks a cut above the upturned plastic buckets fitted to British market Fodens, though.
Regarding your last words: the Foden/Gardner combination was bang up to the mark in the fifties. With a bit of money and foresight, the two firms could have done exactly what Scania-Vabis, DAF, Volvo et al did, and created a sales network across Europe- a platform for future expansion. I still cannot fathom out why they just let it pass.
[zb]
anorak:
More good work Valkyrie. Haha- I was right about the coachbuilder the first time, even though I was guessing! That cab looks nothing like the Roset ones on the LV75. It looks a cut above the upturned plastic buckets fitted to British market Fodens, though.Regarding your last words: the Foden/Gardner combination was bang up to the mark in the fifties. With a bit of money and foresight, the two firms could have done exactly what Scania-Vabis, DAF, Volvo et al did, and created a sales network across Europe- a platform for future expansion. I still cannot fathom out why they just let it pass.
It was to do with trade tarriffs and high import taxes levied to protect the European Common Market (as it was then) member states, although it was very much a fledgling organisation then. That is why such as AEC and Leyland (to a lesser extent) sought joint ventures with manufacturers in the Common Market to get round the import levies. Of course, as has been discussed previously British Leyland also gave up in Europe in the mid-60ās after Lord Stokes had assumed control of the organisation.
The Common Market had six founding members: Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands, so how did the big two, namely Volvo and Scania manage to penetrate those markets
I think in our case (GB) it has more to do with the European Free Trade Agreement, The founding members of the EFTA were Austria, Denmark, Norway, Portugal, Sweden, Switzerland and us. The EFTA removed expensive Customās Tariffs from goods bought from Member states and it all happened in 1960, which gave the Swedes plenty of time to plan their attack
The internal tariffs in the Common Market were removed on industrial products in 1968, this coincides with the arrival of Mercedes and Magirus Deutz on to our shores, maybe it was allowed so as not to upset the apple cart We were at that time trying to join up to the common Market, it was only Charles De Gaulleās veto, because of our links with the USA, that stopped us from getting in and as soon as he was succeeded by George Pompideau we were in 
There is also the British Commonwealth to consider, we did have strong export markets and we never had much competition either, the Old School Tie Network was in its heyday back then and our Lorries were very much a part of that. Perhaps the thinking was one of superiority over the foreigners, seeing as how we had just kicked some arse only a few years before. The thinking that Johnny Foreigner would never gives us any trouble turned out to be a major blunder, maybe that pompous thinking led to our placing little importance to the huge export market just a short sea crossing away
You could well be correct, Iām probably getting mixed up with EFTA and the Common Market, but there was certainly trade import tariffs, embargos, and quotas involved, plus of course lots of politics. Again, as you rightly say the mainstream British manufacturers in the 1950s had a captive export market with British Commonwealth countries and Europe was never that much of a priority for them with their different weights and dimensions. In the grand scheme of things both Gardner and Foden were only relatively small companies
[zb]
anorak:
Is this the one?
mk-marketing.eu/e-Pamphlets/ ā¦ mphlet.pdf
The relevant bit to the topic is that he didnāt say that putting a Gardner engine in a Foden,at that point in time,would help export sales.Most of the point made seems to suggest that the Brits were allowing themselves to fall behind in the horsepower race.No surprise there and no surprise that the British customers were still speccing underpowerd Gardner engines around 10 years later.The fact is there was no way that the British manufacturers could work under the conflicting demands of the export markets and itās domestic market where both were pulling in opposite directions and where domestic sales were the most important driving force. 
newmercman:
There is also the British Commonwealth to consider, we did have strong export markets and we never had much competition either, the Old School Tie Network was in its heyday back then and our Lorries were very much a part of that. Perhaps the thinking was one of superiority over the foreigners, seeing as how we had just kicked some arse only a few years before. The thinking that Johnny Foreigner would never gives us any trouble turned out to be a major blunder, maybe that pompous thinking led to our placing little importance to the huge export market just a short sea crossing away
By 1970 the ācommonwealthā (at least the bit that mattered and had the money to buy trucks) were well on the way to understanding that the US products were where the action was.The problem for our manufacturers was that issue of the British customer base being unable to adapt fast enough to the idea of more powerful trucks with multi speed transmissions.
Regarding the above three posts:
Nmm, gingerfold- The notion that the British Bulldog mentality made us disregard the talents of foreigners may apply to popular culture, but we are talking about the decisions of successful businessmen, with firms full of clever people. One would expect them to be less naĆĀÆve and better-informed. For some reason, they found a reason or reasons (or excuses) not to join the party. If a collaboration was the only way, there were plenty of potential suitors in Europe in the fifties, all of them doing whatever it took to keep up with the increasing demand for top-weight lorries.
Cf- These Dutch and Belgian customers were quite happy to pay the price of an 8 cylinder Gardner engine, then send the chassis to a coachbuilder to have a decent cab put on it. In the late fifties, 150-180bhp was a typical top-of-the-range output in Europe, usually at 2200rpm or thereabouts. The 6LX had 150 at 1700rpm, so an 8 cylinder version would have made 200 at that speed. They would have been the performance machines of their day, with market-leading torque.
[zb]
anorak:
Cf- These Dutch and Belgian customers were quite happy to pay the price of an 8 cylinder Gardner engine, then send the chassis to a coachbuilder to have a decent cab put on it. In the late fifties, 150-180bhp was a typical top-of-the-range output in Europe, usually at 2200rpm or thereabouts. The 6LX had 150 at 1700rpm, so an 8 cylinder version would have made 200 at that speed. They would have been the performance machines of their day, with market-leading torque.
But the link to the example,which was making the point about the issues and problems,faced by our export deptās,was all about the 1970ās which was the make or break point in time for the Brits and no surprise that it was the P (power) word which seemed to be one of the major issues concerning what was being put in the things compared to what was actually needed to be put in them.But,as Iāve said,no surprise either,at that point in time,the sales rep who was the subject of that article,wasnāt calling for Gardner engines to be fitted in those Fodens unlike many buyers in the domestic market were still demanding in British built trucks at the time.Itās just that he obviously didnāt seem to realise the implications of that at the time.Unlike anyone who was spending their time helping to make successful sales into the emergency vehicle export markets using up to 635 hp US power and driveline technology.
The difference was we werenāt hampered by having to satisfy the domestic marketās backward demands because in our case we told them this is what weāre building take it or leave it and in most cases the Brits went and bought an old tech 1960ās designed Thornycroft ,with a naturally aspirated ā ā ā ā ā ā ā 903 in it at best,instead.Luckily for me my guvnors couldnāt care less about that situation.But unfortunately for Fodens they didnāt have that luxury of being able to tell the domestic market take or leave it.