Hello everybody.I find some of the reactions to some of Carryfastâs comments amusing.
However,the Detroit Diesel 16V-71 Two Stroke,18.6-Litre,V16-cylinder,635 BHP Diesel Engine
was/is part of Detroitâs Series 71 Automotive Two Stroke Diesel Engine Range,and powered
fire engines,dump trucks,etc.
Indeed,the Reynolds-Boughton Chubb Pathfinder 6x6 Airfield Fire Crash Fire Engine model
was actually powered by one of the above Detroit 16V-71 Two Stroke Diesel Engines,such as
this example,WNE 371L,registered on Thursday,1st February,1973 in Manchester,and operated
by Manchester International Airport:-
flickr.com/photos/homer----s ⌠518854589/
Gardner Engines History
In regard to L.Gardner & Sons Ltd,as I have already pointed out in earlier threads and posts,this company
lost itâs way in the late 1940s-early 1950s:Itâs most powerful and practical engine was the
6LW 102 BHP/K-Type 112 BHP engine for maximum weight four,six and eight-wheeler road haulage
lorries,compared to the more powerful and efficent AEC,Albion,Daimler,Dennis,Foden,Leyland,
Meadows,Rolls-Royce,Sentinel and Thornycroft Diesel Engines.All of these marques had at least
one engine in their range that produced at least 120 BHP or more! âŚand some of these engines powered motorcoaches and buses as well as lorries.And we do know that AEC and Leyland produced 150 BHP engines,and Rolls-Royce produced even more powerful engines.Gardner ought to have been ashamed of itself! 
Heaven knows how many sales Gardner lost in the 1950s,1960s and so on through not producing powerful enough engines,long waiting lists due to inefficent production,too long responce times in coming out with more powerful engines,and,from 1964,the ÂŁ1000 surcharge on every vehicle that was fitted with a Gardner engine - the motor vehicles manufacturers had had enough of Gardnerâs idiosyncratic ways and wanted to encourage operators to fit engines made by Rolls-Royce,AEC,â â â â â â â â â â â in to their new lorriesâŚbecause of Gardner these vehicle makers were losing out on sales,too - hence the vehicle makerâs surcharge.
By which time the over-praised Gardner 6LX 150,which ought to have been in production by 1950 - NOT from 1958! - had been overtaken by the 175 to at least 400 BHP engines of AEC,â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â and,in the case of Rolls-Royce,engines of up to 400 BHP plus at least!
Gardner came out with a âToken Pseudo Powerfulâ engine in 1966:the 6LXB 180 - which ought to have come out in 1956! Not 1966! By the late 1960s-early 1970s the likes of Scania,Mercedes-Benz,
Volvo and DAF were gradually increasing their share of the British Commercial Vehicle Market
with generally better and more powerful lorries than at least a good number of British lorries.
The first really powerful (in itâs day) Gardner automotive diesel engine,the 8LXB 240-250,was
introduced in 1970 and helped to maintain and/or increase British lorry makerâs shareâs in the
tractive unit market 
âŚat least for a time.But throughout the 1970s and 1980s,the power
stakes just kept on rising and rising - average horsepower for maximum weight tractive units in
1979 was 290 - 300 BHP,and by 1986 it had shot up to 360 BHP,but it still increased to reach the
realms of 400,500 BHP and even more during the 1990s and 2000s.Of course,most 500 BHP plus engines powered the flagships of the lorry fleets.
But during the last thirty years or so,there has been a general engine power rise in other sectors of the commercial vehicle market,the average power for rigid eight-wheeler lorries,for
example,is now around 350-400 BHP,but I do recall Foden offering a 500 BHP rigid eight-wheeler flagship model! All these high power rigid eight-wheelers are light years ahead of underpowered
Gardner 6LXB-engined Fodens,ERFs,Atkinsons,etc, - and these were underpowered from new!
During the rise in engine power during the 1970s,Gardner was left behind in the power stakes yet again,and,true to form,the new 6LXC 201 and 8LXC 265 engines were long overdue - in 1978 - not
only that,but both engines were just not powerful enough! The 8LXC 265 was 30 to 40 BHP short of
the average power for tractive units! Even Paul Gardner himself admits that these engines were
not really on top of the job! - especially with the 6 BHP per ton rule.
With British Leylandâs criminal elimination of certain marques and models (some employed Gardner engines) during the 1970s and 1980s, 
a substantial proportion of Gardnerâs customer base,both in
the freight and passenger vehicle sectors,was lost. The result of this helped Volvo,Scania,
Mercedes-Benz,etc,to increase their market shares -It served the incompetent Leyland management right!
Things just gradually got worse for L.Gardner & Sons Ltd.In June 1981 the first official Gardner
turbocharged engines were introduced (most other engine builders started to produce turbocharged
engines in the 1950s! QV my post of Turbocharged Engine Production Commencement List,7th post
down,page 10:-
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=87800&start=270 ).
The Gardner 6LXCT 230 and the Gardner 8LXCT 300 engines were both outgunned by engines from
Rolls-Royce,â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â
Meanwhile,competition in commercial vehicle lorry,bus and motorcoach markets was increasing,which
in turn,put the British commercial vehicle industry under increasing pressure from the
European and Scandinavian lorry,bus and motorcoach manufacturers,as well as the American engine
builders,Caterpillar,â â â â â â â and Detroit.
More and more Britsh lorry,bus and motorcoach operators were buying Continental marques,many of
these offered discounts to customers,something which the British makers could not afford to do,
while other operators specified â â â â â â â â â â Caterpillar,or Rolls-Royce-Perkins engines for their
vehicles instead of Gardner,which were less powerful,more expensive (on top of which there was
a big surcharge),and commercial vehicle sales people were under pressure to sell vehicles that were NOT Gardner powered.Engines by Volvo,Scania,â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â
had also begun to match,or better,Gardner engines for economy,durability and realiability.
As if all the above factors were not enough,Gardner at long last,in 1984,came out with a new
engine range that could match Scania,â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â power in all the heavyweight sectors of the market - for the medium term at least:-
5LXCT-185 (pre-production examples only).
6LXDT -270-290.
6LYT - 320-350.It was designed for 400 BHP plus.
Gardner had been taken over by Hawker Siddeley in 1977,a move that was supposed to be mutually
beneficial for both companies.But in the early 1980s the world wide business recession hit,Hawker
Siddeley had to cut costs,including development funds for Gardnerâs new engine range.
So Gardnerâs new engine range went on the market underdeveloped.Hence,some engines,and/or engine
batches,were bad and gave trouble to the operators,while other engines,and/or engine batches,
were good and gave years of reliable service.These quality control problems really damaged
Gardnerâs reputation and sales. 
A Gardner 6LYT-engined Foden broke down on the road one day,because itâs engine literally fell
to bits and pieces on the road! In contrast,Neoplan built a considerable number of 6x2 double-
decker motorcoaches that were powered by Gardner 6LYT Diesel Engines and these gave years of
trouble-free service. 
There were yet even more factors that caused Gardnerâs automotive engine market to dry up.
ERF,once one of Gardnerâs main customers,in order to maintain a competitive edge,standardised
on â â â â â â â L10,LT10 and LTA10 Engines for itâs new CP Heavy Lorry range - this policy was
maintained with the E-Series Heavy Lorry range later on.Other engines,such as the â â â â â â â NTE 350
14-litre and Gardner engines,could be fitted.But Gardner engines had a big surcharge.
The Leyland Bus Division part of Leyland Vehicles was sold off to itâs management in early 1987,but was eventually bought by Volvo in March 1988,while the Leyland Lorry Division was taken
over by Daf in 1987. These changes in ownerships caused the Gardner engine options to be dropped
from the respective lorry and bus ranges.
And the Gardner 6LXB,which was a very popular double decker bus engine,could not comply with new
emissions regulations.
Furthermore,both ERF and Seddon Atkinson had dropped Gardner engines from their engine options lists by 1990.
Hawker Siddeley sold Gardner to Perkins Engines in 1986,the new engine range was revised and
certain models were re-designated,but,alas,sales of Gardner engines did not improve and Dennis
and Foden were probably the last customers of Gardner Automotive Diesel Engines,production of
which ceased in 1994.Gardner then concentrated on what was left of itâs Marine Engine business,but production of these engines stopped in 1998 or so.Gardner had pulled out of itâs
rail vehicle engine business years earlier.
Perkins sold Gardner to the Texas Group,of Manchester,in 1995 and the business and ownership
side became complex for a time,and one of the results of this was that the Gardner engine business was sold and continued to produced marine engines until 1998.A new company,Gardner
Avon,was formed to produce,1.Gardner engine spare parts,2.Remanufactured parts,3.Precision-built
components,such as gears,etc for automotive and aerospace items,4.Components for Avon Transmissions.Other projects involved remanufacturing Gardner,Leyland,Mercedes-Benz Engines,
Voith,ZF,Allison Transmissions and Aston Martin and Roll-Royce Motorcar Engines.
According to this Website,Gardner Avon has now gone out of business:-
companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/gardner-avon
Two spin-off firms from the original company are still in existence. Gardner Marine Diesels [1] overhauls, re-manufactures and installs a wide range of marine-spec Gardners and both they and Walsh Engineering [2] supply genuine Gardner engine parts for all types of Gardner engines worldwide. Another firm, Marine Power Services.[3] specialise in the restoration and marinisation of Gardners for the inland waterways and the manufacture of component castings incl LW range exhaust, intake and water manifolds. Another firm, Gardner Enthusiast Ltd, manufactures piston rings, engine valves and major engine castings, including marine manifolds for the 8LXB. Gardner Enthusiast Ltd also supply engine castings to Gardner Parts Ltd.[4].From WIKIPEDIA.
Marine Power Services:-
marinepowerservices.co.uk/
Walsh Engineering Ltd. Gardner Diesel Engines:-
gardnerdiesel.co.uk/profile.html
Gardner Marine Diesels:-
gardnermarine.com/
Gardner Marine Diesels Specifications:-
boatdiesel.com/Engines/Gardner/Gardner.cfm
Gardner Enthusiast Ltd:-
gardner-enthusiast.com/
Gardner Diesel Engines Ray Harrison:-
gardnerdieselengines.co.uk/index.html
Website for Gardner Diesel Engine Enthusiasts:-
gardnerengineforum.co.uk/Contact.html
It has to be said that some of this post is based on Graham Edgeâs super book on the history
of the Gardner company:-GARDNER. L.GARDNER & SONS,Legendary Engineering Excellence,a book
which I highly recommend:-
nynehead-books.co.uk/description.php?II=621
Cav551 said:âTake a step back a few years to the time of the Gardner LW the AEC AV 590 &690 and the Leyland O600 and O680. Why was it that the gaffers bought the Gardner then when they knew it was slower than the opposition?ââŚAnd so on.
Because Gardner probably produced the best quality lorry,bus and motorcoach diesel engines in
the world,which were generally more economical and more durable than other marques of engine.
Which reminds me of Ernest Thorpe Transport Ltd,Thurgoland,Sheffield:On the back panels of the cabâs of their Atkinson Tractive Units was the slogan:-
GARDNER - THE WORLDâS BEST DIESEL ENGINE.
BUT! - and itâs a very big BUT - Very many other lorry,bus and motorcoach operators didnât
give a â â â â about the above qualities of the underpowered Gardner diesel engines,so they
bought superior AECâs,Leylandâs (cylinder head gasket problems or not),Foden Two Strokes (what great engines!),Rolls-Royce,â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â vehicles,Scania,Volvo,Mercedes-Benz,MAN,Renault,etc,vehicles.
Though it is true,that some operators did have a mixture of say,Gardner-engined Foden lorries and
AEC lorries,but the reason for the AECâs was either to overcome Gardner engine waiting lists and
supply problems,or the operator bought AECâs on merit and enthusiasm for the great marque! Or
more probably for both reasons.
Operators of Gardner-engined lorries,buses and motorcoaches might have been in the majority at one time - probably in the 1930s and 1940s - but these operators would turn in to a minority,as
more and more operators bought commercial vehicles that were NOT Gardner-engined,because of the
objective facts in this post,my other posts on Gardner Engines,certain posts by other members
and Graham Edgeâs great bookâŚin fact,operators of new Gardner-engined vehicles became
extinct!
I do actually admire Gardner Diesel Engines for their qualities,precision engineering,their
internal and external mechanical beauty and the sounds that they make,and I would even
preserve some historic Gardner-engined motor vehicles.
But,as a lorry and/or bus and/or motorcoach operator I would not have had underpowered Gardner-engined vehicles in my fleet.
Finally,in regard to the thermal efficiency of Gardner engines:The 6LXB 180âs was 40%.
But other automotive diesel engine manufacturers overtook this figure,and Iâm sure that when the Volvo FH Heavy Lorry Range was introduced in 1993,Pat Kennett wrote an article in the TRUCK
Magazine which stated that Volvo had achieved a thermal effiency of 50% with the engine in the
then new FH12.
VALKYRIE.
.As Iâve said I think their idea was leave it because we donât know what weâll find (or more like we do know and itâs not worth spending the time and money on it) and who cares if/when it lets go anyway good riddance. 
What a poxy job that is too, not only a flush out job, but also, because they fail gradually, a lot of oil has been flowing around the cooling system, so you really needed to replace all the rubber hoses too, as the oil weakens them and you end up replacing them one by one anyway 
