one of the massive downfalls of learning is that apart from the black and white rules, there are no real ‘case studies’ on working time directive. I know this has come up a few times, in various guises, but…
I’ve researched a bunch, looked on here, and think i get it.
Heres the scenario.
I work 40 hours a week Mon-Friday in an architectural job.
I have gained some C1 (7.5t) driving work at weekends.
So as not to exceed my average 48 WTD week, I will work every other Saturday.
IF i was to work (lets say) 12 hours on the Saturday finishing at 6pm, I would have worked 52 hours that week.
This leaves me 6 Hours rest Saturday + 24 Hours rest Sunday - 30 Hours
Meaning I owe 15 hours back within 3 weeks
By finishing at 4pm in my normal job the following week, I have
= 56 hours. - 15+ 45 is 60, so im short 4 hours. Can i include the Monday morning till 9am (normal work start time) as rest? so im actually over 5 hours?
Is this legit? or have i completely messed this up?
Exactly what ROG said, also you are totally mixing wtd and driver’s hours rules. There is no compensation policy under wtd, that only applies to weekly rest. In that case yes you would include all of Monday morning too until you start work.
= 56 hours. - 15+ 45 is 60, so im short 4 hours. Can i include the Monday morning till 9am (normal work start time) as rest? so im actually over 5 hours?
Is this legit? or have i completely messed this up?
You seem to be confusing the average 48 hour week and the 60 hour maximum working time per week with the weekly rest period rules.
In your situation you can forget about the 48 hour average week for now because you won’t reach those hours.
For the WTD the working hours you do in your usual job don’t count towards the average 48 hour week as a HGV driver, although the driving job hours will count towards the average 48 hour week in your usual job you can opt out of that so it’s irrelevant.
For the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 you cannot do more than 60 hours working time in any week, although this will include both jobs you’re talking about working a total of less than 52 hours a week so again it’s irrelevant to your situation for now.
As far as weekly rest periods are concerned, in your situation your weekly rest period starts when you finish work on the last shift of the week and ends when you restart work the following Monday.
If you finish a driving shift at 18:00 Saturday and restart work in your usual job at 09:00 Monday you will have had a 39 hour reduced weekly rest period, this leaves you just 6 hours compensation to pay back.
The following week your rest will begin at 16:00 Friday and end at 09:00 Monday giving you a rest period of 65 hours.
That’s the long answer
The short answer is, “yes, the 9 hours rest on Monday morning is part of your weekly rest period”
edit: Just to add that the reason you will only work every second Saturday is not to comply with the WTD average 48 hours, you can only legally work every second Saturday to comply with the HGV drivers hours weekly rest requirement, which states that you must have a regular 45 hour weekly rest period every second week
For the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 you cannot do more than 60 hours working time in any week, although this will include both jobs :
For the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 you cannot do more than 60 hours working time in any week, although this will include both jobs :
For the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 you cannot do more than 60 hours working time in any week, although this will include both jobs :
Is that right?
No it’s not correct, I’ve no idea what I was thinking of
For the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 you cannot do more than 60 hours working time in any week, although this will include both jobs :
Is that right?
No it’s not correct, I’ve no idea what I was thinking of
Like me - I think you like to post on an open forum as we are all human and make errors from time to time
ROG:
Non driving job is under standard WTD
Driving job is under drivers WTD
The two do not get added together
That just leaves the rest regs to be concerned about
I looked into this before and the answer that I came up with was that a driver should be declaring his/her other work to the employer he/she drives for, be it an agency or direct. If you think it through logically, it would make a mockery of the rules to be able to break the 60 hour week or 48 hour average.
Just looking at a handbook I had for an agency as an example, it mentions the responsibility of the worker to update the agency on work done for other employers. It goes on to say that if the result of not declaring hours is that you end up breaking the RT(WT)R, then this can amount to a criminal offence, which can be subject to a fine of up to £5000.
If you drive, then your employer probably will have it written in the contract somewhere, that you must declare other work. This puts the onus on the driver. In practical terms, it is difficult to imagine a scenario where it would be found out, but if there was an investigation for whatever reason (possibly falling asleep at the wheel), you can bet your bottom dollar that no stone would be left unturned.
I am aware that ROG says the totals for the two jobs don’t add up, but I would respectfully disagree (not here to necessarily be popular).
ROG:
Non driving job is under standard WTD
Driving job is under drivers WTD
The two do not get added together
That just leaves the rest regs to be concerned about
I looked into this before and the answer that I came up with was that a driver should be declaring his/her other work to the employer he/she drives for, be it an agency or direct. If you think it through logically, it would make a mockery of the rules to be able to break the 60 hour week or 48 hour average.
Just looking at a handbook I had for an agency as an example, it mentions the responsibility of the worker to update the agency on work done for other employers. It goes on to say that if the result of not declaring hours is that you end up breaking the RT(WT)R, then this can amount to a criminal offence, which can be subject to a fine of up to £5000.
If you drive, then your employer probably will have it written in the contract somewhere, that you must declare other work. This puts the onus on the driver. In practical terms, it is difficult to imagine a scenario where it would be found out, but if there was an investigation for whatever reason (possibly falling asleep at the wheel), you can bet your bottom dollar that no stone would be left unturned.
I am aware that ROG says the totals for the two jobs don’t add up, but I would respectfully disagree (not here to necessarily be popular).
If someone can find the section in either of these documents which supports Rog’s statement, I’d be interested to read it.
As for the line I’ve put into bold, that is already the rule, you must declare in writing, all other employment to your main employer, whether transport related or not.
Zac_A:
If someone can find the section in either of these documents which supports Rog’s statement, I’d be interested to read it.
“mobile worker” means any worker forming part of the travelling staff, including trainees and
apprentices, who is in the service of an undertaking which operates transport services for
passengers or goods by road for hire or reward or on its own account;
“working time” means the time from the beginning to the end of work during which the
mobile worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of his employer and exercising his functions or activities, being
(a) time devoted to all road transport activities, including, in particular—
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking from the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of the vehicle, its cargo and passengers
or to fulfil the legal or regulatory obligations directly linked to the specific transport
operation under way, including monitoring of loading and unloading and dealing
with administrative formalities with police, customs, immigration officers and
others; or
(b) time during which the mobile worker cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to
be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work, with certain tasks associated with
being on duty, in particular during periods awaiting loading or unloading where their
foreseeable duration is not known in advance, that is to say either before departure or just
before the actual start of the period in question, or under collective agreements or
workforce agreements;
Road Transport (Working Time) Guidance (Archived):
Time spent working for employers other than those who are transport undertakings is not
counted as “working time” under the Regulations. However, both workers and employers
should be aware that such work will impact on the EU drivers’ hours rules. It must be
recorded and cannot take place during any period relied upon as a “break” or “rest” for
the purposes of the EU drivers’ hours rules.
ROG:
Non driving job is under standard WTD
Driving job is under drivers WTD
The two do not get added together
That just leaves the rest regs to be concerned about
I looked into this before and the answer that I came up with was that a driver should be declaring his/her other work to the employer he/she drives for, be it an agency or direct.
Declaring work done for another employer outside of the transport industry isn’t the same as that work counting towards the RT(WT)R 2005
Just looking at a handbook I had for an agency as an example
I’m not getting involved in a debate about what an agency has written, agencies are notoriously full of crap
Fair enough, but I think it’s very misleading for an inexperienced driver to simply be told “the two do not get added together”, which could lead to the assumption that this occasional driver could max out the working time in both occupations. Far better to give some simpler guidelines about getting a full weekly rest in at least every second weekend.
Thanks for providing the guidance / commentary. It does appear to be government guidance, so one would hope it is correct, but at the same time it is still an interpretation.
I do prefer to go to the legislation directly and see what can be garnered from that. I suppose also case law escalated to a high enough court to make a precedent would be relevant.
The passage I read from the legislation was:
"11. An employer of a mobile worker shall (a)request from each mobile worker details of any time worked by that worker for another employer; (b)include time worked for another employer in the calculation of the mobile worker’s working time;"
(NB, which can be ready in context using the links provided above)
My interpretation was that all work counts for the total working time and average working time (taking the above literally). My take was that the 6 hour rule and the rules on total amount of break in a day obviously wouldn’t apply to days where no mobile worker activities were undertaken.
I do also appreciate the definitions section where working time does appear to be limited to mobile worker activities.
In summary, I can’t tell definitively either way what is correct.
