Ok, a bit of background first, I have been involved in a campaign to stop a road trial that was in my opinion very badly thought out and even worse was implemented under false pretences to protect an ancient monument. (This turned out not to be the case) The trial is now going to be abandoned thanks to a strong revolt by locals and the county council intervening.
We have a tower in Canterbury that for the past 700? years been used as a gateway into our City, it isn’t particularly suited to large vehicles and in fact modern coaches with their wider mirrors cannot fit through the arch but our local buses can and have done for many years, however the recent traffic trial supported by our local (Stagecoach) bus company created a diversion and for the last 10 months they have been able to go around the structure at great cost to the rest of the ring road traffic, they are now saying (and this is why I am posting this in here) that because they have to fold in one of their mirrors to go through the arch it is illegal and in their words “when the trial goes back in April drivers of existing buses “could be committing an offence” if they fold in wing mirrors to pass through the towers.”
I have never heard such a thing so could anyone shed any “legal” light on this? I think they are just making this up and want the towers closed so they get an extra bus lane,What does our legal team say?
TTBOMK there is nothing in the Con & Use Regulations that would make folding the mirror(s) in while negotiating a tight gap illegal. Surely that is one of the main reasons for having them? (the other one being so they can be tucked away when parked).
Why not phone Vosa up i’m sure they’ll help you out if they could or point you in the right direction.
Jimti, how many bus companies are in your city ? Is stagecoach the only one? If there are others are they having a problem?
Can you clarify when you say they never had a problem before, who didn’t ? Who does now?
Mike-C:
Jimti, how many bus companies are in your city ? Is stagecoach the only one? If there are others are they having a problem?
Can you clarify when you say they never had a problem before, who didn’t ? Who does now?
We only have one bus company and they were always able to go through the towers in the past but since it was closed for a year long trial which caused so much traffic problems it has failed they are now saying that they cannot go through without breaking the law. The real problem is they have ordered a load of new wider buses that just will not fit and they are trying this ploy to try to keep the towers shut as it would mean the traffic control in place today where they go around the towers would stay and in the future their new buses would still be able to cover the route. My thoughts are they are working along side the local council who put in the traffic order and have sweetened the pot for them to try to keep the towers shut despite the general public because they have made a huge error in getting the new buses. Our local council want the trial to stay against huge opposition from locals. This is the same council who just recently appointed a drink driver to the post of Transport adviser for the area. They don’t arrive for another couple of years so the old buses can still go through the towers as they did before even though the bus company are now saying it would be illegal.
u need a bulldozer i recommend caterpiller d9 
just an update, the bus company are still claiming this is a law that is coming out and are saying it is a directive from the EU, I wouldn’t think we could follow an EU directive regarding C&U as every country has differing regulations. I have been invited onto the steering group of the local council and really need to know I am on solid ground here, the bus company are saying they have a top transport lawyer who has said it would be illegal for them to fold the mirrors in because it could result in them hitting the towers and would be driving with undue care and attention, I have copied the C&U regs to them (bus company) and asked them to clarify which part might contain what they are saying, but obviously I am getting no replies. VOSA just say they have never heard of any new rules or laws that would make this illegal but won’t commit more than that. I really need to prove that the bus company are making this up but don’t know how to go about it, if anyone has a definitive answer that refers to any legislation I would be really grateful if you could point me towards it. Thank you for taking the time to read this. I only have until Tuesday evening to try to get them kicked off the steering group and if I fail then it doesn’t bode well for our City.
The problem you have is that you’re trying to prove that something isn’t in the rules, which isn’t easy to do unless you can quote every single line of legislation to them. The onus should be on them to show definitively which bit of legislation says they cannot fold a mirror in.
Paul
repton:
The problem you have is that you’re trying to prove that something isn’t in the rules, which isn’t easy to do unless you can quote every single line of legislation to them. The onus should be on them to show definitively which bit of legislation says they cannot fold a mirror in.Paul
With Paul on this because if something is not allowed then it will be stated but if something is allowed then it will not be mentioned
That’s pretty much how I figured it TBH, but just hopped there was a way to do it. I have challenged the boss in the local papers to prove his argument now with an offer of £100 to his chosen charity if he can. Time will tell!
jimti:
just an update, the bus company are still claiming this is a law that is coming out and are saying it is a directive from the EU, I wouldn’t think we could follow an EU directive regarding C&U as every country has differing regulations. I have been invited onto the steering group of the local council and really need to know I am on solid ground here, the bus company are saying they have a top transport lawyer who has said it would be illegal for them to fold the mirrors in because it could result in them hitting the towers and would be driving with undue care and attention, I have copied the C&U regs to them (bus company) and asked them to clarify which part might contain what they are saying, but obviously I am getting no replies. VOSA just say they have never heard of any new rules or laws that would make this illegal but won’t commit more than that. I really need to prove that the bus company are making this up but don’t know how to go about it, if anyone has a definitive answer that refers to any legislation I would be really grateful if you could point me towards it. Thank you for taking the time to read this. I only have until Tuesday evening to try to get them kicked off the steering group and if I fail then it doesn’t bode well for our City.
I can’t see this going well for you. C&U regs say you need to fit and use mirrors. You can’t then advocate not using them for the duration of the tunnel? Any risk assesment would should a risk in driving with a mirror folded in, no matter how small the risk is. There is a safer alternative option to folding a mirror in. Thats the option they’ll take. There’s pics on google street view of a single decker going through one of the tunnels there (if i’m looking at the right one) and it does look tight, and a bit long?
This is an arch, not a tunnel and the distance that the mirror needs to be folded in for is only about 30 inches
jimti:
This is an arch, not a tunnel and the distance that the mirror needs to be folded in for is only about 30 inches
Fair enough, i’m looking at the wrong one.
goo.gl/maps/vHYOE
it is just a short section of the first part of the arch that is narrow, the rest has loads of room.
Not sure I’d want to schedule a bus route in which you needed to fold your mirrors in.
Narrower buses perhaps may have been a better idea but that’s a business decision by them.
Not sure whether their ability to pass through will affect other traffic? Or are they lobbying to close it completely to all traffic? Seems a bit unfair to car drivers who presumably will suffer a detour.
jimti:
Google Maps
it is just a short section of the first part of the arch that is narrow, the rest has loads of room.
Thats exactly the arch i looked at. Try it from a different angle and you will see the single decker going through.
basically buses have been running through the towers for as long as I can remember and have always folded their mirror in to pass the very short narrow section however from what we have been told they will be replacing the current buses with slightly wider ones and they are now saying the reason they cannot go through the towers is because it would be an offence to move forwards with the mirror folded in.
Canterbury City council held a year long trial that closed the towers so that the buses could have a contraflow system controlled by lights thus displacing a huge % of the Cities traffic in one of the busiest areas this forms part of the cities ring road. The trial was a complete failure and the County council had to step in to get it stopped. The local council were unhappy with the decision and are now forming a steering group to work out what the permanent solution will be, this group is made up mainly of the same people who closed the towers to begin with so the likelihood is they will try to do the same, I am in a group that has been given one seat on the steering group and am trying to blow this argument out of the water.
The council used the argument that pollution levels were high along part of the closed route before the trial and used that as an excuse to try to keep it in place, but as they left their monitoring equipment there after the trial it is now showing that there was no problem anyway, however in other parts of the City where the displaced traffic was forced to go we exceeded the EU regulations.
I don’t know how to calculate the costs of congestion, but feel sure it would be far higher than the extra cost of getting buses made to suit our City, the bus company already gets subsidised to the tune of £15 million and are failing to run a good service. Again the County council have stepped in and will be providing hopper buses free of charge for a while, but as this isn’t likely to be a permanent solution.
Ian G:
Not sure I’d want to schedule a bus route in which you needed to fold your mirrors in.
They have done for as long as I can remember
Ian G:
Narrower buses perhaps may have been a better idea but that’s a business decision by them.
We have suggested that but they say it is too expensive
Ian G:
Not sure whether their ability to pass through will affect other traffic? Or are they lobbying to close it completely to all traffic? Seems a bit unfair to car drivers who presumably will suffer a detour.
They are expecting it to be closed completely, the only alternative route for all the traffic goes an extra 3/4 mile which was stop start for the duration of the trial and saw air quality levels breach EU regulations plus the route crosses a level crossing that is shut for 20 minutes in the hour. 10 minute journeys were taking up in excess of 45 minutes for most of the day.
What your suggesting is common sense. However in this day and age common sense is not allowed any more. Can the mirrors on the new buses even be folded in? Just get a stonemason in to relieve the arch slightly…