Fings Ain`t What They Used To Be

OUT OF HOURS BULLY'S TRUCKSTOP BAR (INTERACTIVE)
21

Rjan:

UKtramp:
People complain and reminisce how great the good old days were. Well if you look back you would remember, black and white TVs, long hard work, no health and safety. Not many could afford a car, people died at younger ages, poor health care. Terraced accommodation, two families living in one house, poverty, poor schooling, less choices, civil wars and world wars. The list is endless, we have never had it so good. It is now that we have become so accustomed to softer living that we have to complain and moan over the slightest thing that is not up to our expectations. In the “old days” we didn’t complain, we simply got on with it.

And look at where that got us. Workers wages kept up with inflation even in the 1970s, nowadays they’re falling in real terms.

Only a fool thinks that mobile phones or colour TVs fully makes up for being unable to afford a place to live, raise your kids, or have a pension in old age.

If your simply talking in monetary terms, then wages did keep up with inflation more than now. However you still have a good standard of living if not better now. Just less surplus money to fritter.

22

albion:
I think Adonis must be a neighbour. My house is a 3 bed semi, end of the road so a big garden, stand alone brick garage, kitchen and bathroom around 2,year old, New roof and windows, worth around 160k. Plenty of two bed trad. Terraces for 80k. 15 miles from Chester, Warrington, Liverpool, 30 miles from Manchester, so plenty of job opportunities.

It’s a huge difference up here to the South and that’s part of the problem that everywhere is so London centric.

Jobs maybe tough for school leavers, but when I left school there were 3,million unemployed, so not what I would call easy and plenty of low pay, going nowhere jobs.

Part of what people hanker for, I think, when they look back to the good old days , is stabity, or the perception of stability. We are far more rootless, we move or are supposed to move for work, and its seen as a positive to do so. But by doing that you leave family and community behind that give you a solid foundation. All well and good if you are a high flyer on the trading floor, but if you work in a shop, or you drive a truck, you lose a support system. Your mum isn’t there to pick the kids up from school so one of you has to take a part time job or pay for after school. Your dad isn’t there to help you decorate/ fix the plumbing so you get someone in. When you are I’ll you manage on your own because your new mates you don’t know well enough for them to help you out .

And all the current political uncertainties, NK. And Trump, Brexit, will we have a job or will the robots do it all, leads to even more feelings of instability.

Or the politicians can just belt up and reimpose stability. Their current economic policies are poverty and instability for the masses.

All that changed between 1939 and 1945, was that people woke up and voted for a real Labour government - one based on extensive nationalisation, public provision, and guaranteed rights to basics like secure jobs, housing, etc.

Even Winston Churchill was against the so-called sweated trades and day labour, of men standing on the dock every day to see if they had work or not. That’s all the “gig economy” is - nothing new, just a failure of workers to confront old familiar evils.

23

The 50+ ruined this country, from their golden pensions down to their £20k homes from right to buy. It’s not a case of getting of your backside and working nowadays, you could work all the hours god sends and still not get half of what that generation of people got.

24

I read a story of a fireman who said he bought his house in London in the early 70’s for £3000, his salary was £1000 a year and he had to put £500 deposit down for the house…

now the same house costs £600,000 so for someone to do the same as he did they would need to be earning £200,000 a year and put down £100,000 deposit and you wonder why people can’t afford a house these days !! :open_mouth:

i have 3 kids myself ( the oldest being 11 ) and i worry about them being able to get a job and afford a house when its time to do so :frowning:

oh and i live no where near London !!

25

UKtramp:

Rjan:
Indeed, but once upon a time older workers and parents would have educated their children better, and indeed prevented such exploitation.

My point exactly, if your not happy in something, then bloody well do something about it. I put all of my children through good education so they do not have to complain or be exploited. We are not living in a third world country in England. There are ample opportunities to better yourself, get off your backside and change your life, no one will do it for you. We are now a generation of moaning lazy pratts who are willing to do nothing and why we are flooded with citizens from the EE community who have traveled here to take the jobs to better their lives. You should look at them as examples of commitment, they don’t moan, they roll up their sleeves and get on with it.

On the contrary, the EEs I know or have met are mostly working ■■■■ jobs for crap pay.

Some are returning home, some are becoming hardened to their lot but in a way that is not good for civil society (basically adopting the attitudes of the lumpenproletariat - the hardened attitude of thieves, beggars, whores, and similar).

Some are sustained on unlikely aspirations for the future that wouldn’t be sustained if they had originated in Britain, others intend to return home with wages or savings that are worth relatively more abroad, some are just treating it as an extended holiday and experience.

What your bootstrapping lecture fails to appreciate is that only the exceptional can ever outdo the general conditions of the country, by pushing the less exceptional down into the mire. The general conditions of this country, in terms of wages or the basics of life, are dire and deteriorating year after year, not improving.

26

ItsJoe:
The 50+ ruined this country, from their golden pensions down to their £20k homes from right to buy. It’s not a case of getting of your backside and working nowadays, you could work all the hours god sends and still not get half of what that generation of people got.

I’m 53, there were three million unemployed when I left school. I have never had a golden pension, the one I have has come from money I put in myself. You can get a bed flat 5 minutes walk down the road from me for 60k. I got offered places at university, but couldn’t afford to go simply because my family needed me to work. Some things were better then, some things are better now. I was in my 40s before I got an above average wage, for many years if there had been a NMW it would have been a significant step up for me.

Pitting.g generations against each other is pointless.

27

ItsJoe:
The 50+ ruined this country, from their golden pensions down to their £20k homes from right to buy. It’s not a case of getting of your backside and working nowadays, you could work all the hours god sends and still not get half of what that generation of people got.

You’re avin a larf.

You mean same generation that supports the Blairite dream of weak unions,de industrialisation,global free market economics,pro EU and pro immigration,which effectively means Brit jobs and housing for foreign workers and an over supplied labour market.All creating a stagnant wage environment,low tax revenues,with the lose lose of high demand for housing and social provision. :unamused:

While as a 58 year old I left school into the economic zb storm of the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.All of which saw my job security and earning potential devastated during the most important years of my working life.While my so called ‘Golden Pension’ actually translated as going out of the job before my 50’s on medical grounds luckily based on the,still anything but generous,private income protection provision which I’d insured myself for.Having also long ago had to abandon my private pension provision contributions on the grounds of affordability with my so called ‘Golden’ pension payout to match ( around £20 per month ). :unamused:

As for my earnings the best they ever got was around £7.50 per hour for permanent nights and a lot less than that during the years I had to work as a council driver through the early 1980’s ‘recession’ ( read transfer of UK industry to Germany ),you know the one which put over 3 million of the workforce on the dole.All that resulting in the fact that I still to this day live in the parental house.Does that mean I went whining and whinging to the local council,to wipe out what remains of the local greenbelt,to build me a low cost house.With a built in profit margin for me to flog on to the next mug.No.

IE Many of the young generation are just a bunch of selfish, whining,whingeing,greed driven zb’s,with serious self entitlement issues.Wanting to blame everyone else but the themselves and their own voting habits,for their own problems.

When they need to learn that there’s no such thing as a free lunch and whatever advances the working class have made have always meant standing together,young and old,in strong unions and fighting for them.Which includes the idea of British jobs for British workers.

Not voting like turkeys voting for Christmas for people like Blair and now Corbyn and blaming the older generations for their self inflicted problems. :imp:

28

Rjan:
On the contrary, the EEs I know or have met are mostly working [zb] jobs for crap pay.

Crap pay to you but not for them, as soon as the crap pay becomes crap pay for them they will go back home. You however will still be sat on an internet forum complaining about how hard done to you are. Life is good for me, but then I don’t complain, I get my life in the direction I want it to go in. If I am not happy with something, I will do whatever it takes to turn that around. I was not in a privileged position when I started my own business up, I didn’t expect anyone to bale me out when it went ■■■■ up, I picked myself up, dusted myself down and moved on, I went on to start another business that was successful. The problem today isn’t to do with conditions and low pay, its to do with you accepting them.

29

albion:

ItsJoe:
The 50+ ruined this country, from their golden pensions down to their £20k homes from right to buy. It’s not a case of getting of your backside and working nowadays, you could work all the hours god sends and still not get half of what that generation of people got.

I’m 53, there were three million unemployed when I left school. I have never had a golden pension, the one I have has come from money I put in myself. You can get a bed flat 5 minutes walk down the road from me for 60k. I got offered places at university, but couldn’t afford to go simply because my family needed me to work. Some things were better then, some things are better now. I was in my 40s before I got an above average wage, for many years if there had been a NMW it would have been a significant step up for me.

Pitting.g generations against each other is pointless.

My point was more back then you could actually work and achieve something with your life. I’m not saying it was all easy back then because I know it wasn’t but nowadays you can go out to work and have absolutely nothing to show for it. I know drivers and people in other professions that can’t even put enough money away for retirement.

The right to buy scheme and gilded pensions that were given out back then have been thrown on the younger generation to pay for whilst the older generation are moaning about how things aren’t what they used to be.

30

I also had little when I was growing up in the 1960’s but what I had was treasured.

I bought my first house back in the early 1980’s for £15,000, I have just notice it go on the market for £175,000! I worked my ‘arris’ off to afford it and bring up my three children at the same time.

The ‘Hole in the wall machines’ were just starting to be installed and literally every day, I used to check my balance because EVERY penny counted. I had a pocket directory for these machines so wherever I was in the country I could keep an eye on my finances and my good lady paid the bills as ‘Efficiently’ as possible while I was away from home.

I have passed my work ethic onto my children and all three are gainfully employed but only one is on a sufficient wage to afford to buy their house, the other two I have had to ‘bailout’ in the not too distant past and luckily I have been in a position to afford to do this - read Bank of Mum and Dad!

31

Franglais:
June 2017 average house price £223k
average weekly wage £506 = about £25k p.a.
So a house costs about 9 times a year`s pay

1990 av house price £60k
pay £14k p.a.
So a house used to cost about 4 and a bit times a year`s pay.
landregistry.data.gov.uk/app/ukhpi
ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab … rkinghours

Average wages and house prices are crude tools, but Id say they reflect what lots of us see. Its NOT just the shiftless youth who can`t get up off their butts, there is a real problem out there.

What real problem? Historically low mortgage interest rates more than negate the increase in house prices.

June 2017, mortgage interest rate 2%. Mortgage repayment on a £223k house, £945 approx 43% of monthly wage.

June 1990, mortgage interest rate, 14.25%. Mortgage repayment on a £90k house, £1101, approx 94% of monthly wage.

So there you have it, proof that interest rates matter more than the price of the house. A mortgage on a £90k house in 1990 cost almost 20% more per month than a £223k house in 2017.

Care to tell me who has it worse now?

Think I’m wrong then look at this chart. The green line is the one you need to concentrate on.

32

Conor:

Franglais:
June 2017 average house price £223k
average weekly wage £506 = about £25k p.a.
So a house costs about 9 times a year`s pay

1990 av house price £60k
pay £14k p.a.
So a house used to cost about 4 and a bit times a year`s pay.
landregistry.data.gov.uk/app/ukhpi
ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab … rkinghours

Average wages and house prices are crude tools, but Id say they reflect what lots of us see. Its NOT just the shiftless youth who can`t get up off their butts, there is a real problem out there.

What real problem? Historically low mortgage interest rates more than negate the increase in house prices.

June 2017, mortgage interest rate 2%. Mortgage repayment on a £223k house, £945 approx 43% of monthly wage.

June 1990, mortgage interest rate, 14.25%. Mortgage repayment on a £90k house, £1101, approx 94% of monthly wage.

So there you have it, proof that interest rates matter more than the price of the house. A mortgage on a £90k house in 1990 cost almost 20% more per month than a £223k house in 2017.

Care to tell me who has it worse now?

Think I’m wrong then look at this chart. The green line is the one you need to concentrate on.

That chart would be relevant if you put it together with rate of borrowing and BoE interest rates. The fact is, back there was an abundance of social housing up and down the country. There were the times when you could put your name on a housing register and be given a home in less than a month with rent of £40 a week on a 3 bed. Then you could go on to buy that house down the line for pennies on todays value. That’s what messed this country up.

33

I have to agree with a number of comments, we have a culture of social media and a society that judges a person on what they own and their lifestyle not who they are and what they contribute as a whole little value is placed on being a good citizen living within you’re means and helping others.

My first step on the property ladder was £40,000 back in 93’ everything in it was saved for and paid for in cash, I didn’t have a credit card until I was 30, my income compared to today was much higher and as others have stated if you wanted to get on a bit of hard graft made that possible.

The problem today is the shortage of well paid jobs, industry has gone leaving many parts of the country with high un employment and low skilled low paid work put this together with an ever increasing population the lack of house building that people can actually afford, it can be done if you have a skill that pays and you have a work ethic its just going to be considerably harder than it was for my generation.

34

ItsJoe:

albion:

ItsJoe:
The 50+ ruined this country, from their golden pensions down to their £20k homes from right to buy. It’s not a case of getting of your backside and working nowadays, you could work all the hours god sends and still not get half of what that generation of people got.

I’m 53, there were three million unemployed when I left school. I have never had a golden pension, the one I have has come from money I put in myself. You can get a bed flat 5 minutes walk down the road from me for 60k. I got offered places at university, but couldn’t afford to go simply because my family needed me to work. Some things were better then, some things are better now. I was in my 40s before I got an above average wage, for many years if there had been a NMW it would have been a significant step up for me.

Pitting.g generations against each other is pointless.

My point was more back then you could actually work and achieve something with your life. I’m not saying it was all easy back then because I know it wasn’t but nowadays you can go out to work and have absolutely nothing to show for it. I know drivers and people in other professions that can’t even put enough money away for retirement.

The right to buy scheme and gilded pensions that were given out back then have been thrown on the younger generation to pay for whilst the older generation are moaning about how things aren’t what they used to be.

Like me he’s already pointed out to you the realities of the early 1980’s economy.So how the zb do you jump to the conclusion that ‘fings’ were/are any better for the over 50’s than the recent generations.When the truth is at that point in time they were a lot worse.

As for putting away enough for retirement I’m not even entitled to a state pension having put in more than my fair share in the form of single person’s tax rates over my around 25 years of work.

As for the ‘right to buy scheme’.What ‘right to buy’ scheme for the average single teenage/20’s worker,if they were lucky enough to even have a job,living in a private sector mortgaged parental home and contributing to its household budget payments accordingly.Then as now social housing was based on the typically Socialist ideal of everyone is equal but some are more equal ( worthy ) than others.Which translated as social housing for those who knew how and/or wanted to play that system in which you had to be in the social housing system to get on that greed driven band wagon of socialists doing what they do best.In the form of something for nothing socialism when it suits them and Thatcher’s corrupted version of capitalism when it didn’t,when it came to cashing in by flogging off their state funded get rich quick asset handout,in the private sector.While calling those standing together for the wages to pay for their own housing at market values in the private sector, ‘militants’. :unamused:

On that note ironically your self entitled,something for nothing,ageist,Corbynite bs is no different to the actions of those then taking advantage of the social housing system for their own selfish advantage.When the fact is if you want decent housing ( and not the high density socialist idea of cheap ‘housing’ ) you have to pay the going market rate for it and if the wages aren’t enough to cover it then you have to stand together in the form of unions to increase them.The same applies to retirement provision affordability.While you won’t be able to do that by exporting jobs and importing labour to rig the labour market in favour of the employers.Nor by falling for the establishment divide and rule tactics of blaming your elders for that situation.Many of us having lived through harder economic times in that regard. :unamused:

35

mike68:
My first step on the property ladder was £40,000

Ironically the ‘property ladder’ is all part of the something for nothing culture that adds to the house price inflation spiral.By definition it means trading up to a better house at the expense of the next buyer who by definition will often be a first time buyer.On that note when first time buyers are saying that they want ‘affordable’ housing what they actually mean is something provided at below market value with a inbuilt profit margin which they can then use to offset the cost of a move up to something much better of higher value at no extra expense to themselves.Often also at the expense of existing residents in the area who’s previously nice areas are turned into more urbanised higher density therefore lower quality areas.In which everyone then loses out and wants to then move away from often then ending up as low value immigrant populated ghettoes.So London’s expansion goes on. :bulb: :frowning:

36

Rjan:

Adonis.:

Rjan:

Adonis.:
and miss out the entry level crap

The thing is there is no entry level crap. What you’re referring to is permanent crap - entire crap firms with only crap jobs.

It’s not like an apprenticeship where you’re truly being skilled and moulded by a reputable firm, and you spend at most a couple of your teenage years on poor pay and doing some of the simpler drudge work, but get genuine skills and a rock solid career out of it.

The last time I bumped into someone in this game who’d been through one of these driving apprenticeships, he was expressing his desire to leave the industry! :laughing:

I wasn’t really referring to driving, more just in general. People leaving school with a couple of A levels or Uni with a degree in Media Studies expecting to walking in to managerial positions (scarily some do) without ever having done a crap job like hospitality or bottom of the rung in their chosen career.

Because to aspire to anything less nowadays is to aspire to poverty and insecure work. Certainly graduates 30 years ago wouldn’t have expected to go into anything less than a managerial position - why on earth would you if you’d already spent all those extra years learning?

Frankly you just sound out of touch when you complain that, yes, workers want a wage they can live on!

I’m out of touch but you’re the one who says that if you don’t go to university you’re aspiring to poverty? :unamused:

I’m probably more in touch than anyone else here, being 23, with a mortgage, a car and go to a job everyday that I enjoy. I’ve worked since I was 13, left school at 16 and do considerably better than almost all my peers.

You can live on less than the NMW, people need to remember that you don’t need smart phones, tv’s, 2 takeaways a week, 2 holidays a year and a new car every 3 to live.

A.

37

Conor:

Franglais:
June 2017 average house price £223k
average weekly wage £506 = about £25k p.a.
So a house costs about 9 times a year`s pay

1990 av house price £60k
pay £14k p.a.
So a house used to cost about 4 and a bit times a year`s pay.
landregistry.data.gov.uk/app/ukhpi
ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab … rkinghours

Average wages and house prices are crude tools, but Id say they reflect what lots of us see. Its NOT just the shiftless youth who can`t get up off their butts, there is a real problem out there.

What real problem? Historically low mortgage interest rates more than negate the increase in house prices.

June 2017, mortgage interest rate 2%. Mortgage repayment on a £223k house, £945 approx 43% of monthly wage.

June 1990, mortgage interest rate, 14.25%. Mortgage repayment on a £90k house, £1101, approx 94% of monthly wage.

So there you have it, proof that interest rates matter more than the price of the house. A mortgage on a £90k house in 1990 cost almost 20% more per month than a £223k house in 2017.

Care to tell me who has it worse now?

Think I’m wrong then look at this chart. The green line is the one you need to concentrate on.

As you say record low interest rates at the moment. Will that state continue? Can you bet on those rates staying that low?
Look at fixed term repayment mortgages currently on offer. A fixed term of ten years costs about 6%. That will give a monthly repayment of £1437.

38

No, things aint wot they used to be, i don’t have to work 60 hours a week in my main job then go fixing other people’s cars at evenings and weekends, nor do i need to drive taxis Sat and Sun nights as well, to have enough money to raise a family and pay all the bills, this was working mans lot at one time.

No flash cars either, used to buy cars needing work cheaply.

No golden pensions here, most working class people never got one though for some reason the youngsters have to keep telling us we do (as well as everything else being our fault), the index linked pensions were the preserve of the jobs for life civil service (course MP’s make sure they and the ■■■■ takers next door in the Lords are laughing all the way to the bank) and those lucky few who managed to get onto decent large companies who had final salary schemes.

The elephant in the room is immigration, the shortage of houses and overpricing of those available is due to this reason more than any other.

If the electorate keep voting in people who always betray them :unamused: , as they have been doing since around 1997 edit, scratch that they’ve been voting for traitors since i first voted NO in the 1975 referendum on the Common Market, then they really can’t complain when they end up with what they voted for.
Doing the same thing time after time but expecting a different result when all the evidence is there for you is the very definition of madness.

There are lots of youngsters out there doing well, dare say they had realistic expectations of what life would be like, expecting to work bloody hard to make a better life.

39

mike68:
I have to agree with a number of comments, we have a culture of social media and a society that judges a person on what they own and their lifestyle not who they are and what they contribute as a whole little value is placed on being a good citizen living within you’re means and helping others.

My first step on the property ladder was £40,000 back in 93’ everything in it was saved for and paid for in cash, I didn’t have a credit card until I was 30, my income compared to today was much higher and as others have stated if you wanted to get on a bit of hard graft made that possible.

The problem today is the shortage of well paid jobs, industry has gone leaving many parts of the country with high un employment and low skilled low paid work put this together with an ever increasing population the lack of house building that people can actually afford, it can be done if you have a skill that pays and you have a work ethic its just going to be considerably harder than it was for my generation.

Good post! It isn’t just things, there are experiences to be had. Often abroad. Mostly expensive.

I have two lads been with me around 4 years. Started age 23 and 24 and they earned 39k in their first year. Ask them where their money goes and they have no idea, well unless you count spending £100.00+ on a night out :open_mouth: I’ve tried suggesting that they pretend they only get 30k a year and save some. But they are grown men, it’s up to them.

40

Carryfast:

ItsJoe:

albion:

ItsJoe:
The 50+ ruined this country, from their golden pensions down to their £20k homes from right to buy. It’s not a case of getting of your backside and working nowadays, you could work all the hours god sends and still not get half of what that generation of people got.

I’m 53, there were three million unemployed when I left school. I have never had a golden pension, the one I have has come from money I put in myself. You can get a bed flat 5 minutes walk down the road from me for 60k. I got offered places at university, but couldn’t afford to go simply because my family needed me to work. Some things were better then, some things are better now. I was in my 40s before I got an above average wage, for many years if there had been a NMW it would have been a significant step up for me.

Pitting.g generations against each other is pointless.

My point was more back then you could actually work and achieve something with your life. I’m not saying it was all easy back then because I know it wasn’t but nowadays you can go out to work and have absolutely nothing to show for it. I know drivers and people in other professions that can’t even put enough money away for retirement.

The right to buy scheme and gilded pensions that were given out back then have been thrown on the younger generation to pay for whilst the older generation are moaning about how things aren’t what they used to be.

Like me he’s already pointed out to you the realities of the early 1980’s economy.So how the zb do you jump to the conclusion that ‘fings’ were/are any better for the over 50’s than the recent generations.When the truth is at that point in time they were a lot worse.

As for putting away enough for retirement I’m not even entitled to a state pension having put in more than my fair share in the form of single person’s tax rates over my around 25 years of work.

As for the ‘right to buy scheme’.What ‘right to buy’ scheme for the average single teenage/20’s worker,if they were lucky enough to even have a job,living in a private sector mortgaged parental home and contributing to its household budget payments accordingly.Then as now social housing was based on the typically Socialist ideal of everyone is equal but some are more equal ( worthy ) than others.Which translated as social housing for those who knew how and/or wanted to play that system in which you had to be in the social housing system to get on that greed driven band wagon of socialists doing what they do best.In the form of something for nothing socialism when it suits them and Thatcher’s corrupted version of capitalism when it didn’t,when it came to cashing in by flogging off their state funded get rich quick asset handout,in the private sector.While calling those standing together for the wages to pay for their own housing at market values in the private sector, ‘militants’. :unamused:

On that note ironically your self entitled,something for nothing,ageist,Corbynite bs is no different to the actions of those then taking advantage of the social housing system for their own selfish advantage.When the fact is if you want decent housing ( and not the high density socialist idea of cheap ‘housing’ ) you have to pay the going market rate for it and if the wages aren’t enough to cover it then you have to stand together in the form of unions to increase them.The same applies to retirement provision affordability.While you won’t be able to do that by exporting jobs and importing labour to rig the labour market in favour of the employers.Nor by falling for the establishment divide and rule tactics of blaming your elders for that situation.Many of us having lived through harder economic times in that regard. :unamused:

Haha. You’re so out of touch it’s hilarious. The facts are, you can work your backside off earning £40k a year and have nothing to show for it by the time you’re 60. When throughout the 80s and 90s you could be working from 16 and own your house by 40.

You’re saying this can be solved by going into unions and “standing together” shows how truly out of touch you are. The perks of being born in the 50s and 60s are for all to see. What are the perks of being born since then? Absolutely none. We are paying for the baby boomers whilst being told to shut up and work harder.