Inspired by the discussion of European Macks on the Bernard thread, I decided to look into the plethora of different ideas the great American company had, to build lorries to suit our lovely Continent. The story appears to start here, although any information is welcome: trucksplanet.com/catalog/model.php?id=526
Well you certainly have a feel for some interesting threads Mr. Anorak. I hope these Anglo French Macks will be of interest…
According to Trucksplanet, they built 30 of those Motor Panels-cabbed F715s in 1965…Then stopped. Surely their own F700 cab would have been just as good, and more profitable for them? They bought Bernard in 1963, then launched their new European cabover tractor in 1965(?verification required) with a cab from Unic, Bernard’s competitor. Does anyone know why they engineered these duplicate products, with cabs bought in from their competitors, when perfectly serviceable items were available under their own roof? Someone cited the lack of a dealer network as the reason for their eventual failure; surely they would have been better-off throwing money at this part of the business? I’m no big-business guru, but surely…?
Sensible answers only please- anyone who shoehorns 2 stroke engines into their arguments will be horsewhipped. 
The Mack/Bernard brochures are undated which makes piecing it altogether a little trickier, but I don’t think the date of 1965 for the F715T from Trucksplanet is correct. For a start it features the Motor Panels Mark IV cab, which was launched in 1968. (The Mark IV was a 2.5 metre wide variant of Motor Panel’s Mark III cab of Seddon and Guy fame which was unveiled in 1964)
I think the chronology is more likely to be Mack engined Bernards, circa 1963/4 and the Unic cabbed Mack from 1965, culminating in the end of the Mack Bernard arrangement in 1966. The F715T I would say dates from 1968 (with confirmation from Motor Panels literature), by which time all evidence of the Bernard connection had gone, although the former trading address of the Mack-Bernard company, rue de Verdun, 92, Bagneux, remained.
I agree that the choice of the MP cab is a strange one, but Motor Panels did supply some very small volume orders in this period (for example to Argyle and Raba) so perhaps the economics of importing cabs from Coventry made financial sense against importing F700 Series paneling from the United States?
Either way we know that the F715T was not a success in terms of volume sales, and soon enough Mack F700s were being directly imported into France, later by their “exclusive importer”, The Pamax Company of Paris.
I guess that, by then, Mack had missed the boat a bit, given that most of the European builders had launched modern new products. It is a shame that they did not establish a following in Europe, not least because their failure coincided with that of Bernard. On the face of it, the two companies seemed to have what it takes, between them. Other firms, whose sales across Central Europe were small in 1950, spent the next two decades working hard to satisfy that market, and their efforts paid off in the end. Two Swedish and one Dutch, if I remember correctly…
Evening all, couple of quick points, (my Bollinger is getting warm)! The Mack EFT35 tractor is fitted with a Pelpel designed and manufactured cab, the same cab as supplied to Unic at Trappes.
The F715T, definately 1968, ugly thing is it not!! Tpts G Borca, of Paris, a long time Bernard user ran examples of each. One or two of the Pelpel ones were kicking about Paris in the mid 70s, shunting, (I presume), box vans for Frigidair. Lovely company, and rather substantial in a financial sense!!
[ZB]s first illustration is an interesting one, showing the first attempt at putting a Pelpel cab, (as on the Bernard 200/210/211 range), on a B61 Mack. The original idea,( as recounted to me over lunch in a rather nice restraunt in Rennes), was to utilise the moulded bonnet from the Alsthom powered 200 serie. However this would not fit, due to the hight of the Mack engine, hence the ungainly US B61 front was used. The designers at Noyal Sur-Vilaine, were not at all happy with the resulting “look”. Production 211s carried a modified front,4headlights, slightly different windscreen, but not as handsome as a “pure” Bernard.
When I was working in the US with “our” Midliner, I was shown a 4x2 Mack tractor, fitted with the version of the Pelpel cabover design adopted by Somua, and later Saviem,( on the JLserie). This vehicle was sent to the US for evaluation,and from what I was able to establish from people at Allentown who remembered the trials, did rather well, but was deemed to expensive as a European universal cab, which Mack at that time in the 60s, Mack were seeking to offer ,as a “more acceptable” driving enviroment than the standard US offering. Maybe this search was the opening for Motorpanels salesmen, and the creation of Europes ugliest lorry.
Now somebody tell us, those Macks with a Monkey, were they created at Barking, and did they have no connection with the US Mack, (apart from litigation)!!
I must away, but an interesting bit of history is it not? Cheerio for now.
Now I’m confused! Unic sourced their cabs from Pelpel, but they were completely different to the Pelpel cabs on the Bernards?? It still doesn’t explain why Mack chose this cab over one already supplied to their partner- what was wrong with the post-Television (that is almost a French pun) cab (Cottard?) which, in my view, was elegant and modern- certainly more so than the Unic type. Maybe cost was a factor, if…Oh sod it, I think I’ll acquire a taste for Bollinger- it will all make sense then!
Monsieur Saviem, I think you’re being a little harsh on the poor F715. Surely it was no worse to look at than some other Motor Panels adaptations- the Crusader, or the Foden S41 with its absurd snout? Or even this:
I think the Mack F715T is an odd looking beast, being as it is a hybrid between the Mack (US) F700 and the Scammell Crusader, which to me are two of the best looking trucks ever made. Beauty surely is in the eye of the beholder, and the Mack B Series with Pelpel cab at the start of this thread has “a face only its’ mother could love” in my view.
You are correct Saviem, in that the British “Macks” were constructed in Barking between 1954 and 1964, with mainly British components. As far as I know the UK concern started with American connections after the War to service ex - Military Macks, but their paths diverged thereafter. Apparently only about 20 British Macks were built.
[zb]
anorak:
Now I’m confused! Unic sourced their cabs from Pelpel, but they were completely different to the Pelpel cabs on the Bernards?? It still doesn’t explain why Mack chose this cab over one already supplied to their partner- what was wrong with the post-Television (that is almost a French pun) cab (Cottard?) which, in my view, was elegant and modern- certainly more so than the Unic type. Maybe cost was a factor, if…Oh sod it, I think I’ll acquire a taste for Bollinger- it will all make sense then!Monsieur Saviem, I think you’re being a little harsh on the poor F715. Surely it was no worse to look at than some other Motor Panels adaptations- the Crusader, or the Foden S41 with its absurd snout? Or even this:
0
Evening all,long day in the saddle, and its started raining again!! [ZB], you are a devil at putting up teasers! But first the Pelpel “mysteries”
Pelpels works were situated to the east of Rennes, at Noyal sur Villaine, in a redeveloped old ironworks. They produced beautiful coachwork for all of the French manufacturers. The same basic cab structure was used by Bernard, and Unic, (Auverne, Izoard et al), yet with the different nose treatment, did look individual to each manufacturer. The cab structure for forward control, again was "individualised by the front panel treatment. Really the best comparison is to reflect on the myriad of Motorpanels front ends, Foden, Scammell, Guy, Seddon, Argyle, FTF, Bernard-Mack, RABA. Then of course we can throw in the elegant Somua/Saviem shell, that Mack thought worthy of taking to the US to evaluate as a prefered option , for its cabovers to be sold in Europe. Incidentally, many of Bernards, (and Bernard-Mack, streamlined integral vans, 19 &26tonnes), were bodied by Bourg en Bress based Cottard, easily identified by their rearward half moon shaped side windows, and really quite some lookers.
I can only surmise that the “post television” cab, was simply too expensive to produce as an option for Macks European offerings.
[ZB], that Letourneur cab, well it takes the biscuit for ugly, does it not! Yet Letourneur et Marchand,Neuilly sur Seine, founded by Jean Arthur, and Jean Marie Letourneur-Marchand in 1905. A well respected “carrosererie”. Produced some outstanding, and classical motor car bodywork on chassis by Hotchkiss, Hispano Suiza, and Delage. Commercial bodywork was produced by their subsidiary Autobineau, and I think that there was some connection with Levalloise Perrets Paul Nee et Fils, who were still going in the 80s.
But who ordered that ugly Duckling…heaven knows!! Maybe Mack were trying to gain good press by having a “concept vehicle” bodied by a leading body builder! But one thing is certain, it sure was ugly, (I agree, even more so than the F715, but believe me in the “flesh”, that really was a horrible looker, not a patch off a scammell Crusader)!!
Richard, you are right, Parmax did become the French importer for Mack, but the most “active” operation involved with Mack post 66, up to the RVI involvement, (and post that if the truth be known), had to be Soc: MABO, of Rue de Paris, Clichy. Real Mack specialists, who lived and breathed the product, and really knew Mack Trucks, and more importantly, the spare parts side!!
Mind you some oddballs did get imported, I well remember a number of long wheelbase F Series drawbars, with the front axle right at the front. I used to see them occasionally around the Auvergne, plain white, coupled up to a 2axle drawbar. The F series prime movers were sleeper cab 6wheelers. Not the most "handleable for a camion et remorque outfit!! One day, in Michel Galliards yard I chanced on one of these being loaded, and I asked the driver how he found it to drive, his reply… “Im paid very well, because they know that no one else will even attempt to drive this US …”!! Ah well, so much for image!!
And on the subject of image, Richard you are quite right, even its creators at Pelpel could not love that B61, but they did their best to improve it, as per your 211 Bernard brochure. There were quite a few B61s running around in France even in the mid 70s, and regularly in the late 70s I would see a bright orange B61, pulling a Black Oil tank around Levallois Perret. Those Macks, they were solid lorries! I shall away to a little Bollinger, and hope that tommorow is a drier day. Cheerio for now.
Saviem:
Pelpels works were situated to the east of Rennes, at Noyal sur Villaine, in a redeveloped old ironworks. They produced beautiful coachwork for all of the French manufacturers. The same basic cab structure was used by Bernard, and Unic, (Auverne, Izoard et al), yet with the different nose treatment, did look individual to each manufacturer. The cab structure for forward control, again was "individualised by the front panel treatment. Really the best comparison is to reflect on the myriad of Motorpanels front ends, Foden, Scammell, Guy, Seddon, Argyle, FTF, Bernard-Mack, RABA. Then of course we can throw in the elegant Somua/Saviem shell, that Mack thought worthy of taking to the US to evaluate as a prefered option , for its cabovers to be sold in Europe. Incidentally, many of Bernards, (and Bernard-Mack, streamlined integral vans, 19 &26tonnes), were bodied by Bourg en Bress based Cottard, easily identified by their rearward half moon shaped side windows, and really quite some lookers.I can only surmise that the “post television” cab, was simply too expensive to produce as an option for Macks European offerings.
Thanks for more lovely insights into the world of la vielle camion.
RABA with a Motor panels cab? Blimey- I thought MAN had that job well sewn up. On that subject, do you think the wily Germans got the better part of the deal: the old D21 lump in return for Saviem’s state-of-the-art new cab? There must be more to it…
I found this picture of a Somua-cabbed Mack. I hope it is the one which fits the text:
On the subject of the “Post Television” Pelpel cab (what is its real name?), Mack/Bernard were not the only takers. I found this one on a DAF 1600:
This stuff is fascinating- the French commercial vehicle industry seems to have been a hive of activity (and creativity) during the 1950s and ‘60s. Merci beaucoup, M. Saviem.
Evening all, [ZB], yes that Mack is the very one!! Was still in Allentown in 83, (approx 20 years after the search for a “European face” for Mack), but probably a lot of water gone under “Macks” bridges by now. In the flesh, quite a handsome little girl. I wonder if some US collector owns her??
The Television cab was simply catalogued as “Le cabine Charbonneaux”, courte, et profunde. Built by G Pelpel, (and the cost of manufacture was quite enormous)! The later cab, as per the DAF, (probably a 1600, or 2000), simply catalogued as a Pelpel cabine. Often seen on DAF chassis, where the standard DAF cab had proven unacceptable to the French market. Just as an aside the registration on the bumper sitting on the ground would appear to be later than the actual vehicle itself.
Well, as regarding the Saviem/MAN deal, yes a lot more in it than at first appeared. Remember the French Government had created Saviem as a “vehicle” to preserve the manufacturing base of Renault, Floriat, Somua, and Latil. There had been the disasterous tie up with Henschel, lasting only one year! MAN bought a lot to the party, the old armament works at Limoge became the engine production unit, eventually producing the "state of the art 797, and turbo 798 serie, MAN designs. The D21 was a very competitive engine , and used by both manufacturers in its day. By the mid 70s all our heavy bogie sets were MAN designs.
What did MAN get, a lightweight range, the SG (Saviem- Gallion range), a middleweight range, the Serie J, and probably the best heavy tractor cab available in the 60s, and 70s, in the Saviem steel cab.
Saviem gained access to an export market that was vibrant in relation to the “stagnating” French market, competitive, and well engineered engines, and axle sets. Also a well engineered on / off road range of products, 4x4, 6x6, 4x2, 6x4, that were “badge engineered” as Saviem, for the domestic French market. And a guaranteed volume of product to keep our factory at Blainville at full capacity.
All in all, a good collaberation, so what spoiled the party?? IVECO!! Having owned Unic,(and it has to be said invested heavily in the Trappes manufacturing site), because of plumeting vehicle sales in France… they shut it down! Moved vehicle production to Turin, (remember at the time the KHD/IVECO tie up was failing also), and left France only with the straight 6cylinder production, now manufactured at the new plant at Bourbon Lancy.
Almost at the same time Michelin, through its sole ownership of Citroen, made it known that it could see no future for (the beomoth), Berliet, and would seek either a joint deal, or sale!!!.. Mon Dieu, no French Government could see Frances largest commercial vehicle manufacturer, and a major engineering employer, disappear into “foreign” ownership… and the same scenario as Unic prevail ,And those polite gentlemen from Volvo, had already been seen visiting Citroen!!
So the assetts of Berliet were acquired by the Regie Renault, and Saviem and Berliet wed! We all suspected that it was going to happen, when six months prior, our PDG, M Danton, issued a statement, “reafirming the Saviem/MAN relationship”, and a lot of my colleagues in Suresnes began to panic, lest they have to leave Paris, and go south to Lyon!! Me, I just sat in my little office, and hoped that I would still have a job!!
Apologies, Ive gone a long way off thread, but as so much regarding the French lorry industry, does so interrelate. Also forgive me, for in seeking to answer [ZB]s question I have only skimmed the surface of a complex relationship. But a very salient point is that Renault Vehicules Industriels new PDG, (top man), that energetic, and charismatic little Corsican, Francoise Zanotti, would have pressed the Saviem Berliet merger, firmer, and far speedier than his political masters would allow him to do, and also have taken control of Mack, far faster than he was allowed to, (and probably saved the French taxpayer trillions of Francs, and maybe even today we may, here in Britain have had a truck manufacturing facility in Dunstable)!!!
Im away for my tea, and a little light Bollinger, a big day harvesting tommorow, Cheerio for now.
I think there’s a bit of confusion here, the (Unic) cab on the french EFT models wasn’t sourced by Pelpel but by Genève, a coachbuilder that was mainly known for tipper bodies.
I belive I’ve read that when Bernard was taken over by Mack, Mack itself struggeled with a takeover attempt or merger with Chrysler. That may explain why the French enterprise may have been a bit of a half-hearted attempt in the beginning.
Welcome to the forum Barreiros- there’s a Spanish Dodge thread somewhere in here, if you’re interested. I always am! This link seems to confirm your post: forum-macchine.it/showthread.php?t=10019
It seems to me that, after the expensive-to-build Charbonneaux cab was ditched, Mack/Bernard used this Geneve/Unic cab until Pelpel launched the handsome-looking one on the DAF above then, when Bernard went pop, Mack turned to Motor Panels, in 1968. Someone please confirm or deny this- I bet Mack people back home in the US were confused by it all!
[zb]
anorak:
Welcome to the forum Barreiros- there’s a Spanish Dodge thread somewhere in here, if you’re interested. I always am! This link seems to confirm your post: forum-macchine.it/showthread.php?t=10019It seems to me that, after the expensive-to-build Charbonneaux cab was ditched, Mack/Bernard used this Geneve/Unic cab until Pelpel launched the handsome-looking one on the DAF above then, when Bernard went pop, Mack turned to Motor Panels, in 1968. Someone please confirm or deny this- I bet Mack people back home in the US were confused by it all!
Evening all, Barreiros a belated welcome!! To echo one of [ZB]s earlier comments the French industry of the 50s 60s, (and 70s), was certainly interesting!!
Barreiorss comment regarding the "Geneva cab is quite right, the bulk of the forward control Mack-Bernards produced from 1963...1967, (a total, both conventional, and cab over, and a very low volume, at that,) of less than 900 in total, were fitted with the cabin produced by Fernand Genevas company. Although in my post I was principaly concerned with the modest, (but inelegant design), involvement of my friends at Pelpel.
Now the integration of Geneva, and Bernard go well back. In fact in 1928 Eduard Bernard sold the patents of his hydraulic tipping mechanism to the coach builder Fernand Geneva. As he had decided that his company future lay with the design and building of an outstanding range of lorries that would be faithful to his aim, “that they would make his customers profit”.
Geneva produced thousands of these original hydraulic designs , from their premises at 88 Rue Fernand, Paris,right up untill the 80s, fitted to all types of chassis. However Genevas cab designs , they were many, and varied! For example, adopted by Willeme for their Oilfield "Sahara" range, (powered by their "straight eight" diesel, the model, RD615DT, and the "dumper ",LD610D. (In latter years both would acquire the option of AECs 11litre @200hp, or 13litre @230hp). Fiats C40/Son Autiel, and the Unic Saint Cloud. but probably Genevas most remembered cab, the "ribbed and “crinkly” military version fitted to the Simca, (designed, and a direct copy of the Ford “Cargo”, F569, and F594, fitted with Marmon Herrington 4x4 transmission). These were produced from 1956, to 1960, at Simcas Surenses works. The cab over cab produced by Geneva for both Unic, and Mack-Bernard was perhaps one of their better looking designs!!
Eduard Bernard passed away in 1950, the company was not in good financial shape, having persued a philosophy of engineering excelence, over market/price acceptability. 1951, Fernand Geneva, Eduards friend, and business compatriot assumed the role of Chief Executive. This only lasted untill 1952, sadly the ship was sinking!
Mack, first became involved with Bernard in 1955/56, however bankrupcy occoured in 1957. Eduards son, Raymond took over the helm of Bernard, (held afloat by Macks guarantees), in 1959. He embarked upon a “French excellence” policy, the resulting vehicle, the “Greyhound”, powered by a 200hp, air cooled Alsthom diesel, was an unmitigated disaster, (although visually a very handsome lorry)!
1963, Mack took over total control, and made Bernard the Mack European centre for production. At the same time Mack, primarily an “east coast” US producer, had acquired Brockway, and were about to introduce (the potentially succesfull), MB Series, based on the Scania engine design The "financial butter was spread very thinly!! By 67 Mack, now involved in a full scale assault on Paccars home territory, the west coast USA, found the butter dish empty, and “cut and ran”, and Mack Bernard, was no more!!
Geneva cab Macks that I have personal experience of, Tpts G Borca et Fils Paris, long time Bernard users, also had some of the ugly Motorpanel V8s, Tpts Derudder, Dunkerque, whose blue and white livery graced Geneva, and Coventry`s Motorpanels cabs. Tpts Arras, who had Pelpel Versions,and Tpts Verdun, who I think had one of the very last Mack Bernards, a conventional, fitted with the incredibly ugly Letournieur cabs, (but it did look better than [ZB]s photograph, having the Bernard script in large letters across the base of the grill, (and if I recall correctly), a slightly different treatment to the windows in the sleeper compartment. I also recall a Belgian operator, (just outside the Kennedy tunnel), whose oak paneled office wall had a large framed photograph of a Pelpel cab Mack, alongside a Letournieur Bernard-Mack, both with Savoyard Tilts. For the life of me I cannot remember his name , but maybe tommorow I will, 15hour days are starting to feel like…15hour days to this old boy!!!
Yes the French industry is just as, if not more so, (given the UK, and US involvement), as fascinating as our own, Well Gentlemen, Im away to a little light Bollinger, and sleep, for tommorow they have given rain! bon nuit mes amis, Cheerio for now.
[zb]
anorak:
Welcome to the forum Barreiros- there’s a Spanish Dodge thread somewhere in here, if you’re interested. I always am! This link seems to confirm your post: forum-macchine.it/showthread.php?t=10019It seems to me that, after the expensive-to-build Charbonneaux cab was ditched, Mack/Bernard used this Geneve/Unic cab until Pelpel launched the handsome-looking one on the DAF above then, when Bernard went pop, Mack turned to Motor Panels, in 1968. Someone please confirm or deny this- I bet Mack people back home in the US were confused by it all!
Evening all, Barreiros a belated welcome!! To echo one of [ZB]s earlier comments the French industry of the 50s 60s, (and 70s), was certainly interesting!!
Barreiorss comment regarding the "Geneva cab is quite right, the bulk of the forward control Mack-Bernards produced from 1963...1967, (a total, both conventional, and cab over, and a very low volume, at that,) of less than 900 in total, were fitted with the cabin produced by Fernand Genevas company. Although in my post I was principaly concerned with the modest, (but inelegant design), involvement of my friends at Pelpel.
Now the integration of Geneva, and Bernard go well back. In fact in 1928 Eduard Bernard sold the patents of his hydraulic tipping mechanism to the coach builder Fernand Geneva. As he had decided that his company future lay with the design and building of an outstanding range of lorries that would be faithful to his aim, “that they would make his customers profit”.
Geneva produced thousands of these original hydraulic designs , from their premises at 88 Rue Fernand, Paris,right up untill the 80s, fitted to all types of chassis. However Genevas cab designs , they were many, and varied! For example, adopted by Willeme for their Oilfield "Sahara" range, (powered by their "straight eight" diesel, the model, RD615DT, and the "dumper ",LD610D. (In latter years both would acquire the option of AECs 11litre @200hp, or 13litre @230hp). Fiats C40/Son Autiel, and the Unic Saint Cloud. but probably Genevas most remembered cab, the "ribbed and “crinkly” military version fitted to the Simca, (designed, and a direct copy of the Ford “Cargo”, F569, and F594, fitted with Marmon Herrington 4x4 transmission). These were produced from 1956, to 1960, at Simcas Surenses works. The cab over cab produced by Geneva for both Unic, and Mack-Bernard was perhaps one of their better looking designs!!
Eduard Bernard passed away in 1950, the company was not in good financial shape, having persued a philosophy of engineering excelence, over market/price acceptability. 1951, Fernand Geneva, Eduards friend, and business compatriot assumed the role of Chief Executive. This only lasted untill 1952, sadly the ship was sinking!
Mack, first became involved with Bernard in 1955/56, however bankrupcy occoured in 1957. Eduards son, Raymond took over the helm of Bernard, (held afloat by Macks guarantees), in 1959. He embarked upon a “French excellence” policy, the resulting vehicle, the “Greyhound”, powered by a 200hp, air cooled Alsthom diesel, was an unmitigated disaster, (although visually a very handsome lorry)!
1963, Mack took over total control, and made Bernard the Mack European centre for production. At the same time Mack, primarily an “east coast” US producer, had acquired Brockway, and were about to introduce (the potentially succesfull), MB Series, based on the Scania engine design The "financial butter was spread very thinly!! By 67 Mack, now involved in a full scale assault on Paccars home territory, the west coast USA, found the butter dish empty, and “cut and ran”, and Mack Bernard, was no more!!
Geneva cab Macks that I have personal experience of, Tpts G Borca et Fils Paris, long time Bernard users, also had some of the ugly Motorpanel V8s, Tpts Derudder, Dunkerque, whose blue and white livery graced Geneva, and Coventry`s Motorpanels cabs. Tpts Arras, who had Pelpel Versions,and Tpts Verdun, who I think had one of the very last Mack Bernards, a conventional, fitted with the incredibly ugly Letournieur cabs, (but it did look better than [ZB]s photograph, having the Bernard script in large letters across the base of the grill, (and if I recall correctly), a slightly different treatment to the windows in the sleeper compartment. I also recall a Belgian operator, (just outside the Kennedy tunnel), whose oak paneled office wall had a large framed photograph of a Pelpel cab Mack, alongside a Letournieur Bernard-Mack, both with Savoyard Tilts. For the life of me I cannot remember his name , but maybe tommorow I will, 15hour days are starting to feel like…15hour days to this old boy!!!
Yes the French industry is just as, if not more so, (given the UK, and US involvement), as fascinating as our own, Well Gentlemen, Im away to a little light Bollinger, and sleep, for tommorow they have given rain! bon nuit mes amis, Cheerio for now.
[zb]
anorak:
Welcome to the forum Barreiros- there’s a Spanish Dodge thread somewhere in here, if you’re interested. I always am! This link seems to confirm your post: forum-macchine.it/showthread.php?t=10019It seems to me that, after the expensive-to-build Charbonneaux cab was ditched, Mack/Bernard used this Geneve/Unic cab until Pelpel launched the handsome-looking one on the DAF above then, when Bernard went pop, Mack turned to Motor Panels, in 1968. Someone please confirm or deny this- I bet Mack people back home in the US were confused by it all!
Evening all, Barreiros a belated welcome!! To echo one of [ZB]s earlier comments the French industry of the 50s 60s, (and 70s), was certainly interesting!!
Barreiorss comment regarding the "Geneva cab is quite right, the bulk of the forward control Mack-Bernards produced from 1963...1967, (a total, both conventional, and cab over, and a very low volume, at that,) of less than 900 in total, were fitted with the cabin produced by Fernand Genevas company. Although in my post I was principaly concerned with the modest, (but inelegant design), involvement of my friends at Pelpel.
Now the integration of Geneva, and Bernard go well back. In fact in 1928 Eduard Bernard sold the patents of his hydraulic tipping mechanism to the coach builder Fernand Geneva. As he had decided that his company future lay with the design and building of an outstanding range of lorries that would be faithful to his aim, “that they would make his customers profit”.
Geneva produced thousands of these original hydraulic designs , from their premises at 88 Rue Fernand, Paris,right up untill the 80s, fitted to all types of chassis. However Genevas cab designs , they were many, and varied! For example, adopted by Willeme for their Oilfield "Sahara" range, (powered by their "straight eight" diesel, the model, RD615DT, and the "dumper ",LD610D. (In latter years both would acquire the option of AECs 11litre @200hp, or 13litre @230hp). Fiats C40/Son Autiel, and the Unic Saint Cloud. but probably Genevas most remembered cab, the "ribbed and “crinkly” military version fitted to the Simca, (designed, and a direct copy of the Ford “Cargo”, F569, and F594, fitted with Marmon Herrington 4x4 transmission). These were produced from 1956, to 1960, at Simcas Surenses works. The cab over cab produced by Geneva for both Unic, and Mack-Bernard was perhaps one of their better looking designs!!
Eduard Bernard passed away in 1950, the company was not in good financial shape, having persued a philosophy of engineering excelence, over market/price acceptability. 1951, Fernand Geneva, Eduards friend, and business compatriot assumed the role of Chief Executive. This only lasted untill 1952, sadly the ship was sinking!
Mack, first became involved with Bernard in 1955/56, however bankrupcy occoured in 1957. Eduards son, Raymond took over the helm of Bernard, (held afloat by Macks guarantees), in 1959. He embarked upon a “French excellence” policy, the resulting vehicle, the “Greyhound”, powered by a 200hp, air cooled Alsthom diesel, was an unmitigated disaster, (although visually a very handsome lorry)!
1963, Mack took over total control, and made Bernard the Mack European centre for production. At the same time Mack, primarily an “east coast” US producer, had acquired Brockway, and were about to introduce (the potentially succesfull), MB Series, based on the Scania engine design The "financial butter was spread very thinly!! By 67 Mack, now involved in a full scale assault on Paccars home territory, the west coast USA, found the butter dish empty, and “cut and ran”, and Mack Bernard, was no more!!
Geneva cab Macks that I have personal experience of, Tpts G Borca et Fils Paris, long time Bernard users, also had some of the ugly Motorpanel V8s, Tpts Derudder, Dunkerque, whose blue and white livery graced Geneva, and Coventry`s Motorpanels cabs. Tpts Arras, who had Pelpel Versions,and Tpts Verdun, who I think had one of the very last Mack Bernards, a conventional, fitted with the incredibly ugly Letournieur cabs, (but it did look better than [ZB]s photograph, having the Bernard script in large letters across the base of the grill, (and if I recall correctly), a slightly different treatment to the windows in the sleeper compartment. I also recall a Belgian operator, (just outside the Kennedy tunnel), whose oak paneled office wall had a large framed photograph of a Pelpel cab Mack, alongside a Letournieur Bernard-Mack, both with Savoyard Tilts. For the life of me I cannot remember his name , but maybe tommorow I will, 15hour days are starting to feel like…15hour days to this old boy!!!
Yes the French industry is just as, if not more so, (given the UK, and US involvement), as fascinating as our own, Well Gentlemen, Im away to a little light Bollinger, and sleep, for tommorow they have given rain! bon nuit mes amis, Cheerio for now.
Gentlemen, apologies, …15hour days, well I seem to have little control over my fingers!!! triple posts, …and no Bollinger as yet!! (but soon)… adieumes braves.
Is that Belgian operator V. Charlier of Liège by any chance?
Thanks for all the insight so far, this is a very interesting topic for me. I am a model builder with a taste for the exotic (am a darn German) and too young to have any real memories beyond the 80’s, so I have to get all my knowledge second-hand.
I’ll try to manufacture a bit of a storyline with the little knowledge I have, maybe that will help sorting the facts a bit:
1957 Bernard Lévrier ist presented with the 200 HP aircooled engine, cab submitted by Pelpel (as on most Bernards before)
1961 Charbonneaux forward cab is introduced, nicknamed “Television”, also submitted by Pelpel. Engine on those was the old Bernard design 165 HP again, later models had a 185HP engine but the competition had 200+ HP engines and Bernard had failed at that barrier not being able to offer a competitive engine. Little side note: On the first prototypes the windscreens fell out when braking too hard. That’s why they introduced the round side windows, it strengthened the cab structure enough to prevent this from happening. So the cab was a bit fragile, especially for dumpers etc.
(1962 First introduction of the Genève Unic cab, baptized “Vincennes” on Unic chassis. This cab also appeared on french electric engined trucks by Sovel. Unic later agrees to Genève providing cabs for those Macks. Unic probably got something out of that deal and maybe it was just a timely limited agreement.)
1963 In December Mack takes over, Mack-Bernard is created. Mack vehicles are immediately imported from the US to widen the new company’s profile. However, there are stories that some of those Macks did not meet the French road code and therefore were unsellable, sitting in the factory’s yard for a while. One shipment of trucks got lost on the Atlantic ocean as the ship sank. This is also when the first Fernch-American hybrid models start to appear, mostly Mack engines in Bernard designs, those engines are at 214 HP, the 200 HP barrier is finally met with a satisfactory design.
1964 Production number 281 vehicles a year. I think this is when the first EFT models with the Genève cab appeared early in the year, Mack engine and drivetrain imported from the USA. Also different cab styles were available for the normal control models, the old Pelpel design and a new one, using only plain angled sheets to cut down on production cost. Cabs were produced by Pelpel, Pourtout and Letourneur & Marchand for those.
April 1964 the takover/merger deal between Chrysler and Mack USA is shattered by the US gouvernment.
1965 The “Television” cab is updated by the slightly slicker and polished design by Pelpel, could also be earlier but I have no facts about that (the first Bernard-Mack models still used the Charbonneaux cab, only the badges and the dash were a tad different). Why they introduced that updated one already having those EFT models around… no idea! Maybe to please the old Bernard customers? But somehow I have the feeling that there was a bit of a crisis with all their cab suppliers and they just tried to manage. Or it has some fibreglass panels and it’s a lightweight thing as opposed to the rugged Genève cab? But that would seem a bit odd for a manufacturer with financial problems.
1966 Production number 52 vehicles a year.
1967 Production number 9 vehicles a year. Mack-Bernard is being liquidated, some production machinery is sold off the Bernard facilities to Mack Iran. Mack France is being born and they take use of most of Bernard’s remaining dealership network. This should be when those Motor Panels F-series appeared. As said before, in a “Motor Panels” brochure it mentions the year 1968 for them, but I don’t know if that is super accurate. After that the normal F-Series found it’s official way to the French market. There were also a few R-Series in France, mostly chassis for construction vehicles. But a few 4x2 artics were sold, some sporting a newer Pelpel cab again (Borca had a few of them).
I wonder if the introduction of the longer F-Series cab had something to do with the final decision for the original Mack cab. I mean the one with the bulbous rear wall bunk that allowed for more room in the bench compartment. Maybe that one was finally roomy enough for the European demands. Apart from a few early Dutch-registered F-Series it seems to me that all of the Europeans had that spacey bunk. Anyone know when that one was introduced?
Monsiuer Saviem, the “Sahara” cab used by Willème was again built by Cottard, not Genève. However, Unic had some kind of desert-proof design too, maybe you were refferring to that. Because on the Unic “Sahara”, I have no clue who built it.
But that brings me to a thought on the strange Motor Panels choice. All in all, Bernard had a very close relationship with Pelpel and a plethora of their designs were used over the years. The same might be said about Willème and the coachbuilder Cottard. However, in around 1967 Cottard closed its doors and Willème needed a new provider of cabs for their trucks. And they turned to Pelpel, first with their forward-control designs and later with their whole range. Looking at the date, it might be that Bernard (-Mack) weren’t in the best relationship any more because of the overall situation any more and Willème took the opportunity and stepped in. Could be why Mack had to look for another cab supplier, or maybe the just wanted a fresh start. Just a thought that appeared while typing…
And if you think that the Motor Panels Mack was ugly, have a look at this handsome fellow. I got that picture off the net and it said that it was a Letourneur cab but I have my doubts about that. Many of the panels and especially the windows look like it’s a Pelpel design. The grille treatment is also very similar to those Willème TG models, which also had Pelpel cabs.
Only a small picture, but rare enough:
Small again, probably even rarer and maybe of special interest on this forum. Leyland with that same Pelpel cab:
Superb. More please.
Evening all, Barreiros, great post! The Mack /Pelpel, she was a “mock up” for Mack executives to view, and based on the Willeme TG front panel, with modified doors, but I understand from my friend Claude Gouren, (an octagenarian, ex Pelpel employee), was actualy sold!
Somewhere I have given a detail on the Leyland /Pelpel, [ZB], will probably remember and point you in the direction!
On the Letournier, no Charlier was not the operator I was thinking of. This one was situated just down from the Kennedy Tunnel, also ran a number of Saviem V8s, and had run some JL19s, red and cream livery,…I will remember the name…eventually, (old age).
Apologies , short post, dictated by the need to get out of the office, and back in the saddle, the weather is forecast wet tommorow, and we have many bales to get in!! Cheerio for now.
