ramone:
A non loaded question here , why would you prefer to be ruled by Europeans rather than British ?
Firstly Britons are European, secondly why not? Politicians are the same everywhere, they tell lies, many are corrupt, but some of them do have a conscience and do do good.
Thirdly, security, Europe is far less likely to fragment (unlike Britain at the moment and because[/b] of Britain at the moment) and cause a destructive war. We, together in Europe, have the best chance in a thousand years to make peace work.
ramone:
A non loaded question here , why would you prefer to be ruled by Europeans rather than British ?
Firstly Britons are European, secondly why not? Politicians are the same everywhere, they tell lies, many are corrupt, but some of them do have a conscience and do do good.
Thirdly, security, Europe is far less likely to fragment (unlike Britain at the moment and because[/b] of Britain at the moment) and cause a destructive war. We, together in Europe, have the best chance in a thousand years to make peace work. [/quote] Spardo your stretching that a bit too far there with best chance of peace in a thousand years quote, Germany is the main power house in the EU with the French a little further back, they want to control all just like Hitler did in the last war. most of the other countries do what there told, as in the song " Please release me let me go " we will be fine on our own, Buzzer.
> Spardo: > > ramone: > > A non loaded question here , why would you prefer to be ruled by Europeans rather than British ? > > > Firstly Britons are European, secondly why not? Politicians are the same everywhere, they tell lies, many are corrupt, but some of them do have a conscience and do do good. > > Thirdly, security, Europe is far less likely to fragment (unlike Britain at the moment and because[/b] of Britain at the moment) and cause a destructive war. We, together in Europe, have the best chance in a thousand years to make peace work. > [/quote] > [/i] > In many respects I would prefer to be ‘GOVERNED’ by a European Parliament as all the evidence I have seen is that it is more Democratic than Westminster (Less Monkey Antics Too) & doesn’t just go by the 1st past the post principle but requires a meaningful majority in most cases (65% / 35%)), not a very slim majority such as the leave vote > It also has long held the philosophy of ‘For The Regions’ so it cares more about smaller groups, in our case: Scotland, Wales< Cornwall & NI - ruled by Westminster we get an Anglo Centric & London Centric share of the spoils. It amazes me that people in the North who suffer from lack of investment, particularly in the railways, would want to lose the balancing hand of the EU. > I’m sure the people of Pakistan and their neighbours can’t wait for the UK to leave and the corresponding boost to their immigration chances
Just a point of question why is it all these immigrants or so called economic migrants only want to come to the UK, why are they not stopped at the first border of the EU they encounter, many have traversed several EU member states to get to Calais or Caen and either try and board trucks to gain entry or buy a place on an inflatable boat and take there chance in the channel. Personally I would take them all back to France and let them deal with them as lately they are becoming an epidemic, shame the EU does not pay more attention to deal with this situation like Australia does, if we sent them all back they would stop trying to come here as they pay traffickers lots of money and they have not got a bottomless pit of money. We need as a country to get harder with this problem, we have enough here now, Buzzer.
ramone:
A non loaded question here , why would you prefer to be ruled by Europeans rather than British ?
Firstly Britons are European, secondly why not? Politicians are the same everywhere, they tell lies, many are corrupt, but some of them do have a conscience and do do good.
Thirdly, security, Europe is far less likely to fragment (unlike Britain at the moment and because[/b] of Britain at the moment) and cause a destructive war. We, together in Europe, have the best chance in a thousand years to make peace work. [/quote] So knowing all that about politicians why would we want to be part of a system in which we have no electoral control whatsoever over a foreign majority voting down our small presence in the EU parliament let alone commissioners and people like Juncker. As for Federalism = peace and security remind us of the history and make up of the ‘country’ which kicked off both World Wars and a few before that.Here’s a clue there was no such country as ‘Germany’ before 1871.On that note it’s obviously easier for despotic megalomaniacs ruling over large behemoth Federal governments to go to war because of the centralised wide spread catchment area that such a regime gives them in terms of government and resources.As opposed to numerous smaller sovereign entities all with the sovereign right to say no.In addition to the fact that the first and foremost mission of a federal army is to stamp out dissent in the form of the justified wish for self determination and local democracy which that provides.Resulting in the Yugoslav war of Federal aggression v Nationalist Secession. With scum like Juncker showing all the usual signs of using his unelected position to take Europe into another catastrophic war against Russia of which his ■■■■ quisling father would have been proud.True to form calling for ‘peace’ with Russia while wanting an EU Federal army for obvious motives ( Molotov Ribbentrop pact v Operation Barbarossa ).Peace you’re avin a larf. theguardian.com/world/2018/m … de-juncker theguardian.com/world/2015/m … on-miltary thesun.co.uk/archives/news/8 … zi-regime/
Buzzer:
Just a point of question why is it all these immigrants or so called economic migrants only want to come to the UK, why are they not stopped at the first border of the EU they encounter, many have traversed several EU member states to get to Calais or Caen and either try and board trucks to gain entry or buy a place on an inflatable boat and take there chance in the channel. Personally I would take them all back to France and let them deal with them as lately they are becoming an epidemic, shame the EU does not pay more attention to deal with this situation like Australia does, if we sent them all back they would stop trying to come here as they pay traffickers lots of money and they have not got a bottomless pit of money. We need as a country to get harder with this problem, we have enough here now, Buzzer.
Fully agree with Buzzer on that point.However maybe its more difficult to return to their first point of entry,as Calais or Caen couldn`t be it.If they give no information,or hold no passports,and give no information,it must be extremely difficult to repatriate them.
The Australian answer might be an option.But where?
whisperingsmith: > Spardo: > > ramone: > > A non loaded question here , why would you prefer to be ruled by Europeans rather than British ? > > > Firstly Britons are European, secondly why not? Politicians are the same everywhere, they tell lies, many are corrupt, but some of them do have a conscience and do do good. > > Thirdly, security, Europe is far less likely to fragment (unlike Britain at the moment and because[/b] of Britain at the moment) and cause a destructive war. We, together in Europe, have the best chance in a thousand years to make peace work. > [/quote] > [/i] > In many respects I would prefer to be ‘GOVERNED’ by a European Parliament as all the evidence I have seen is that it is more Democratic than Westminster (Less Monkey Antics Too) & doesn’t just go by the 1st past the post principle but requires a meaningful majority in most cases (65% / 35%)), not a very slim majority such as the leave vote > It also has long held the philosophy of ‘For The Regions’ so it cares more about smaller groups, in our case: Scotland, Wales< Cornwall & NI - ruled by Westminster we get an Anglo Centric & London Centric share of the spoils. It amazes me that people in the North who suffer from lack of investment, particularly in the railways, would want to lose the balancing hand of the EU. > I’m sure the people of Pakistan and their neighbours can’t wait for the UK to leave and the corresponding boost to their immigration chances > [/quote] > Yes, I did wince at the ‘ruled’ bit, rather than ‘governed’, but decided to leave that aside so as not to dilute the main body of my reply. > But you are also right about the voting systems, the various Proportional systems have their advantages and disadvantages but none is so undemocratic as the ridiculous First Past the Post in the UK. The EU parliament is more grown up in comparison with the juvenile antics at Westminster. > And it really cracks me up that the generally accepted reason for the leave vote was anti-immigration when all it will have achieved is swapping European white immigration for Asian brown. Not because the Asians are better qualified but because the Europeans have simply got fed up with the aggresive attitude in Britain these days. Apart from the obvious loss of income to send home due to the plunge of the pound in relation to the euro. > This could turn out to be the biggest ‘shooting in the foot’ incident in history. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad. > > Whiplash: > > The Australian answer might be an option.But where? > Rockall?
Those that get in should be held in detention camps until they can prove their identity (those that throw their passports away).
I know the UK does that in some circumstances but it must be compulsory. Until their identity is proven, THEN process their claim for status or asylum and NOT before. I would assume detainees would soon want to speed up the process to get out into the land of milk and honey.
Yes, it will cost the UK money to “house” them but so will letting them out into the community. Living in the black/criminal economy cannot be measured and that’s where they will be headed.
The UK has to be made less attractive to these people.
A point was made further up the thread about implementation of EU rules. Process on FIRST entry! The Greeks, Italians and Spanish all play lip service to the EU rules and release them into the community…hahaha…I’m sure those Gov’ts say “community” as in the EU community, not the local community. Reason being: No central Brussels funds are forthcoming to set up detention camps. There should not be ONE illegal immigrant in France. I’ve never heard of Sub-Saharan’s arriving in Marseille!
Spardo:
Yes, I did wince at the ‘ruled’ bit, rather than ‘governed’, but decided to leave that aside so as not to dilute the main body of my reply.
But you are also right about the voting systems, the various Proportional systems have their advantages and disadvantages but none is so undemocratic as the ridiculous First Past the Post in the UK. The EU parliament is more grown up in comparison with the juvenile antics at Westminster.
And it really cracks me up that the generally accepted reason for the leave vote was anti-immigration when all it will have achieved is swapping European white immigration for Asian brown. Not because the Asians are better qualified but because the Europeans have simply got fed up with the aggresive attitude in Britain these days. Apart from the obvious loss of income to send home due to the plunge of the pound in relation to the euro.
This could turn out to be the biggest ‘shooting in the foot’ incident in history. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.
What’s the difference between ruled v governed.
How can a situation in which a combination/majority of foreign MP’s,with a foreign electoral mandate over ruling our national MEP Group and thereby national interest and vote,in the form of QMV let alone unelected Commissioners,supposedly be democratic.
As for immigration yeah right the EU would never countenance non EU immigration.In which case feel free to explain this.Typical lying Federalists.
ramone:
A non loaded question here , why would you prefer to be ruled by Europeans rather than British ?
Well, it IS a loaded question, mate!
Surely we aren’t “ruled” at all? That implies some form of monarch or dictator doesn’t it?
But leaving that aside…
The world we live isn’t ‘country size’ any more. Companies are multinational. To be economically viable and militarily secure the UK is simply too small to be independent.
We need to be part of NATO for security, and part of a trading group or groups for economic reasons.
Like it or lump it, we no longer have an empire, the commonwealth countries have other partners, and for the past decades we’ve had the EU as our biggest trade partner. The EU are mostly our NATO partners.
If we think we can live separately from them we are kidding ourselves.
What the EU does WILL affect us. Surely it’s better to see the reality of the situation? As part of the EU we’ve had a say in the rules. When we leave we won’t. We’ll still have them as our biggest suppliers and customers but won’t have so much influence with them.
So they want us as customers? Of course, but does that mean they will kow-tow to us? As much as we would to them. We aren’t as big and powerful as some Brexiteers said. The leave negotiations haven’t had them begging exactly have they?
But to the point, we are affected by the EU whether or not we are members. So we are ‘ruled’ by their decisions. Brexit won’t affect that truth, except to deny us a voice at the decision making table!
whisperingsmith: > Spardo: > > ramone: > > A non loaded question here , why would you prefer to be ruled by Europeans rather than British ? > > > Firstly Britons are European, secondly why not? Politicians are the same everywhere, they tell lies, many are corrupt, but some of them do have a conscience and do do good. > > Thirdly, security, Europe is far less likely to fragment (unlike Britain at the moment and because[/b] of Britain at the moment) and cause a destructive war. We, together in Europe, have the best chance in a thousand years to make peace work. > [/quote] > [/i] > In many respects I would prefer to be ‘GOVERNED’ by a European Parliament as all the evidence I have seen is that it is more Democratic than Westminster (Less Monkey Antics Too) & doesn’t just go by the 1st past the post principle but requires a meaningful majority in most cases (65% / 35%)), not a very slim majority such as the … > [/quote] > I don’t want to be governed (ruled) by people like Juncker (who can’t even put a matching pair of shoes on), Barnier, Tusk and Verhofstadt. > They despise us. > As far as Scotland is concerned, the business of trying to say that Scotland’s position to England is the same as Britain’s position to Europe is surely incorrect. England subsidises both. Scotland would move from being subsidised by one to being subsidised by the other? Whereas England would cease subsidising both?
ramone:
A non loaded question here , why would you prefer to be ruled by Europeans rather than British ?
Well, it IS a loaded question, mate!
Surely we aren’t “ruled” at all? That implies some form of monarch or dictator doesn’t it?
But leaving that aside…
The world we live isn’t ‘country size’ any more. Companies are multinational. To be economically viable and militarily secure the UK is simply too small to be independent.
We need to be part of NATO for security, and part of a trading group or groups for economic reasons.
Like it or lump it, we no longer have an empire, the commonwealth countries have other partners, and for the past decades we’ve had the EU as our biggest trade partner. The EU are mostly our NATO partners.
If we think we can live separately from them we are kidding ourselves.
What the EU does WILL affect us. Surely it’s better to see the reality of the situation? As part of the EU we’ve had a say in the rules. When we leave we won’t. We’ll still have them as our biggest suppliers and customers but won’t have so much influence with them.
So they want us as customers? Of course, but does that mean they will kow-tow to us? As much as we would to them. We aren’t as big and powerful as some Brexiteers said. The leave negotiations haven’t had them begging exactly have they?
But to the point, we are affected by the EU whether or not we are members. So we are ‘ruled’ by their decisions. Brexit won’t affect that truth, except to deny us a voice at the decision making table!
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
Would you rather be GOVERNED (not ruled) by those nice folk on the gravy train oops sorry the EU or would you like to have a say in your own future and be Governed by a British Government . I think weve had a vote on this somewhere down the line and some people dont like the result
whisperingsmith: > Spardo: > > ramone: > > A non loaded question here , why would you prefer to be ruled by Europeans rather than British ? > > > Firstly Britons are European, secondly why not? Politicians are the same everywhere, they tell lies, many are corrupt, but some of them do have a conscience and do do good. > > Thirdly, security, Europe is far less likely to fragment (unlike Britain at the moment and because[/b] of Britain at the moment) and cause a destructive war. We, together in Europe, have the best chance in a thousand years to make peace work. > [/quote] > [/i] > In many respects I would prefer to be ‘GOVERNED’ by a European Parliament as all the evidence I have seen is that it is more Democratic than Westminster (Less Monkey Antics Too) & doesn’t just go by the 1st past the post principle but requires a meaningful majority in most cases (65% / 35%)), not a very slim majority such as the leave vote > It also has long held the philosophy of ‘For The Regions’ so it cares more about smaller groups, in our case: Scotland, Wales< Cornwall & NI - ruled by Westminster we get an Anglo Centric & London Centric share of the spoils. It amazes me that people in the North who suffer from lack of investment, particularly in the railways, would want to lose the balancing hand of the EU. > I’m sure the people of Pakistan and their neighbours can’t wait for the UK to leave and the corresponding boost to their immigration chances > [/quote] > Does Catalonia count as a small/region that the EU cares for??
ramone:
A non loaded question here , why would you prefer to be ruled by Europeans rather than British ?
Well, it IS a loaded question, mate!
Surely we aren’t “ruled” at all? That implies some form of monarch or dictator doesn’t it?
But leaving that aside…
The world we live isn’t ‘country size’ any more. Companies are multinational. To be economically viable and militarily secure the UK is simply too small to be independent.
We need to be part of NATO for security, and part of a trading group or groups for economic reasons.
Like it or lump it, we no longer have an empire, the commonwealth countries have other partners, and for the past decades we’ve had the EU as our biggest trade partner. The EU are mostly our NATO partners.
If we think we can live separately from them we are kidding ourselves.
What the EU does WILL affect us. Surely it’s better to see the reality of the situation? As part of the EU we’ve had a say in the rules. When we leave we won’t. We’ll still have them as our biggest suppliers and customers but won’t have so much influence with them.
So they want us as customers? Of course, but does that mean they will kow-tow to us? As much as we would to them. We aren’t as big and powerful as some Brexiteers said. The leave negotiations haven’t had them begging exactly have they?
But to the point, we are affected by the EU whether or not we are members. So we are ‘ruled’ by their decisions. Brexit won’t affect that truth, except to deny us a voice at the decision making table!
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
Would you rather be GOVERNED (not ruled) by those nice folk on the gravy train oops sorry the EU or would you like to have a say in your own future and be Governed by a British Government . I think weve had a vote on this somewhere down the line and some people dont like the result
Are you saying all UK politicians are really selfless individuals, and so are different from those in the EU?
I don’t see much difference. There are some good politicians out there, but I wouldn’t say Whitehall is so different from Brussels.
And that doesn’t affect my point: in or out, ruled or governed, the EU will have a big continuing affect on us. Unless we wish to become western Europe’s version of Enver Hoxha’s Albania we are affected by the EU.
> gazsa401: > [/i] My Father was 10 squadron Bomber Command - If he was still alive he would be mortified by your post - the thing he risked his life for (Night After Night) was not for the sort of hatred & isolationist posts that you & other Brexiteers make. Actually, we didn’t vote for Brexit - there was a very small majority in favour of Brexit & now that people are waking up to the fact that he Brexit camp lied all the way to the Ballot box - people want their say. Not surprisingly the Brexiteers on this Forum seem to think it is perfectly OK to lie to get their way - yet somehow think the rest Of Europe is corrupt - Only In Ingerland.
whisperingsmith: > gazsa401: > [/i] My Father was 10 squadron Bomber Command - If he was still alive he would be mortified by your post - the thing he risked his life for (Night After Night) was not for the sort of hatred & isolationist posts that you & other Brexiteers make. Actually, we didn’t vote for Brexit - there was a very small majority in favour of Brexit & now that people are waking up to the fact that he Brexit camp lied all the way to the Ballot box - people want their say. Not surprisingly the Brexiteers on this Forum seem to think it is perfectly OK to lie to get their way - yet somehow think the rest Of Europe is corrupt - Only In Ingerland. [/quote] I never heard a German driver say British drivers were lazy …
whisperingsmith: > gazsa401: > [/i] My Father was 10 squadron Bomber Command - If he was still alive he would be mortified by your post - the thing he risked his life for was not for the sort of hatred & isolationist posts that you & other Brexiteers make [/quote] My paternal Grandad was a desert rat in WW2 he lost 2 brothers one a flight sergeant on a Lancaster Bomber the other a train driver in Italy My maternal Grandad was a ground crew member in the RAF based in Malta he was wounded during an attack by the Luftwaffe My paternal Grandad never talked about the war as he witnessed some horrific scenes my Grandma used to tell me he’d wake up screaming some nights even up to his death in 1998 My maternal Grandad died last year and he voted to leave the EU and would often tell others to do the same as the EU was becoming a parody of a kind of Nazism The German led EU was taking over Europe by stealth and by voting to leave the EU this hopefully would put a halt to the creation of a superstate I was only 5 when the original vote for the EEC ( common market) was taken I’ve no problem being part of a trading bloc But I do take offence at me losing family members who died in order for me to live in a free independent country and my birthright of freedom of speech which my family and the millions who gave their lives for me to say so
