Buzzer:
Getting back to the business of Brexit, Buzzer
There may well be a good reason why many remainers don’t ‘realise these FACTS’
Could it possibly be, because they aren’t facts?
Non of the so-called facts appear anywhere in my reading of the Treaty of Lisbon, though I do admit I am not a lawyer and certainly not someone who gets off on reading through whole treatys, but, a quick read through this:
mentions not one word of that nonsense, none at all, and in fact turns up some interesting facts not appearing above.
For instance it gives:
Any country the legal right to leave.
Introduces qualified majority voting in more than 45 policy areas of Council of Ministers
that is 65% of European citizens. Compare that with the 52% of UK voters who voted to leave.
a more powerful parliament (thus anwering the oft and eroneously repeated jibes about lack of democracy)
Gives UK slightly more MEPs than before but at the same time giving Germany slightly less
An EU army can only come into force with total unanimity
Absolutely no mention of 2022 or 13 years after the treaty in 2009
And no mention of the bloody queen, of England, the Netherlands, Spain, or anywhere else.
So where did you dig up all that fake news from Buzzer?
Buzzer:
Getting back to the business of Brexit, Buzzer
There may well be a good reason why many remainers don’t ‘realise these FACTS’
Could it possibly be, because they aren’t facts?
Non of the so-called facts appear anywhere in my reading of the Treaty of Lisbon, though I do admit I am not a lawyer and certainly not someone who gets off on reading through whole treatys, but, a quick read through this:
mentions not one word of that nonsense, none at all, and in fact turns up some interesting facts not appearing above.
For instance it gives:
Any country the legal right to leave.
Introduces qualified majority voting in more than 45 policy areas of Council of Ministers
that is 65% of European citizens. Compare that with the 52% of UK voters who voted to leave.
a more powerful parliament (thus anwering the oft and eroneously repeated jibes about lack of democracy)
Gives UK slightly more MEPs than before but at the same time giving Germany slightly less
An EU army can only come into force with total unanimity
Absolutely no mention of 2022 or 13 years after the treaty in 2009
And no mention of the bloody queen, of England, the Netherlands, Spain, or anywhere else.
So where did you dig up all that fake news from Buzzer?
Care to share?
The fact of the matter is “spardo” i only posted that for the benefit of you and others like you just in case you were board after Christmas to give you summit to do to pass the time of day, i have never seen let alone read the Lisbon treaty so i would not know i leave all that to learned gentlemen like yourself.
You know i am a leaver so what ever i can post to make the case for that objective true or false i will not unlike the government of this country, they ALL lie with not many exceptions, come to think about it remainers and leavers all lie about the facts as well. The fact of the matter is that i learn far more from the educated posters on this thread like yourself and not forgetting good old CF (what a mine of information and facts he is) than i can imagine you must do endless reading so keep up the good work so i can improve my knowlege and be a wiser person, Buzzer
Still no one seems to realise the EU needs us more than we need them . They will only trade under their terms , try telling German Swedish French Italian Belgian car commercial vehicle manufacturers that . I think the Germans sell more cars here than anywhere else in Europe . We will need travel visas to stay in EU countries for extended trips but not holidays , how convenient for Spain and Portugal take our tourists out of those two countries and see the reaction . This is a great opportunity for the few British car manufacturers over here and definitely DAF to make a killing . The EU will be pleading with us to deal with them ,can you imagine the bosses at BMW AUDI and Mercedes looking at their stock of unsold RHD cars sat rotting away because the EU want to play games .
Bewick:
Hiya Buzzer, do you and I qualify for the description of " The Great Unwashed" i.e. " Down to earth and a spade is a shovel" ! Cheers Dennis.
Well Dennis I think we do, as far as I am concerned we are embroiled with being entangled within the EU control is not working. Referring back to when I was running our company if you trialled summit and it did not work or run smoothly to the net gain to the company you changed it and found a better way, the problem with the EU is we have been in it far too long before realising it aint working, we should have pulled out years ago and even then in the end it was the people of this country who voted to leave it was not the powers to be above who are supposed to rule for the benefit of all of us, but they have failed us and continue to do so instead of speeding the will of the country and delivering us justice and getting the hell out of this undemocratic ballsup. Infact in my opinion is instead of having to face a bill of 39 billion they should pay us compensation for having the foresight to leave.
Read today they have now bailed Italy out again and they have zilch chance of ever paying back what they owe, they are far too deep in for that. Perhaps the whole dang thing will collapse before we get Brexit and it cannot come soon enough for me, cheers comrade lets hope it happens soon, Buzzer
I took the time to read through the Wikipedia article on the Lisbon Treaty that Spardo posted. He’s right in that none of those things that were listed in Buzzer’s post are referred to directly, but, my God, there’s a enough ambiguity in there to give any lawyer a heart attack. It was less than three weeks ago that the European Court of Justice gave a ruling that a leaving country does not need the permission of the remaining members, the European Parliament or anyone else to revoke Article 50 and stay in the Union. That eventuality obviously hadn’t been considered until now, so it’s been passed hastily, presumably in the hope that the UK will come quietly back into the fold. There’s no mention of a set-out procedure for leaving, other than that any member has the right to leave (subject to terms to be negotiated after triggering Article 50), but there is still the stated intention of “ever closer Union”, which could by inference mean that some of the items on Buzzer’s list are indeed in the EU’s sights. At one point, not that long ago, our own Government were saying that a no-deal is better than a bad deal, and I sincerely hope that is what happens on March 29th. A clean break, then back to negotiating mutually advantageous arrangements for trade, security and so on.
Fodenway:
It was less than three weeks ago that the European Court of Justice gave a ruling that a leaving country does not need the permission of the remaining members, the European Parliament or anyone else to revoke Article 50 and stay in the Union.
That was a case brought by some Scottish MPs and MEPs (remember Scotland voted to remain) to clarify that a state cannot be forced out of the Union and therefore if a change of mind was expressed legally (by referendum or UK parliament) before the UK actually left (March 31 2019) then nobody can stop it staying in. Simple as that.
Stating that ‘ever closer union’ changes nothing at all, can’t be done without all countries agreeing. So might therefore be more likely having got rid of Britain, who was very unlikely to agree, although I doubt that all the others would agree either.
fodenway:
I took the time to read through the Wikipedia article on the Lisbon Treaty that Spardo posted. He’s right in that none of those things that were listed in Buzzer’s post are referred to directly, but, my God, there’s a enough ambiguity in there to give any lawyer a heart attack. It was less than three weeks ago that the European Court of Justice gave a ruling that a leaving country does not need the permission of the remaining members, the European Parliament or anyone else to revoke Article 50 and stay in the Union. That eventuality obviously hadn’t been considered until now, so it’s been passed hastily, presumably in the hope that the UK will come quietly back into the fold. There’s no mention of a set-out procedure for leaving, other than that any member has the right to leave (subject to terms to be negotiated after triggering Article 50), but there is still the stated intention of “ever closer Union”, which could by inference mean that some of the items on Buzzer’s list are indeed in the EU’s sights. At one point, not that long ago, our own Government were saying that a no-deal is better than a bad deal, and I sincerely hope that is what happens on March 29th. A clean break, then back to negotiating mutually advantageous arrangements for trade, security and so on.
Surely one of the reasons the actual treaty is so much longer than the abbreviated simplified form in Wiki is to try to eliminate ambiguities?
I’d imagine they haven’t succeeded in that, because no-one ever does, but a shortened version will always be less accurate won’t it?
ramone:
Still no one seems to realise the EU needs us more than we need them . They will only trade under their terms , try telling German Swedish French Italian Belgian car commercial vehicle manufacturers that . I think the Germans sell more cars here than anywhere else in Europe . We will need travel visas to stay in EU countries for extended trips but not holidays , how convenient for Spain and Portugal take our tourists out of those two countries and see the reaction . This is a great opportunity for the few British car manufacturers over here and definitely DAF to make a killing . The EU will be pleading with us to deal with them ,can you imagine the bosses at BMW AUDI and Mercedes looking at their stock of unsold RHD cars sat rotting away because the EU want to play games .
Well seems to me that many in this country don’t seem to notice that we both need each other to have a stable future.
Does it really matter who looses most, if we BOTH loose?
If course Merc BMW etc won’t have stocks of unsold rhd cars. They are all made to customer order on the line.
Will EU makers be happy about a decrease in their market? Of course not. As you rightly say a poorer British economy won’t be buying so many luxury imports.
DEMOCRACY has this disappeared from the shores of this country, we had a vote and the result of that vote was to leave plain and simple, there was never a mention of a deal being negotiated that was not on the voting slip just leave or remain, the Government never thought they would lose and all the remainer’s now say they did not know what was involved, well I did only two choices and you put your mark where you wanted. The problem was a lot could not be bothered to get off there sorry asses to vote as they thought it was a sure fire result to stay in.
What really is bugging me now is why the hell the Government thinks they have a right to a vote on weather to accept TM’s deal or not, they should not even be taking that vote, what happens if it gets put down, do they keep on having votes till they get the result they want, NO DEMOCRACY has definitely left these shores a sad day for all, Buzzer.
Buzzer:
DEMOCRACY has this disappeared from the shores of this country, we had a vote and the result of that vote was to leave plain and simple, there was never a mention of a deal being negotiated that was not on the voting slip just leave or remain, the Government never thought they would lose and all the remainer’s now say they did not know what was involved, well I did only two choices and you put your mark where you wanted. The problem was a lot could not be bothered to get off there sorry asses to vote as they thought it was a sure fire result to stay in.
What really is bugging me now is why the hell the Government thinks they have a right to a vote on weather to accept TM’s deal or not, they should not even be taking that vote, what happens if it gets put down, do they keep on having votes till they get the result they want, NO DEMOCRACY has definitely left these shores a sad day for all, Buzzer.
It’s obvious that the ‘vote’ was only going to be recognised and enforced on the country as a vote if the result was remain but an ‘opinion poll’ of it was leave.Also bearing in mind the contradiction between Cameron’s lies v the fact that the Referendum Act was worded so as to make any result non binding on parliament. Which explains why MP’s think they have the right to disregard or alter that decision.On that note the Leave side would be better off by now changing its position to one of to hell with settling this by way of referendum anyway on the grounds that no one has the right to vote the country out of existence and into being a vassal state of Juncker’'s etc stinking EU.If the Queen and her forces are against us in that then to hell with them too.
As for the lies of of those like Spardo,that the agenda is not one of sealing us into a Federal European superstate with a Federal army to enforce its will on the collective,or the idea that European majority vote deciding our fate equals so called ‘democracy’,that’s as laughable as Heath’s claims that we were joining a ‘common market’ while burying FCO 30/1048.
Buzzer:
The problem was a lot could not be bothered to get off there sorry asses to vote as they thought it was a sure fire result to stay in
.
So what you are saying is that you think that the majority in the country really are remainers then? Interesting,
No wonder you are so against a 2nd vote when everybody may turn out.
You’re obviously so fanatically biased in favour of your stinking EU Federation that you can’t even manage to think that what he actually meant was that we don’t actually know because they never voted.Bearing in mind that the turnout as it stands was far higher than we generally elect any government in parliament on.Which leaves the possibility that the turnout was actually higher and it did vote massively in favour of Leave with that vote being lost/destroyed according to usually expected EU type standards of vote rigging it’s just that someone forgot to destroy/lose enough.Just as Le Pen was robbed of victory over your hero Macron by massive electoral fraud.
It’s clear that the division between Nationalism v Federalism can’t possibly be settled by democratic methods as proved through history.We can include the Soviet and ■■■■ invasion of Poland and the JNA’s actions against secession in the former Yugoslavia in that.
Also bearing in mind that no one has the right to vote the country out of existence as a sovereign nation state.
Buzzer:
The problem was a lot could not be bothered to get off there sorry asses to vote as they thought it was a sure fire result to stay in
.
So what you are saying is that you think that the majority in the country really are remainers then? Interesting,
No wonder you are so against a 2nd vote when everybody may turn out.
Second vote Spardo?
Surely this would be a third vote,as the first one,in the 70`s to join up,second 2016 to leave?
Is there EVER going to be a case for another referendum,(presuming Brexit happens in one form or another),in 10.20.30,40 years?Or will certain members still be shouting we voted out,give us out.As you did in 72,except then, that was we voted in.
On a sidenote,have you such a thing over there as a referendum commission?A totally independent authority that gives impartial views on what your X means.
Recent refernda over here have not just been as easy as yes or no,there is so much more to it than that,as is proven with your own woes over there.The referendum commission sends out a booklet to each and every registered voter in the state explaining the impact of their yes or no vote.
Maybe that may have been a good idea in 2016,rather than a simple yes or no.
Buzzer:
Getting back to the business of Brexit, Buzzer
There may well be a good reason why many remainers don’t ‘realise these FACTS’
Could it possibly be, because they aren’t facts?
Non of the so-called facts appear anywhere in my reading of the Treaty of Lisbon, though I do admit I am not a lawyer and certainly not someone who gets off on reading through whole treatys, but, a quick read through this:
mentions not one word of that nonsense, none at all, and in fact turns up some interesting facts not appearing above.
For instance it gives:
Any country the legal right to leave.
Introduces qualified majority voting in more than 45 policy areas of Council of Ministers
that is 65% of European citizens. Compare that with the 52% of UK voters who voted to leave.
a more powerful parliament (thus anwering the oft and eroneously repeated jibes about lack of democracy)
Gives UK slightly more MEPs than before but at the same time giving Germany slightly less
An EU army can only come into force with total unanimity
Absolutely no mention of 2022 or 13 years after the treaty in 2009
And no mention of the bloody queen, of England, the Netherlands, Spain, or anywhere else.
So where did you dig up all that fake news from Buzzer?
Care to share?
Just for the sake of accuracy The Queen is mentioned twice on the first page of the Lisbon Treaty, together with all the other heads of member states and then again much later.
ramone:
Still no one seems to realise the EU needs us more than we need them . They will only trade under their terms , try telling German Swedish French Italian Belgian car commercial vehicle manufacturers that . I think the Germans sell more cars here than anywhere else in Europe . We will need travel visas to stay in EU countries for extended trips but not holidays , how convenient for Spain and Portugal take our tourists out of those two countries and see the reaction . This is a great opportunity for the few British car manufacturers over here and definitely DAF to make a killing . The EU will be pleading with us to deal with them ,can you imagine the bosses at BMW AUDI and Mercedes looking at their stock of unsold RHD cars sat rotting away because the EU want to play games .
Well seems to me that many in this country don’t seem to notice that we both need each other to have a stable future.
Does it really matter who looses most, if we BOTH loose?
If course Merc BMW etc won’t have stocks of unsold rhd cars. They are all made to customer order on the line.
Will EU makers be happy about a decrease in their market? Of course not. As you rightly say a poorer British economy won’t be buying so many luxury imports.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
It’s a very long time since Mercedes and BMW only built cars to order, if that were ever entirely true, they are always carrying unsold stock although I think it’s fair to admit that in the scheme of things nobody will be losing sleep over them, they can always be modified to suit other RHD markets. I believe it is true though that should the EU be foolish enough to implement trade barriers then those manufacturers with final assembly here would stand to gain in the UK market.
ramone:
Still no one seems to realise the EU needs us more than we need them . They will only trade under their terms , try telling German Swedish French Italian Belgian car commercial vehicle manufacturers that . I think the Germans sell more cars here than anywhere else in Europe . We will need travel visas to stay in EU countries for extended trips but not holidays , how convenient for Spain and Portugal take our tourists out of those two countries and see the reaction . This is a great opportunity for the few British car manufacturers over here and definitely DAF to make a killing . The EU will be pleading with us to deal with them ,can you imagine the bosses at BMW AUDI and Mercedes looking at their stock of unsold RHD cars sat rotting away because the EU want to play games .
Well seems to me that many in this country don’t seem to notice that we both need each other to have a stable future.
Does it really matter who looses most, if we BOTH loose?
If course Merc BMW etc won’t have stocks of unsold rhd cars. They are all made to customer order on the line.
Will EU makers be happy about a decrease in their market? Of course not. As you rightly say a poorer British economy won’t be buying so many luxury imports.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
It’s a very long time since Mercedes and BMW only built cars to order, if that were ever entirely true, they are always carrying unsold stock although I think it’s fair to admit that in the scheme of things nobody will be losing sleep over them, they can always be modified to suit other RHD markets. I believe it is true though that should the EU be foolish enough to implement trade barriers then those manufacturers with final assembly here would stand to gain in the UK market.
If there were to be trade barriers (if it’s a hard Brexit, won’t that be obligatory under WTO rules?)
Would companies be happy having plants in the UK? Complete cars and components will be liable for tariffs, so would they want tariffs coming into the UK (one market) or from the the UK into all the EU markets?
The UK is currently a large market, true, but is nowhere near as big as the rest of the EU combined, so tax one small part of the market or a much larger part?
Franglais:
The UK is currently a large market, true, but is nowhere near as big as the rest of the EU combined, so tax one small part of the market or a much larger part?
There’s a massive difference between the ‘size’ of the ‘potential’ EU market v the ‘actual’ sales figures in the EU market.IE the average East Euro/Greek/Spanish peasant nor Patriotic German/French/Italian has never bought British.On that note :-
1 You’ve actually admitted yourself that the domestic car market is worth more to UK based manufacturers like Jaguar than the EU export market is to them.
2 The EU sells more cars to us than it buys from us.
3 In view of 1 and 2 feel free to explain how trade tariffs between EU and UK wouldn’t benefit Brit manufacturing at the expense of the Germans ?.In addition to the manufacture of UK components being more attractive in that environment as opposed to assembly of imported components.Oh wait you already knew that which is why you always conveniently over look the strength of the UK car ( manufacturing ) industry pre EEC.
ramone:
Still no one seems to realise the EU needs us more than we need them . They will only trade under their terms , try telling German Swedish French Italian Belgian car commercial vehicle manufacturers that . I think the Germans sell more cars here than anywhere else in Europe . We will need travel visas to stay in EU countries for extended trips but not holidays , how convenient for Spain and Portugal take our tourists out of those two countries and see the reaction . This is a great opportunity for the few British car manufacturers over here and definitely DAF to make a killing . The EU will be pleading with us to deal with them ,can you imagine the bosses at BMW AUDI and Mercedes looking at their stock of unsold RHD cars sat rotting away because the EU want to play games .
Well seems to me that many in this country don’t seem to notice that we both need each other to have a stable future.
Does it really matter who looses most, if we BOTH loose?
If course Merc BMW etc won’t have stocks of unsold rhd cars. They are all made to customer order on the line.
Will EU makers be happy about a decrease in their market? Of course not. As you rightly say a poorer British economy won’t be buying so many luxury imports.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
It’s a very long time since Mercedes and BMW only built cars to order, if that were ever entirely true, they are always carrying unsold stock although I think it’s fair to admit that in the scheme of things nobody will be losing sleep over them, they can always be modified to suit other RHD markets. I believe it is true though that should the EU be foolish enough to implement trade barriers then those manufacturers with final assembly here would stand to gain in the UK market.
If there were to be trade barriers (if it’s a hard Brexit, won’t that be obligatory under WTO rules?)
Would companies be happy having plants in the UK? Complete cars and components will be liable for tariffs, so would they want tariffs coming into the UK (one market) or from the the UK into all the EU markets?
The UK is currently a large market, true, but is nowhere near as big as the rest of the EU combined, so tax one small part of the market or a much larger part?
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
It is my understanding that WTO terms do not impose any tariff on componenta for assembly only on comleted vehicles. The UK takes a much higher percentage of The output of EU, particularly German car plants than the EU takes from UK plants. I am of the mindset that any and all barriers to trade are a mistake, but equally we must not forget that many “European” manufacturers have for years built cars outside of Europe and therefore voluntarily paid EU import duties, for instance VW in South Africa, BMW in South Africa, USA and Brazil, Mercedes in South Africa, USA, Brazil and Mexico and most recently Volvo to China. Firstly how many people realise that their new Merc wasn’t built in Stuttgart or that their new S90 has just come all the way from China on the train? But whilst it is true that we may loose out on some models all of these non EU built cars will actually be cheaper here, or more profitable to their manufacturer.
acd1202:
Just for the sake of accuracy The Queen is mentioned twice on the first page of the Lisbon Treaty, together with all the other heads of member states and then again much later.
Well I’m not really interested, but, your link did not seem to work. However I did follow several steps to find what you referred to but failed.
But as you seem to have found it and read it, can you enlighten us as to whether it actually says that the monarch can be replaced, dethroned or executed in 2022?
As a staunch republican since the power of thought developed in my brain, a little bit of me hopes it’s true.
