■■■■■■■ had their own E290 powered NGC unit pulling their hospitality trailer up and down the country. That was their test machine and I don’t know whether that was fitted in the late '70s or even the early '80s. The Falcon Freight unit which had an E290 left the factory on December 22nd 1977 and would have arrived in Jeddah ready for service in January 1978. But before we get too Carryfasted away, bear in mind that we don’t know for fact that Falcon Freight’s ERF had a big-cam engine: ‘ERF’ made it quite clear that it just might have been, in his opinion. 
And to be fair on Mr Betz, he did see sense in the end (see below). Robert 
ENGINES @ 16/03/15
Total number known to have NTC 335 engine = 38
Total number known to have NTC 290 (including 2 E290s) = 10
Total number uncertain of what engine = 28
Robert
Carryfast:
robert1952:
And to be fair on Mr Betz, he did see sense in the end (see below). Robert
0
Or proof that ze Germans lost ze war but won ze peace when CF decided if you can’t beat them join them by subbing for Betz with that 6x4 400 Big Cam powered SA before the East Euro competition got in on the act. 
And they all lived happily ever after! Robert
Carryfast:
robert1952:
And to be fair on Mr Betz, he did see sense in the end (see below). Robert [emoji38]
0
Or proof that ze Germans lost ze war but won ze peace when CF decided if you can’t beat them join them by subbing for Betz with that 6x4 400 Big Cam powered SA before the East Euro competition got in on the act.
It had an L10-250 [emoji38]
Hi,
Not quite ERF “European” I know but my query is concerned with over the water in a literal sense!!
I posted this query sometime ago on the ERF E and EC thread, it concerns the time when ERF was sold off to Western Star .
For some time the EC series were produced over there and ,I believe called the “Aurora”. Does anyone know if it was successful in that market or how it compared to the Yank trucks.
I believe it was 2012 when one was displayed at Gaydon, what a truck!! I think it was fitted with a ■■■■■■■ "Signature " engine , what out put I don’t know but it certainly looked good. It would be interesting to know how they compared to the locals, ie, Peterbilts and Kenworths and Macks.
Has anyone any knowledge about the EC’s life over there?
Cheers Bassman
With regard to our affection for the NGC or our resistance to it, I think we forget sometimes that we wear more than one hat. Many of us on this forum look at a single model like the NGC and appraise it either as a driver, as an operator or as an accountant. There is, of course, no such thing as a ‘best lorry’. There’s only such thing as a ‘best lorry’ for me as a driver; for me as an operator; for me as an accountant - or for that matter, for me as a mechanic. In all our discussions we need to make it clear which hat we are wearing in any given argument / sentence / scenario.
For example: if in 1977 I needed a LHD ERF 38-tonner with a Fuller 9-speed 'box for Continental work (yes, I know 38-tonners came out in '83 in UK, but let’s say we operated out of Dover or even Calais) - I would probably have chosen an ERF NGC 380 with ■■■■■■■ NTC 335 as a driver. As an operator, I might well have chosen the more frugal ERF B-series with a ■■■■■■■ 290. As an accountant I might well have chosen an MGG 380 with a 5MW cab and a Gardner 8LXB 240. Robert 
In 1977 I had a small fleet…
I had one of those too, it ws red and I think it had a silver box trailer.
Had a Mack wrecker with a nudge bar on it and Holmes lifting gear, that was busy as I also had a Ferrymasters Scammell Trunker with a tilt and well, it obviously never had a Gardner as it was always on the hook [emoji38]
I could probably retire if I’d kept all my toy lorries, apart from a bike, they were the only toys I ever had, so I built up quite a fleet. I also got quite a few promotional models as gifts from manufacturers when I was testing. I kept only one, which I gave to my Dad, it’s an IVECO in Ferrari race team colours to celebrate their first double when Schumacher started his monopoly of the “sport”
That’s still in the box and pristine, so worth a few quid to the right person.
I had an ERF too, it was a Dinky model, a little four wheeler, the one with the oval front grille. A KV?
Earlier in the thread, I posted an article about the operations in Jeddah of Cunard Arabian Middle East Lines (CAMEL). I pointed out that they ran 18 ERFs, all with 9-speed Fullers; that six of them were B-series 6x4s, that two of them were NGCs and that the rest were B-series 4x2s with day cabs and ■■■■■■■ NHC 250s in.
Today I learned that in addition to those ERFs, CAMEL had a number of GMCs. That got me reading the article again. The article doesn’t actually state that there were ‘only’ two ERF NGCs. I must have inferred that were two, simply because the picture only showed two of them. The text actually states: ‘Cross country working at 40 tonnes gvw or more calls for more power. Cunard operates a number of steel-cabbed ERF export-model tractors with ■■■■■■■ NTC 335…engines for such work.’
Of the 18 ERFs in their Jeddah depot, if six were B-series 6x4, then the other twelve were divided between the day-cabbed B-series and the NGCs. ‘A number of steel-cabbed ERF export-model tractors’ implies more than just the two I cited. There were clearly more. Robert
And while we’re on the subject of Jeddah, here’s another one of ‘Ronhawk’s’ pictures showing the rear of a Trans Arabia NGC with kids posing in the foreground. If you want to read more about the exploits of Ron, do visit the ever-entertaining Trans Arabia thread! Robert
Carryfast:
robert1952:
Earlier in the thread, I posted an article about the operations in Jeddah of Cunard Arabian Middle East Lines (CAMEL). I pointed out that they ran 18 ERFs, all with 9-speed Fullers; that six of them were B-series 6x4s, that two of them were NGCs and that the rest were B-series 4x2s with day cabs and ■■■■■■■ NHC 250s in.
Today I learned that in addition to those ERFs, CAMEL had a number of GMCs. That got me reading the article again. The article doesn’t actually state that there were ‘only’ two ERF NGCs. I must have inferred that were two, simply because the picture only showed two of them. The text actually states: ‘Cross country working at 40 tonnes gvw or more calls for more power. Cunard operates a number of steel-cabbed ERF export-model tractors with ■■■■■■■ NTC 335…engines for such work.’
Of the 18 ERFs in their Jeddah depot, if six were B-series 6x4, then the other twelve were divided between the day-cabbed B-series and the NGCs. ‘A number of steel-cabbed ERF export-model tractors’ implies more than just the two I cited. There were clearly more. Robert
Which leaves another question was there any reason why the extra power requirement couldn’t have been met by NTC powered B series ? assuming that option was on the list and assuming the NTC option wasn’t limited to just NGC/7MW’s.If so then the NGC seemed to be putting up a fight for market share against its in house ‘plastic’ ‘rival’ in those markets where and during the time when they were obviously pitched head on against each other and possibly for ‘reasons’ not just related to power requirement ?.
While after 1977 it seems that GM would/should have had an open goal in terms of sales in that type of market with the 92 series engined TM v the possibly/probably underpowered E290 engined B series at those type of gross weights.Especially in an environment where fuel costs were irrelevant. 
Woah CF! You may be jumping to some conclusions. The 6x4 B-series units had ■■■■■■■ 350s in them. The day cabbed B-series 4x2s were low-powered only because their duties involved unloading ships and undertaking local work. The NGCs were used for long distance road work and the 6x4 B-series were for destinations that involved off-road access. They were all working in an atypical environment.
To be honest, the whole point of my posting this information was not to stimulate more endless churning about automotive politics, but rather its purpose was to invite more detailed information about what I suspect to be further examples of NGCs in the service of Cunard in Jeddah. Robert
robert1952:
Carryfast:
robert1952:
Earlier in the thread, I posted an article about the operations in Jeddah of Cunard Arabian Middle East Lines (CAMEL). I pointed out that they ran 18 ERFs, all with 9-speed Fullers; that six of them were B-series 6x4s, that two of them were NGCs and that the rest were B-series 4x2s with day cabs and ■■■■■■■ NHC 250s in.
Today I learned that in addition to those ERFs, CAMEL had a number of GMCs. That got me reading the article again. The article doesn’t actually state that there were ‘only’ two ERF NGCs. I must have inferred that were two, simply because the picture only showed two of them. The text actually states: ‘Cross country working at 40 tonnes gvw or more calls for more power. Cunard operates a number of steel-cabbed ERF export-model tractors with ■■■■■■■ NTC 335…engines for such work.’
Of the 18 ERFs in their Jeddah depot, if six were B-series 6x4, then the other twelve were divided between the day-cabbed B-series and the NGCs. ‘A number of steel-cabbed ERF export-model tractors’ implies more than just the two I cited. There were clearly more. Robert
Which leaves another question was there any reason why the extra power requirement couldn’t have been met by NTC powered B series ? assuming that option was on the list and assuming the NTC option wasn’t limited to just NGC/7MW’s.If so then the NGC seemed to be putting up a fight for market share against its in house ‘plastic’ ‘rival’ in those markets where and during the time when they were obviously pitched head on against each other and possibly for ‘reasons’ not just related to power requirement ?.
While after 1977 it seems that GM would/should have had an open goal in terms of sales in that type of market with the 92 series engined TM v the possibly/probably underpowered E290 engined B series at those type of gross weights.Especially in an environment where fuel costs were irrelevant.
Woah CF! You may be jumping to some conclusions. The 6x4 B-series units had ■■■■■■■ 350s in them. The day cabbed B-series 4x2s were low-powered only because their duties involved unloading ships and undertaking local work. The NGCs were used for long distance road work and the 6x4 B-series were for destinations that involved off-road access. They were all working in an atypical environment.
To be honest, the whole point of my posting this information was not to stimulate more endless churning about automotive politics, but rather its purpose was to invite more detailed information about what I suspect to be further examples of NGCs in the service of Cunard in Jeddah. Robert
I’d guess that the whole question of NGC numbers would be inextricably linked to the production and market ‘politics’ of B series v NGC at the time when they were both in production together.In this case we know that the B series was obviously already being supplied to the customer in question at 350 rating which was obviously higher than the NGC’s usual stated rating.While I’d also guess that the B series was available in sleeper form from day 1.So the logical inference would be that it wasn’t ‘more power’ or lack of a sleeper option which would have swayed any decision in favour of ordering the NGC over B series.
Carryfast:
I’d guess that the whole question of NGC numbers would be inextricably linked to the production and market ‘politics’ of B series v NGC at the time when they were both in production together.In this case we know that the B series was obviously already being supplied to the customer in question at 350 rating which was obviously higher than the NGC’s usual stated rating.While I’d also guess that the B series was available in sleeper form from day 1.So the logical inference would be that it wasn’t ‘more power’ or lack of a sleeper option which would have swayed any decision in favour of ordering the NGC over B series.
My guess is that ERF was not able to supply LHD vehicles to Jeddah quickly enough and that in any case the NGCs were coming to the end of their production lives and may have been sold cheaply. Also, the choice of B-series would have been more about the availability of 6x4 units, because ERF were making them with double-drive, but not NGCs (apart from a one-off). Too many variables, I’d say, to second-guess the decisions of buyers at Cunard 40 years ago!
I suppose in the end, CF, the mis-match between your posts on here (which I have no desire to censor in any way) and other contributors is that in general the quest throughout this thread has been for historical evidence about what happened, how and when. Your posts tend to focus on what you think should have happened, how and when. Which reminds me of that fantasy picture I created at the beginning of this thread, of an ERF ‘Arabian’ with double-drive, a 7MW cab and 350 ■■■■■■■■ so I’ve re-posted it below to cheer you up! Robert
robert1952:
Carryfast:
I’d guess that the whole question of NGC numbers would be inextricably linked to the production and market ‘politics’ of B series v NGC at the time when they were both in production together.In this case we know that the B series was obviously already being supplied to the customer in question at 350 rating which was obviously higher than the NGC’s usual stated rating.While I’d also guess that the B series was available in sleeper form from day 1.So the logical inference would be that it wasn’t ‘more power’ or lack of a sleeper option which would have swayed any decision in favour of ordering the NGC over B series.
My guess is that ERF was not able to supply LHD vehicles to Jeddah quickly enough and that in any case the NGCs were coming to the end of their production lives and may have been sold cheaply. Also, the choice of B-series would have been more about the availability of 6x4 units, because ERF were making them with double-drive, but not NGCs (apart from a one-off). Too many variables, I’d say, to second-guess the decisions of buyers at Cunard 40 years ago! Robert
Thanks for that information Robert.The logical answer seems to be a combination of the first two possibilities in that case.But to me the NGC story will always seem to be all about a point in time when ERF was following two seperate parallel engineering directions at the same time but having already made up its mind which one it was going to follow with the B series.
I think our posts ‘crossed over’, CF, so scroll up and enjoy the ‘Arabian’.
Well, I’ll have time to ponder these strands of thinking for some time to come yet, as I have just started work today on MORE LORRIES OF ARABIA: ERF NGC.
Robert
