Maybe just a language barrier…
ERF-Continental:
I am really astonished about people thinking to be specialist with stating an ERF had an NTCE 290 while
pictures had the front bumper stating to have a NTC335 showed…that was NOT the case. Also jumping
to conclusions when a savoyard tilt was coupled stating it would be French…or again doubting it could
have been a demonstrator in France.Well, fair enough, apparently ALL input here was judged, controlled, verified and again doubted, sorry.
No comments or input anymore…strange thread, but thanks to all who had serious intentions/input!
Never believe what you read on bumpers. And it was Wobbe Reitsma, not me who claimed that the red and white unit you refer to was French. Nothing is controlled. This is a forum in which we share facts, speculations, opinion and information and try to put together something meaningful. This is totally dependent on people bringing something meaningful to the table.
There is nothing strange about this thread. In all my 1110 posts on this forum you are the only blogger who seems to have a problem with whatever I write.It can remain your problem. I made a valiant effort to respond to your recent ■■■■■■■ post, to validate your contributions and to help you to feel more included, now that you have returned to the forum. I hoped you would feel respected by my full response, which didn’t attack you or your post in any way whatsoever. Robert
For the record, here again is exactly what I wrote about the big-cam 290 engined NGC, about 20 pages ago:
‘One British NGC 420 was used by ■■■■■■■ as a training vehicle, complete with purpose-built trailer. It was registered HNV 59N and passed to Pountains heavy haulage, then Redcap Transport before eventually being scrapped in the late ‘nineties (Mick Jones made a photographic record of its dismantling). This vehicle was rumoured to have acquired a big-cam 290 engine, which weren’t produced when NGC 420s were built, so it probably replaced the original 335.’
No pictures of it have ‘335’ on the bumper and even if they did, that would refer to the original engine, and not to the subsequent 290 transplant. Robert
And here’s what I wrote on January 28th on Page 15: ‘Many of you will have noticed pictures of HNV 59N, an NGC 420 operated by ■■■■■■■ to pull their mobile training room / hospitality trailer around. It passed to Pountains (anyone got a pic of it in Pountain’s livery?) then to Redcap. It is believed to have had a big cam ■■■■■■■ 290 in it. Well these came on the market after NGC 420s ceased production so I imagine that it was either a prototype, or more likely, it replaced an earlier engine. Perhaps someone knows the story. Eventually, it was scrapped. Miraculously, Mick Jones recorded the scrapping with his camera. Here are some of his shots. Robert’
This sparked a lively debate about whether or not the big-cam 290 was in production in the mid-70s, about whether or not it was available in UK and, about why was it not used by ERF in the first place if it was available.
Bear in mind that this vehicle was OWNED by ■■■■■■■■ so they could put what ever they liked in it. I have contacted Mick Jones, who witnessed and photographed the extraction of the engine when the vehicle was scrapped. Perhaps he can confirm or refute the claim that it was a big-cam 290! Robert
Robert, just looked again at the pics of HNV getting scrapped. The ERF that it’s being loaded onto wouldn’t by any chance be one of Jona transport would it?. The reason I ask is I seem to remember GEH being sold to Jona transport. Thought it looked a bit like their livery. Didn’t they run a rare E series with the high roof similar to the Norseman one?
Having said all that, could be just me adding 2 and 2 and making 5.
One more thing on HNV is that when I was an apprentice at Ford & Slater of Leicester, i used to go across to the West Brom’ garage(which was next to Hall Brothers Steel if anyone can remember them)to cover holidays etc and HNV used to sit at the ■■■■■■■ outlet opposite with its trailer on. That would have been 1985 give or take 1 year.
Colin.
colinwallace1:
Robert, just looked again at the pics of HNV getting scrapped. The ERF that it’s being loaded onto wouldn’t by any chance be one of Jona transport would it?. The reason I ask is I seem to remember GEH being sold to Jona transport. Thought it looked a bit like their livery. Didn’t they run a rare E series with the high roof similar to the Norseman one?
Having said all that, could be just me adding 2 and 2 and making 5.
One more thing on HNV is that when I was an apprentice at Ford & Slater of Leicester, i used to go across to the West Brom’ garage(which was next to Hall Brothers Steel if anyone can remember them)to cover holidays etc and HNV used to sit at the ■■■■■■■ outlet opposite with its trailer on. That would have been 1985 give or take 1 year.
Colin.
Yes Colin: right first time! It is a Jona ERF. Here are a couple more pics of it. Cheers! Robert
Do you know what year HNV was broken Robert?. And do you know if it was Jona that bought GEH? Was Mick Jones the owner of Jona. (not normally known for my poetry by the way)
colinwallace1:
Do you know what year HNV was broken Robert?. And do you know if it was Jona that bought GEH? Was Mick Jones the owner of Jona. (not normally known for my poetry by the way)
I’ll email Mick again today, to follow up my question of the cam size with your other questions. I only know his office email address so I doubt if I’ll get an answer till after the weekend. Cheers, Robert
One of the six NGC420’s of Van Steenbergen with 335pk-indication as all had the ■■■■■■■ NTC335
installed…with reference to the relevant invoices and CDB-records!
Unfortunately Wobbe Reitsma assumed NTC290 installed, with is incorrect, same as Van Steenbergen
did NOT experienced the 5MW so history is now trustworthy again?
ERF-Continental:
One of the six NGC420’s of Van Steenbergen with 335pk-indication as all had the ■■■■■■■ NTC335
installed…with reference to the relevant invoices and CDB-records!Unfortunately Wobbe Reitsma assumed NTC290 installed, with is incorrect, same as Van Steenbergen
did NOT experienced the 5MW so history is now trustworthy again?
What a magnificent picture! I have to say that all Van Steenbergen’s ERF NGCs were really most photogenic: I think it was the combination of the vibrant livery, the gold-yellow visors and the omnipresence of tilts! Thank you for posting this, A-J.
I had a quick look at Wobbe Reitsma’s article ‘European Flyers’ in which he created his only list of NGCs, and he lists all the Van steenbergen ERF NGCs as 420s, but he does not specify 290 or 335. He DOES, however specify NTC 335 engines in his captions to the photographs, so it would be unfair to say that he got this wrong. In an email to me a couple of years ago he stated that they all had 335s.
Great pic, though! Robert
History and relevant data should be crisp and clear, otherwise people assume and think what they see
and what they read IS really the case.
OK, I now have the low-down from Mick Jones on HNV 59N and GEH 513N, as follows:
Mick originally sent HNV 59N to have the cab refurbished in 1998 and it lay in someone’s workshop until 2002 when he sent it elsewhere but he reports that in 2003 he had a sale and rather lost interest in the job. The chassis and the cab were scrapped in 2003. HNV didn’t have an engine when he brought it (it had been removed) but he was told it was a 290 Big Cam.
GEH was sold in the auction to some breakers in Cosely.
Jona is Mick’s nick name, so yes he owned the ERF E-series, and yes Colin you are right, he also had an ERF 410 with a prototype cab later being called the Olympic, like the Norseman job. Personally I always rather fancied one of those. Jerry Cooke told me that there were only about half a dozen made. Mick is going to send me some pictures when he gets back to work.
All the best! Robert
ERF-Continental:
History and relevant data should be crisp and clear, otherwise people assume and think what they see
and what they read IS really the case.Attached the relevant REVS-article in which Wobbe apparently sticks to ‘his’ NTC290 installation?
You are absolutely right on both counts:
- I totally agree with you that historical data should be clear where it is possible to make it so
- You have shown that Wobbe’s article entitled ‘Flemish ERFs’ contradicts his article called ‘European Flyers’ in declaring Van Steenbergen No. 9 a vehicle with a 290 instead of a 335. Well spotted, and thank you for drawing our attention to that detail.
Regards, Robert
The high roof E series was not a prototype, it was available from ERF as a special order option, as was a medium height cab on the EC. Britax also ran a High roof E series draw bar outfit on european work delivering their products. Medium height EC models were ran by Leicster’s, C Pike, Whitworth’s, Plevin’s and Rawcliffe’s, to name a few. Think the High roof Jona ran started in the S Jones fleet. it was only offered for last couple of years of production and was’nt marketed in a big way, so very few were built. The medium height EC examples on the other hand were available from 93 and throughout EC production. This option was also carried over to the ECX as a special order option, with Bowrings and Leicster’s being customers for it.
I think the high roof E series was a fine looking motor, wished they had offered that from the start! 
Chris.
STRAIGHT EIGHT:
The high roof E series was not a prototype, it was available from ERF as a special order option, as was a medium height cab on the EC. Britax also ran a High roof E series draw bar outfit on european work delivering their products. Medium height EC models were ran by Leicster’s, C Pike, Whitworth’s, Plevin’s and Rawcliffe’s, to name a few. Think the High roof Jona ran started in the S Jones fleet. it was only offered for last couple of years of production and was’nt marketed in a big way, so very few were built. The medium height EC examples on the other hand were available from 93 and throughout EC production. This option was also carried over to the ECX as a special order option, with Bowrings and Leicster’s being customers for it.
I think the high roof E series was a fine looking motor, wished they had offered that from the start!
Chris.
I agree: I always rather fancied one! Here are a few pics I’ve found of high-roofed E-series units, just to divert the thread for a moment. The last two pics showing the Norsman unit, are relevant to the thread in that they were LHD and therefore successors to the NGC ‘European’! Robert
robert1952:
OK, I now have the low-down from Mick Jones on HNV 59N and GEH 513N, as follows:Mick originally sent HNV 59N to have the cab refurbished in 1998 and it lay in someone’s workshop until 2002 when he sent it elsewhere but he reports that in 2003 he had a sale and rather lost interest in the job. The chassis and the cab were scrapped in 2003. HNV didn’t have an engine when he brought it (it had been removed) but he was told it was a 290 Big Cam.
GEH was sold in the auction to some breakers in Cosely.
Jona is Mick’s nick name, so yes he owned the ERF E-series, and yes Colin you are right, he also had an ERF 410 with a prototype cab later being called the Olympic, like the Norseman job. Personally I always rather fancied one of those. Jerry Cooke told me that there were only about half a dozen made. Mick is going to send me some pictures when he gets back to work.
All the best! Robert[/quot
Thanks for chasing that up Robert. Shame neither of the 2 survived, but it would have taken a very skilled “tinsmith” to take all the rust out of GEH and have enough left to work with. Lets hope the “R Collin NGC” doesn’t suffer the same fate. I guess that and Mr Corbishly’s are the only 2 left?.
Colin.
10
[/quote]
Love the caption on this one, I’m sure that guy ran a Merc with an EPS box before (featured in a early nineties Truck mag IIRC) so ANYTHING would’ve seemed like the best unit you’d ever run after one of those severely hamstrung german Bedfords. I went the other way once (not a confession - bear with me…) having driven mostly twinsplit or Fuller ERFs I had a disastrous driving assessment on a Merc 1838 after literally a minute ‘tutorial’ from a driver beforehand. Awful things, you gad to clutch while you tapped the ‘joystick’ and leave the clutch down for an age or it would give you neutral. Agonisingly slow gearchange after the splits on a twinsplitter! I later went on to drive EPS + Telligent Mercs regularly so had the opportunity to really get to hate them. Sorry - am I straying off topic?
robert1952:
STRAIGHT EIGHT:
The high roof E series was not a prototype, it was available from ERF as a special order option, as was a medium height cab on the EC. Britax also ran a High roof E series draw bar outfit on european work delivering their products. Medium height EC models were ran by Leicster’s, C Pike, Whitworth’s, Plevin’s and Rawcliffe’s, to name a few. Think the High roof Jona ran started in the S Jones fleet. it was only offered for last couple of years of production and was’nt marketed in a big way, so very few were built. The medium height EC examples on the other hand were available from 93 and throughout EC production. This option was also carried over to the ECX as a special order option, with Bowrings and Leicster’s being customers for it.
I think the high roof E series was a fine looking motor, wished they had offered that from the start!
Chris.I agree: I always rather fancied one! Here are a few pics I’ve found of high-roofed E-series units, just to divert the thread for a moment. The last two pics showing the Norsman unit, are relevant to the thread in that they were LHD and therefore successors to the NGC ‘European’! Robert
The first 3 photographs there are actually full roof deflectors, originaly concieved by Rowntree’s i believe?. But i seem to remember Kevin Fullard fitted this air kit to his B series ‘Cajun Queen’ and converted it into high roof sleeper. The ERF featured in Truck & Driver some time ago.
The Norsman E14 does look the part, apparently the owner much prefered it to the Mercedes it replaced.
Chris.43210
I can see why you think ERF only saw the ‘European’ as a stop-gap measure, Saviem; but what I can’t understand is what they thought was going to happen next. The ‘European’ model subsequently morphed into the LHD B-series ‘European’ (as it was half-heartedly called at its inception), which itself did no better than the NGC model before it. A stop-gap measure implies something substantial to follow - but it all fizzled out instead. Robert
[/quote]
Evening all, Robert, I really think that the truth lies in the fact that the ERF managements ideas for the future were influenced by the facts that:
The UK was the largest Truck, (I hate that word…lorry is the real one)! market in Europe…what suited the UK was paramount, Europe, with its low volumes, (and universally static economies), was second…
Therefore they produced for the volume market where revenue was assured,…Europe was, (at that age), a seperate “detached” market…
The subsequent B Serie was by and large the equal, (with a ■■■■■■■ Fuller driveline), of anything that Europes manufacturers could produce… and despite the UK “knockers”, the cab was very OK for its markets…
ERF simply did not have the financial “clout”, of its rivals to subsedise a real attack on Europe…contrast ERF with the financial “muscle” of the Agnelli Families Fiat…
To "buy " market share in France`s static recessionary market of the 70s, Fiat/Unics were available @60% of the price of a “home” produced Berliet! 35/ 38 tonne tractor unit!!!
How could ERF compete…even if they understood the market that they were going for!!!
Anorak has the clue, (and having “sucked in” so much information, let him be creative and develop his, well founded ideas…“Why did the American assembly ideas persist for so long”…a key thread…and one well worth developing…
Why did they??
Did the availability of “component engineering” give “undefunded assemblers” a shot at a market that really they should not have been competing within■■?
Interesting theory, with many, and very variable answers…
NMM is right ,translation often gets in the way of a question…I cringe to remember my request for directions to a WC, in a rather “swish” Paris Restaurant…using phrases learned on the assembly line at Saviems Blainville Factory…
Now ERF Continental has put a lot of work into his research on this particular product…and it is good…so keep him “on board”, it is a fascinating subject…
And talking about fascinating subjects…at last I have found, (I think), a good replacement cab for my decrepit F89…even though its down in the Jura…(and Jura men are even harder to deal with than the Dutch…or the Scots…
I shall contemplate my strategy over (several), king Bollingers…
Cheerio for now.
Saviem:
I can see why you think ERF only saw the ‘European’ as a stop-gap measure, Saviem; but what I can’t understand is what they thought was going to happen next. The ‘European’ model subsequently morphed into the LHD B-series ‘European’ (as it was half-heartedly called at its inception), which itself did no better than the NGC model before it. A stop-gap measure implies something substantial to follow - but it all fizzled out instead. Robert
Evening all, Robert, I really think that the truth lies in the fact that the ERF managements ideas for the future were influenced by the facts that:
The UK was the largest Truck, (I hate that word…lorry is the real one)! market in Europe…what suited the UK was paramount, Europe, with its low volumes, (and universally static economies), was second…
Therefore they produced for the volume market where revenue was assured,…Europe was, (at that age), a seperate “detached” market…
The subsequent B Serie was by and large the equal, (with a ■■■■■■■ Fuller driveline), of anything that Europes manufacturers could produce… and despite the UK “knockers”, the cab was very OK for its markets…
ERF simply did not have the financial “clout”, of its rivals to subsedise a real attack on Europe…contrast ERF with the financial “muscle” of the Agnelli Families Fiat…
To "buy " market share in France`s static recessionary market of the 70s, Fiat/Unics were available @60% of the price of a “home” produced Berliet! 35/ 38 tonne tractor unit!!!
How could ERF compete…even if they understood the market that they were going for!!!
Anorak has the clue, (and having “sucked in” so much information, let him be creative and develop his, well founded ideas…“Why did the American assembly ideas persist for so long”…a key thread…and one well worth developing…
Why did they??
Did the availability of “component engineering” give “undefunded assemblers” a shot at a market that really they should not have been competing within■■?
Interesting theory, with many, and very variable answers…
[/quote]
I’d say that you’ve answered the question with your correct comments concerning that fact that an ERF ( and arguably the other mid/late 1970’s Brits like the TM or SA 400 etc ) when fitted with a decent big power ■■■■■■■ and Fuller driveline could at least match anything which the Euro/Scandinavian competition was offering.It seems obvious that development was being compromised in that regard by the combination of lack of cash and the backward demands in the all important domestic market.Added to which was the impossible hurdle of Euro market resistance to Brit built products regardless of the effort put into them.Especially the German market which I’m guessing would have been the main target export market in terms of Euro sales considering the performance of it’s post war economy compared to all the other European ones and even the British one for that matter.IE the fact is a mid/late 1970’s ERF,if it had been fitted with something like a 320-350 big cam and 13 speed fuller would have been a far superior product to the average gutless,inefficient,naturally aspirated Merc for example.But it’s obvious that German buyers would never have based the buying decision on performance and efficiency given the choice of buying British or German.
As for the domestic market how many British operators would have bought such a wagon at the time when it mattered.The result being the catch 22 of an insufficient market for the product and yet more reason for any potential investor not to invest in the development of British products in an already cash starved investment environment.
None of which had anything whatsoever to do with any arguable superiority of the all in house component manufacture idea because the fact is the bought in outside specialist produced American componentry in terms of at least ■■■■■■■ and Fuller was about as superior as superior got at the time.Assuming that it was the up to date big cam range in high enough output 300 hp + spec and 13 speed fuller were the chosen components in question.
Just a word of caution regarding the Van Steenbergen NGCs. A-J has verified for us, from CDB’s records that the six Van Steenbergen NGCs were originally supplied with NTC 335s. However, Wobbe Reitsma visited them after the end of their working lives, so before declaring his caption showing No.9 to have an NTC 290 ‘wrong’, we should first ascertain whether or not it hadn’t acquired a replacement engine later on. I’ll email him about this and enquire! Robert