My Choice would of course would be biased but either new(ish)
Or after a few trips.
There’d be only one choice. 
BTW The A series was fitted with a 250 ■■■■■■■ and also did a few trips
Eric Vick for me, in just got back off a winter trip condition
They did run them with full screen wire mesh stone protectors as some of the natives on route had the habit of lobbing the occasional rock at passing trucks just for fun. (some things never changes) The mesh lasted up until the first winter trip when it quickly blocked up with snow.
As to the did they/ didn’t they have night heaters? The honest answer is I can’t remember but prior the their arrival don’t forget most of the fleet didn’t even have sleepers. They were soon retro fitted with AC units and if the drivers requested night heaters, and these were available, they would have been fitted as well. At the time though there were some pretty dodgy propane heaters available which carried no guarantee you wake up in the morning.
Even with day cabs the drivers were out most of the week with boards across from the engine cover to the door. (Always remember to lock it or you’d end up head first out the cab) My Seddon was better as it had a engine cover level with the seats so I just had to blow up the air bed.
Suppose ERF did have a genuine, professional network of dealers (with service- and spare-parts facilities) in
major countries including Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Spain and for example Turkey:
-
How do you expect business would have been developped…this in regard with the competition as when
it comes to power, comfort etc ERF’s NGC was high ranked as a truck? -
What is your opinion on the life-cycle of the NGC towards the B-series in that situation of assured service?
-
What if a joint venture with other British-makes was established? Bear in mind that ■■■■■■■■ Fuller, Eaton
and Bendix Westinghouse offered widely obtainable parts, deliverable in short notice. -
The late Mr. Peter Foden would not force an existing (continental) dealer with other makes to become an
exclusive ERF-minded-dealer, as ERF would show advantages towards the continental makes. This is a quote
from a Motor Transport (May 20th 1977) interview Mr. Peter Wallage had. What’s your feeling saying?
Please reflect according relevant number…I will later scan some extra info on service-network, road-map etc.
There is also an interview with Mr. Bob W. Chadwick, sales director and Mr. John Hay.
Have a nice start of a good (working-)week! A-J
ERF-Continental:
Suppose ERF did have a genuine, professional network of dealers (with service- and spare-parts facilities) in
major countries including Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Spain and for example Turkey:
How do you expect business would have been developped…this in regard with the competition as when
it comes to power, comfort etc ERF’s NGC was high ranked as a truck?What is your opinion on the life-cycle of the NGC towards the B-series in that situation of assured service?
What if a joint venture with other British-makes was established? Bear in mind that ■■■■■■■■ Fuller, Eaton
and Bendix Westinghouse offered widely obtainable parts, deliverable in short notice.The late Mr. Peter Foden would not force an existing (continental) dealer with other makes to become an
exclusive ERF-minded-dealer, as ERF would show advantages towards the continental makes. This is a quote
from a Motor Transport (May 20th 1977) interview Mr. Peter Wallage had. What’s your feeling saying?Please reflect according relevant number…I will later scan some extra info on service-network, road-map etc.
There is also an interview with Mr. Bob W. Chadwick, sales director and Mr. John Hay.Have a nice start of a good (working-)week! A-J
(1) It would have helped, having more dealers across Europe, as we have already agreed. The unreliability/ build quality issues mentioned by some previous contributors would have eased, as the operators/fitters became familiar with the vehicles. Given time, the availability of secondhand parts would have improved, making the lorries more attractive to operators of older vehicles.
Some posts have marked the NGC down for poor cab heating/ insulation. On those practical grounds, it was not “high ranked” for comfort.
(2) The B series should have addressed the driver comfort deficiencies. The issue of rough/cheap/unfashionable interior fittings is a minor point- as long as the vehicle was reliable and did not cause actual discomfort, there was a place in the market for it.
(3) In the 1970s, Leyland’s European efforts were built around their own engine and axle, so there would not have been a common interest there. The other British assemblers, Foden and Seddon Atkinson, could have put some money into a shared network of ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ dealers but, as far as I know, neither make was particularly interested in building its European sales, so they did not.
(4) This sounds like a salesman’s boast. Why would a dealer want to offer a relatively unknown brand alongside an established one, unless he could sell the ERF at a lower price? Dedicated dealers, supported at the start by the manufacturer’s money, would be more committed to supporting ERF. The vehicles could be sold at a normal market price, protecting residual values.
The common denominator to all the above “what if?”s is time and money. More of both would have made it easy for ERF.
ERF-Continental:
Suppose ERF did have a genuine, professional network of dealers (with service- and spare-parts facilities) in
major countries including Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Spain and for example Turkey:
How do you expect business would have been developped…this in regard with the competition as when
it comes to power, comfort etc ERF’s NGC was high ranked as a truck?What is your opinion on the life-cycle of the NGC towards the B-series in that situation of assured service?
What if a joint venture with other British-makes was established? Bear in mind that ■■■■■■■■ Fuller, Eaton
and Bendix Westinghouse offered widely obtainable parts, deliverable in short notice.The late Mr. Peter Foden would not force an existing (continental) dealer with other makes to become an
exclusive ERF-minded-dealer, as ERF would show advantages towards the continental makes. This is a quote
from a Motor Transport (May 20th 1977) interview Mr. Peter Wallage had. What’s your feeling saying?Please reflect according relevant number…I will later scan some extra info on service-network, road-map etc.
There is also an interview with Mr. Bob W. Chadwick, sales director and Mr. John Hay.Have a nice start of a good (working-)week! A-J
With regard to No.2, the people I spoke to said the NGCs gave long and fairly trouble-free service. Wobbe Reitsma found the same, one Dutch example giving 15 years of service. Even in the arduous conditions of the desert with very heavy loads, they gave about 7 years of service to Trans Arabia, according to Jerry Cooke’s estimate. Robert 
@Anorak/Robert1952:
Thank you very much for starting and your reactions!
Herewith the promissed scans of Motor Transport 1977, however quite unclear
as paper has been affected by its age now…
Happy readings! A-J
ERF-Continental:
Suppose ERF did have a genuine, professional network of dealers (with service- and spare-parts facilities) in
major countries including Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Spain and for example Turkey:
How do you expect business would have been developped…this in regard with the competition as when
it comes to power, comfort etc ERF’s NGC was high ranked as a truck?What is your opinion on the life-cycle of the NGC towards the B-series in that situation of assured service?
What if a joint venture with other British-makes was established? Bear in mind that ■■■■■■■■ Fuller, Eaton
and Bendix Westinghouse offered widely obtainable parts, deliverable in short notice.The late Mr. Peter Foden would not force an existing (continental) dealer with other makes to become an
exclusive ERF-minded-dealer, as ERF would show advantages towards the continental makes. This is a quote
from a Motor Transport (May 20th 1977) interview Mr. Peter Wallage had. What’s your feeling saying?Please reflect according relevant number…I will later scan some extra info on service-network, road-map etc.
There is also an interview with Mr. Bob W. Chadwick, sales director and Mr. John Hay.Have a nice start of a good (working-)week! A-J
The fact is the only way that any manufacturer can set up a large scale dealer network is firstly if the sales projections justify the investment and if you’ve got the total commitment and co operation of the local service providers in question.As Tiptop’s comments ( rightly ) show the latter wasn’t there while anyone with any sense knew that the former was a total non starter in the case of Europe and the whole Euro project.
As for my own experience of working in a British manufacturing operation that was around 95% based on exports of trucks mostly if not totally based on American and British componentry.Did we have a dealer network in all those markets :no.Did we need one:no.Was Europe an important market for British exports:no.While the few European sales that we had were to the Eastern Bloc countries like Poland and Yugoslavia.At least the former of which has had no problem in keeping the Detroit powered wagon and it’s British made chassis,axles and fire fighting systems,that it bought in the 1970’s,in running condition to date ) just like many of the ones that we sold throughout the rest of the world from the States to the Far East. 
Dear all, as I seem to be having "computer " problems, I will be brief…
Dear old Bob Chadwick, with the best will in the world clueless about Europe, (and how to run a proper dealer network)…THAT IS …to look after the customer only!!!
Ended up at North West Trucks…think is about 88 when he turned up in my office with a Fire Extinguisher, because I had shot some moron regarding availability of some chassis I needed…good man…nice man…but like ERFs management in general…TOTALLY CLUELESS as to what the customer really needed…(wonder if Bob ever rebuilt that MGB on his drive)■■
Sadly…only Leyland learned how to look after customers in France…AEC had a good go in the Benelux, but the key that everyone is forgetting…the UK was the biggest volume market in Europe…bar none…so why bother outside■■?..Particularly if your Institutional shareholders were “baying” for greater earnings per share…you concentrated where those shares would grow…the home market.
Geoffrey dear friend, please stop…as the Monkey climbing a tree…showing your “bald bits”…the discourse is about the lorry market…and as Anorak rightly points out…grt your time frame correct…
Cheerio for now.
Saviem:
Dear all, as I seem to be having "computer " problems, I will be brief…Dear old Bob Chadwick, with the best will in the world clueless about Europe, (and how to run a proper dealer network)…THAT IS …to look after the customer only!!!
Ended up at North West Trucks…think is about 88 when he turned up in my office with a Fire Extinguisher, because I had shot some moron regarding availability of some chassis I needed…good man…nice man…but like ERFs management in general…TOTALLY CLUELESS as to what the customer really needed…(wonder if Bob ever rebuilt that MGB on his drive)■■
Sadly…only Leyland learned how to look after customers in France…AEC had a good go in the Benelux, but the key that everyone is forgetting…the UK was the biggest volume market in Europe…bar none…so why bother outside■■?..Particularly if your Institutional shareholders were “baying” for greater earnings per share…you concentrated where those shares would grow…the home market.
Geoffrey dear friend, please stop…as the Monkey climbing a tree…showing your “bald bits”…the discourse is about the lorry market…and as Anorak rightly points out…grt your time frame correct…
Cheerio for now.
Blimey Saviem in many cases you keep having a go at me for stating the facts and then you agree with those facts yourself.How can you say ‘every one’ is forgetting that it’s the domestic market that mattered ( in the case of the ‘lorry market’ ) when I’ve been telling you and every one else that on numerous different topics and got slaughtered,by most,including you,if I’ve read it right,for saying it. 
In addition to that it’s also obvious that ERF’s fortunes were tied to the colonial export markets like South Africa and NZ.In which case joining the EU was foreseeably going to result in a situation whereby we’ve opened up our most important domestic market to foreign competition for a crock of zb in the form of so called access to the European market in return that wasn’t even worth all the aggravation of bothering with in the first place being that it would have needed more than a miracle for the Brits to stand even the slightest chance in.
You can then add to that the obvious effect which joining the EU had on our trade with those old established colonial markets.
While it seems obvious that ERF’s management were confusing the need to provide some service back up for international running domestic customers with a full scale European export dealership operation.When even the former was a tall order let alone the latter.
As for the argument with Anorak concerning timelines.With all your expertise are you seriously suggesting that it was impossible to buy a Big Cam ■■■■■■■ in anything up to 400 form from 1976 on.If so I’d suggest you provide some proof other than some bs just based on the obvious limitations of what and when ■■■■■■■ UK were able to provide.Bearing in mind that I’ve already provided the relevant ( US ) production dates and,to my knowledge,there was nothing stopping the UK manufacturers like ERF from importing supplies of same on a direct basis.Although as Ive said the final irony would be if it was EEC rules that were stopping such a component import operation.The fact that you also don’t seem to have questioned the use of the 9 speed fuller v 13 speed seems to show a basic lack of understanding of exactly what was available and when in that regard.
Carryfast:
…are you seriously suggesting that it was impossible to buy a Big Cam ■■■■■■■ in anything up to 400 form from 1976 on.
Yes. The engine was introduced in 1977. The E290 went into European vehicles from 1978. This schedule would have been agreed between ■■■■■■■ and all their customers. Nobody complained.
Carryfast:
Blah blah…there was nothing stopping the UK manufacturers like ERF from importing supplies of same on a direct basis.
Of course. They could have gone straight to the door of ■■■■■■■■ headquarters and paid cash, at retail prices, just like anyone else. That would have made great business. Then, after doing all the installation design, development work and testing, they would have had a nice new engine range for the NGC420. With a bit of luck, they might have even built a couple of vehicles for sale, before the vehicle went out of production.
[zb]
anorak:Carryfast:
…are you seriously suggesting that it was impossible to buy a Big Cam ■■■■■■■ in anything up to 400 form from 1976 on.Yes. The engine was introduced in 1977. The E290 went into European vehicles from 1978. This schedule would have been agreed between ■■■■■■■ and all their customers. Nobody complained.
Carryfast:
Blah blah…there was nothing stopping the UK manufacturers like ERF from importing supplies of same on a direct basis.Of course. They could have gone straight to the door of ■■■■■■■■ headquarters and paid cash, at retail prices, just like anyone else. That would have made great business. Then, after doing all the installation design, development work and testing, they would have had a nice new engine range for the NGC420. With a bit of luck, they might have even built a couple of vehicles for sale, before the vehicle went out of production.
Firstly why would ERF have only been offered worse terms for component supply from the US producers than any other truck manufacturer buying from them.
The only date which I’ve seen which refers to ‘1977’ was a reference to the small cam still supposedly being the so called big hammer at that time while the big cam was just ‘coming into service’.When I’ve provided a specific production date of 1976 which I found having also been my,admittedly long time ago,memory of the relevant type of dates.
As for the final paragraph.It’s not realistacally likely to take very long to change the spec to a big cam 14 litre ■■■■■■■ as opposed to the small cam nor for that matter use the 13 speed instead of the 9 speed.There actually being stated use of both types of components in the wagon in question here on the topic anyway.In which cases assuming that we’ve got an upgraded 320 big cam 13 speed 420 in production as of at least 1977 maybe even 1976 why would we then need to take the thing out of production instead of giving it an extra year possibly two while working on it’s replacement.All of which sounds better and more logical than putting something built with obsolete technology in the form of the small cam and 9 speed up against a Scania 140 in the mid 1970’s. However if you’re saying that would only allow enough time to make maximum of two wagons in that time then it doesn’t say much for ERF’s production capacity. 
Carryfast:
Blah… Repetition…Lies…Blah
To summarise, finally: The NGC420 was built from 1973 to 1977. The E290 ■■■■■■■ was built from 1977 onwards and was fitted into Britsh chassis from early 1978. There is no way that an NGC would have had that engine.
ERF would have known about the Big Cam engine much earlier. They probably had pre-production engines to test. These would have gone into B-series chassis, in preparation for the launch of the B-series European (and British E290-engined) vehicles. They would never have considered selling the NGC with that engine, given that the launch of its replacement was almost exactly coincident with the introduction of the new engine. FFS.
I blame the British Government. What they should have done is cut off all trade with Europe, then closed down all UK engine manufacturing. Then they should have forced the British lorry manufacturers to fit Big Cam ■■■■■■■ 400 engines to every vehicle, and the operators to buy those vehicles. If this had happened in 1973, they could have sent the army over to the United States and forced ■■■■■■■ to produce an engine they had never even heard of. Everything would have been perfect.
What you forget is that ERF were concentrating on their biggest market, the home market.
Which is why they never went all in on the European concept, the MW and NGC ranges were toes in the water stuff, in much the same way as Scania did with the LB76, had they experienced the same success as Scania, the B series would/could have been developed further to stand above its peers in Europe.
Difficulty in developing a sales/service network meant that the European project was unsuccessful, mainly due to the late arrival of ERF into established markets.
With this in mind they made a half hearted attempt, as it was never going to be a success.
So not much point going to all the trouble of offering a new range of engines/transmissions…
[zb]
anorak:Carryfast:
Blah… Repetition…Lies…BlahTo summarise, finally: The NGC420 was built from 1973 to 1977. The E290 ■■■■■■■ was built from 1977 onwards and was fitted into Britsh chassis from early 1978. There is no way that an NGC would have had that engine.
ERF would have known about the Big Cam engine much earlier. They probably had pre-production engines to test. These would have gone into B-series chassis, in preparation for the launch of the B-series European (and British E290-engined) vehicles. They would never have considered selling the NGC with that engine, given that the launch of its replacement was almost exactly coincident with the introduction of the new engine. FFS.
I blame the British Government. What they should have done is cut off all trade with Europe, then closed down all UK engine manufacturing. Then they should have forced the British lorry manufacturers to fit Big Cam ■■■■■■■ 400 engines to every vehicle, and the operators to buy those vehicles. If this had happened in 1973, they could have sent the army over to the United States and forced ■■■■■■■ to produce an engine they had never even heard of. Everything would have been perfect.
Or there’s this version of history.The 420 was admittedly produced from 1973-77.The fuller 13 speed was produced from 1971 on.The Big Cam ■■■■■■■ in up to 400 form was available from 1976.Although unfortunately the UK ■■■■■■■ operation for some reason was subject to an anomaly which limited availability to just the 290 from at best 1977/78 with availability of the 320 from at best the early 1980’s.It’s clear at that point unless the Brits were able and willing to source and make use of the 13 speed fuller and the Big Cam ■■■■■■■ in at least 320 form,from the relevant earlier dates provided there,it was effectively a case of game over,assuming that you wanted to put an ERF up against the best that Europe and Scandinavia could provide during the 1970’s. We can add to that the fact that the thing ‘could’ have been fitted with a factory fit night heater from at least 1975 too instead of which we’ve got drivers describing being lumbered with freezing cabs during nights out in cold conditions.
My answer to that was make use of the 13 speed box and the Big Cam ■■■■■■■ in 320 form and put a night heater in the thing from the earliest dates possible as described there ‘before’ allowing it anywhere near a media road test. No need to invade the states so the army can be stood down. 
Although staying the hell out of the EU and imposing import restrictions against imported trucks would have worked wonders in that things could only have been better for the domestic manufacturers in that regard bearing in mind Saviem’s ( correct ) comments regarding the domestic market.
newmercman:
What you forget is that ERF were concentrating on their biggest market, the home market.Which is why they never went all in on the European concept, the MW and NGC ranges were toes in the water stuff, in much the same way as Scania did with the LB76, had they experienced the same success as Scania, the B series would/could have been developed further to stand above its peers in Europe.
Difficulty in developing a sales/service network meant that the European project was unsuccessful, mainly due to the late arrival of ERF into established markets.
With this in mind they made a half hearted attempt, as it was never going to be a success.
So not much point going to all the trouble of offering a new range of engines/transmissions…
That would all depend on how quick the domestic market is prepared to move forwards in regards to generally accepted levels of power to weight ratios,fuel efficiency/productivety and driver comfort.As we’ve seen that level of advance was glacial in most respects until when it did suddenly decide to move it was all too late for the Brits while the imports were then able to take advantage.As for me I’d really have liked to see Pat Kennet’s views concerning that last of the line 1977 320 Big Cam powered 13 speed 420 which I would have provided for the test having turned down his original request a couple of years earlier. 
newmercman:
What you forget is that ERF were concentrating on their biggest market, the home market.Which is why they never went all in on the European concept, the MW and NGC ranges were toes in the water stuff, in much the same way as Scania did with the LB76, had they experienced the same success as Scania, the B series would/could have been developed further to stand above its peers in Europe.
Difficulty in developing a sales/service network meant that the European project was unsuccessful, mainly due to the late arrival of ERF into established markets.With this in mind they made a half hearted attempt, as it was never going to be a success.
So not much point going to all the trouble of offering a new range of engines/transmissions…
This is the crux of it, in my opinion.
“Half-hearted” is a harsh summary of their efforts. Given that the other makes had had about 15 years’ head start to spread themselves around Europe, I reckon ERF’s 1970s bosses were commendably bold, in trying to catch up. It would be arrogant to say that they were wrong to even try. That map that ERF-C posted shows that the company had achieved much- the service network was about half a dozen black dots short of its “critical mass”. An earlier post said that ERF withdrew from Europe in 1979, having lost money on the venture. What a shame, that a well-conceived project should stall when it was almost complete.
The good thing about this thread, compared to the other ones about the demise of the British industry, is that we can test the our theories against the actual events at the time. ERF’s finances of the day will be known, as will the individual experiences of their customers. The subject matter is in sharp focus.
Carryfast:
…Blah blah blah…it was all too late for the Brits while the imports were then able to take advantage.As for me I’d really have liked to see Pat Kennet’s views concerning that last of the line 1977 320 Big Cam powered 13 speed 420 which I would have provided for the test having turned down his original request a couple of years earlier.
It was too late, so delay it another two years? A new lunacy appears to have taken hold. From wanting a more powerful engine in a 1973 lorry, you are now suggesting that the vehicle had a less powerful one four years later. Why not delay the venture another ten years and fit the vehicles with Gardner 180s?
Sliding from the macro to the micro for a moment during the intermission: I was pondering someone’s comment (Saviem? ERF-C?) about a mystery French olive-green NGC. I’ve looked at all the liveries of the known NGCs and none of them were in olive- green. The nearest thing was the two-tone green of Beresford’s. Ding! Then it occurred to me: allegedly, Beresford’s JDF 132N originally ran out of Calais on French plates, still in their livery - a sort of early flagging-out arrangement, I suppose. Can anyone substantiate this? And might this be the mystery green French lorry? Oh, and another question for Harry: did your ‘heap’ have the NTC 335 / Fuller 9 combination? The thick plottens. Robert:)
Hiya Rober