harry:
I have to say that I have no axe to grind or Brit bash agenda. I noticed a pic I had taken on here of my old mate Manfred and replied to the query . The trucks we are talking about were shoddy sheds. I couldn’t fault the lump. The ■■■■■■■ never missed a beat. But ,alternators ,water pumps ,compressors,airbags,and stuff made it difficult to go from A to B without drama. I had no idea this thread was about love affairs with British machinery . Any international driver would tell you the best truck is the one that don’t breakdown. As a plodder you couldn’t beat a DAF. Next for reliability came the Volvo , then Scanias . These days Mercedes is up there with the best of 'em. But where are the Whites and the ERFS? You just don’t see them- I wonder why? To hell with the politics I’d drive a North Korean truck if it did what it said on the tin. Would a plumber stick to British tools if they kept on breaking? Don’t think so?
When you’ve got a job to do the tools should assist you not impede you. Standing by the roadside with a boxfull of spanners don’t get the bills paid , in my experience anyway.
Firstly unless we’re talking about a remote water pump ( don’t think so ) then it would be safe to say that the water pump is more or less an integral fitted ancillary component part of the engine.As for the alternator who knows but there’d be a difference between alternators falling off because of bad mounting design as opposed to alternators failing because of bad alternator design/quality.Knowing the markets and all the different types of trucks where ■■■■■■■ installations were used we can probably count out bad alternator mounting design as we can the water pump mounting and water pump quality standards.Which then just leaves the question of possibly zb alternators regardless of where they were made although that would be an interesting question.In which case we’ve got an ongoing alternator issue that’s then been exaggerated into one of all ■■■■■■■ engine installations being associated with dodgy water pumps and numerous ancillary components falling off all over the place etc etc etc.
Whatever the answer it seems obvious that it didn’t cause the colonial markets to all rush out and dump their ■■■■■■■ powered Brit wagons at the side of the road in favour buying DAF’s.On the contrary they actually came back and bought more and kept running them as long as possible after the yanks had killed the Brits off to prevent internal competition.
The real issue in this case is the naive stupid ( possibly even corrupt in the case of the respective uk and euro government ministers involved in putting us in ) zb’s who supported the Euro project and who thought that they’d ever see a picture like that taken in a German,Dutch,and French transport yard instead of an NZ one.
Sorry,Carry, but I’m a driver: Geo-Political/Tech data goes straight over my head. The truck behaves itself or it don’t.Love to tell you stories about great UK trucks,but I’d be telling lies. Happiest day of my life when I got my first Swedish spec F88.That was when Atki wooden frame half cabs were king o’ the road.
harry:
Sorry,Carry, but I’m a driver: Geo-Political/Tech data goes straight over my head. The truck behaves itself or it don’t.Love to tell you stories about great UK trucks,but I’d be telling lies. Happiest day of my life when I got my first Swedish spec F88.That was when Atki wooden frame half cabs were king o’ the road.
As a driver if it was me I’d prefer to drive either of those two in the pic,being that you can bet they’ll be the usual colonial spec of ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ as opposed to any contemporary zb synchro box Euro or Scandinavian heap.The same would apply in the case of the ERF European v that zb Scandinavian screamer the F88.Although I’d certainly be cursing the performance and fuel comsumption of that idiotic spec of small cam and 9 speed instead of big cam 320-400 and 13 speed at least from 1976 on.Assuming that ERF’s management had been made to see sense in that regard you’re going to need a V8 Scania to even get close.As for bits falling off who knows but as I said the colonial market customers generally knew/know what they were/are doing.Unlike the UK one and it’s equally stupid government.
Well said Harry and long overdue,a nice dose of clarity with the rose-tinted removed.I’m not bothered what I drive-and we get what we are given on a nightly basis-but the fact is indisputable that if UK wagons had been up to the job and better than imports on a consistent basis, and of course many did well for many operators such as Saviem with his hire fleet, then operators would have continued to aquire them in substantial numbers and who ever owned the make/brand/factory may well have kept manufacturing here.
You do get the impression sometimes that ERF and Foden were trying to be too radical and there is nothing wrong with that, but without the sales and production infrastructure to move things along, maybe this was the case with the “European”.Like yourself I’m not having a dig at UK built tackle per say,nobody believes me when I tell them a fixed-head Buffalo was one of the best wagons I have ever used(as opposed to drive if that makes sense). At the time I was alternating with that and a LP Merc and just like the Leyland I had a couple of roadside breakdowns with that and both vehicles were soon going again,none of em are perfect. In the mid 90’s we had a ERF in on that Fuel Duel thing, it beat the foreigners hands down though I rightly predicted we wouldnt be having anything from Cheshire.We were working with a couple of outfits at the time who were 100% ERF and would’nt have anything else and were happy to send them over the water. We did have a EC11 on spot hire for a while around 2001 and several of us were more than impressed by its overall usability.
8LXBV8BRIAN:
Carryfast have you ever worked on any ■■■■■■■ engines fitted in motors from the 1975 ish era
To be fair my only first hand experience,then and since,other than as just a driver,with chassis with ■■■■■■■ motors was with the V8 903 not the 14 litre 6.At that time I was involved with the manufacture of emergency vehicles in which Detroit not ■■■■■■■ was the main choice of power units and it’s those which I’m more familiiar with.However it’s obviously the 14 litre 6 cylinder ■■■■■■■ which had the most market acceptance in the haulage application market at least here.Wether Detroit was considered the better all round choice than ■■■■■■■ at the time in the worldwide haulage market is another question.So what’s your point ■■.
I have to tell you Carry when I got my first Volvo it was many,many years later before the ERF EURO raised its head & they had learned nothing about cab build. Shed would be a compliment. No engine,no heater working,perma frost on the ground in Alsace ,it was a v.draughty place to be .It was outside Felix’s & the scumbag & brother in law knew I was stuffed & refused to rent me a room because I had been using Marcels a few K’s down the road,forgetting I had spent good money for years. No fond memories,just v.careful to ask the make of truck before I took a job after that.
Ah! Now I think I know the problem. My Egyptian server refuses to permit me to cut & paste script or to upload pics onto TruckNet (presumably because it thinks TN is a subversive social networking device) but it will allow me to slip these little sentence in, typed directly. Later in the week I have to pay a flying visit to UK to tidy up some affairs, so I will take that opportunity to blast you all with more of my rantings about the NGC along with some cuttings, articles and other evidence for you to pick over at your leisure, me hearties! By the way, I appreciate Harry’s very useful non-rosy specs input here. As I’ve said before on this thread, no operator or accountant ever selected a tractive unit for its ‘fun to drive’ factor, but we drivers can still blog about such motors with glee!!! Robert
harry:
I have to tell you Carry when I got my first Volvo it was many,many years later before the ERF EURO raised its head & they had learned nothing about cab build. Shed would be a compliment. No engine,no heater working,perma frost on the ground in Alsace ,it was a v.draughty place to be .It was outside Felix’s & the scumbag & brother in law knew I was stuffed & refused to rent me a room because I had been using Marcels a few K’s down the road,forgetting I had spent good money for years. No fond memories,just v.careful to ask the make of truck before I took a job after that.
Ironically that’s something like what the Marathon was like during a cold night out in UK let alone a continental winter and I’ve been crucified on the ERGO topic for saying what a piece of junk that thing was bearing in mind that to add insult to injury the thing had no room in it unlike the ERF obviously has.However all the available information seems to suggest that the ERF was a more comfortable place to be than the Marathon ?.Which just leaves the question that even an F10 without a night heater was just as cold a place to be during a night out as the Marathon was without the engine being run with the heater on.So the question for Robert 1952 is how good was the heater in the ERF and who would spec an international running wagon in the mid 1970’s without having a night heater fitted and working in it.In which case unless you’ve got total systems failure at least you could keep the cab warm even if the engine couldn’t be run and/or even if the heater was no good.
Carryfast:
Firstly unless we’re talking about a remote water pump ( don’t think so ) then it would be safe to say that the water pump is more or less an integral fitted ancillary component part of the engine.As for the alternator who knows but there’d be a difference between alternators falling off because of bad mounting design as opposed to alternators failing because of bad alternator design/quality.Knowing the markets and all the different types of trucks where ■■■■■■■ installations were used we can probably count out bad alternator mounting design as we can the water pump mounting and water pump quality standards.Which then just leaves the question of possibly zb alternators…Blah blah… uk and euro government… blah blah…
You have missed the obvious reason for ancillaries breaking off one make of vehicle but not another, when both are fitted with the same engine- chassis-borne vibration and shock loading. I mentioned this before, but you did not read or understand it then.
You clearly have no education, training or even practical experience of engineering. Please desist from mentioning it again, out of respect for the many on this forum who have.
Carryfast:
Firstly unless we’re talking about a remote water pump ( don’t think so ) then it would be safe to say that the water pump is more or less an integral fitted ancillary component part of the engine.As for the alternator who knows but there’d be a difference between alternators falling off because of bad mounting design as opposed to alternators failing because of bad alternator design/quality.Knowing the markets and all the different types of trucks where ■■■■■■■ installations were used we can probably count out bad alternator mounting design as we can the water pump mounting and water pump quality standards.Which then just leaves the question of possibly zb alternators…Blah blah… uk and euro government… blah blah…
You have missed the obvious reason for ancillaries breaking off one make of vehicle but not another, when both are fitted with the same engine- chassis-borne vibration and shock loading. I mentioned this before, but you did not read or understand it then.
You clearly have no education, training or even practical experience of engineering. Please desist from mentioning it again, out of respect for the many on this forum who have.
Actually obviously knowing more about vehicle engineering at the time than you,considering that you obviously don’t even know what type of motor was available to put in a chassis and when,I actually asked the relevant questions,concerning those issues,in which pre production testing is generally the way that such issues were/are found and sorted ‘before’ the wagon gets into the hands of it’s customers.
But you obviously don’t seem to know that.Considering that,like you,ERF’s management also didn’t seem to be aware of the state of the art relating to available major componentry at the time maybe it’s possible that,like you,they also didn’t have a clue regarding the required test regime on it’s products.Who’s calling who challenged in knowledge of accepted automotive engineering now.
Carryfast:
Actually obviously knowing more about vehicle engineering at the time than you,considering that you obviously don’t even know what type of motor was available to put in a chassis and when,I actually asked the relevant questions,concerning those issues,in which pre production testing is generally the way that such issues were/are found and sorted ‘before’ the wagon gets into the hands of it’s customers.
But you obviously don’t seem to know that.Considering that,like you,ERF’s management also didn’t seem to be aware of the state of the art relating to available major componentry at the time maybe it’s possible that,like you,they also didn’t have a clue regarding the required test regime on it’s products.Who’s calling who challenged in knowledge of accepted automotive engineering now.
I believe we have found some common ground. Neither of us knows what the hell you are talking about.
Carryfast:
Actually obviously knowing more about vehicle engineering at the time than you,considering that you obviously don’t even know what type of motor was available to put in a chassis and when,I actually asked the relevant questions,concerning those issues,in which pre production testing is generally the way that such issues were/are found and sorted ‘before’ the wagon gets into the hands of it’s customers.
But you obviously don’t seem to know that.Considering that,like you,ERF’s management also didn’t seem to be aware of the state of the art relating to available major componentry at the time maybe it’s possible that,like you,they also didn’t have a clue regarding the required test regime on it’s products.Who’s calling who challenged in knowledge of accepted automotive engineering now.
I believe we have found some common ground. Neither of us knows what the hell you are talking about.
No it’s you who obviously doesn’t know what the zb you’re talking about but then what can you expect from someone who thinks that applying an engine brake would do the same job as double de clutching or using the clutch brake during an upshift.Let alone thinking that ■■■■■■■■ big cam 1 engine range was limited to just a 290 when it was introduced and even that date being a year before you thought it was.
question that even an F10 without a night heater was just as cold a place to be during a night out as the Marathon was without the engine being
Not so,the Viking motors had well made,insulated cabs, that protected against the cold weather. The ERF designer assumed that M/E work was going to be a steady 40C+ .If I remember it had a false ceiling allowing the fresh air to circulate between the roof and ceiling area with vents to the cab . When you woke up in the morning you had ruddy face like a farmer because of the gale blowing around the shoddy tin box of a cab. I always wondered why Hans wore bobble hat & overcoat when he drove that thing.
newmercman:
Using the engine brake on an upshift will give a faster shift, just as a clutch brake does. Volvo’s I-Shift does exactly that
I think you’ll find that double decluctching an upshift or using a clutch brake is all about what you’re doing to slow down the input shaft and gear train nothing to do with slowing down the engine bearing in mind the actual job of a cluctch brake in putting the thing into gear from neutral with the engine idling.While slowing down the engine faster is to make sure that you don’t end up with situation of a wagon that’s losing road speed faster than engine speed during an upshift.
to start those ERFS & Whites in motion you had to hold down the clutch pedal for 30 seconds before you could select a gear. The ERF took two feet ,clutch was on its way out.
newmercman:
You best call the engineers at Volvo and tell them they’ve got it wrong then…
No read what I’ve written they’ve got it spot on.Which is why I’ve got an aluminium flywheel in my car.That’s to make sure that the engine slows down as fast as possible to match the road speed during upshifts.It’s not to slow down the geartrain to match the engine speed which is what you’re doing in the case of double de clutching or using a clutch brake.
newmercman:
You best call the engineers at Volvo and tell them they’ve got it wrong then…
No read what I’ve written they’ve got it spot on.Which is why I’ve got an aluminium flywheel in my car.That’s to make sure that the engine slows down as fast as possible to match the road speed during upshifts.It’s not to slow down the geartrain to match the engine speed which is what you’re doing in the case of double de clutching or using a clutch brake.
I bet that lightweight flywheel causes an increase in torsional vibration. Has the alternator fallen off yet?
