ERF 'European' (1975)

[robert1952]

[zb]
anorak:

ERF-Continental:
@Anorak: I hear you but who was the 3rd party subcontractor for the NGC a.k.a. A-series with 7MW-cab?

On the 7MW-cabbed lorry, I stand corrected. The report of cab problems on the Belgian-assembled 5MW lorries might support my argument but, as you say, the NGC was finished at Sandbach, alongside the many A and B series which gave reliable service. Therefore, Harry’s account of poor detail engineering may be explained otherwise. I offer you the example of the Seddon Atkinson 400, as reported in many threads on this forum: it was an assembly of ■■■■-ups, by a firm which made the most dependable old-fashioned British lorry of them all. It seems that the British firms just did not know how to engineer a sophisticated, 1970s-standard vehicle. They were, after all, attempting to compress the progress of a decade or two into one design step. The Continentals had done it gradually, learning along the way. Maybe the NGC420 was afflicted by the same malaise. If more posters can identify detail faults in the NGC, we will have a clearer picture.

I’ll bet Harry’s ‘heap’ was built on a Monday morning or a Friday afternoon! And that probably goes for any '70s British vehicle. Robert

[robert1952]

I’ve lots of good stuff yet to post, but TruckNet appears to be refusing permission for all but my one-liners at the moment. I thought it was the servers at the Egyptian end at first, or more sinister state intervention (social network activism) but it seems that the problem just might be at TruckNet’s end. Can anyone advise. Robert

[zb_anorak]

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
I have worked for a German firm, in Germany. The working shift was shorter than a typical British one, the dinner break was at least as long and the canteen was ausgezeichnet. There was a beer dispenser in the office and you could go for a smoke in the corridor. In short, the working conditions were lavish, by UK standards. Poke that down your chrome-plated stack.

That actually helps my case.The Germans were given preferential treatment by the bankers to keep everyone happy and to stop those like Heath from being zb scared of ever having to fight the zb’s again.While the British workers had to struggle on less pay doing more hours,while at the same time making a better product,when they were allowed to that is which wasn’t often,if ever.

Err… no it does not help your “case”.The first hand experience that I have, as a Brit working for a German company, is in direct contradiction to your assertion, based on imagined rhetoric, that the Germans would inflict poor working conditions on the British.

Regarding British workers making “a better product” than the Germans, this has been proved wrong at all points in history from the 1930s onward, in the automotive field at least.

[zb_anorak]

robert1952:
I’ve lots of good stuff yet to post, but TruckNet appears to be refusing permission for all but my one-liners at the moment. I thought it was the servers at the Egyptian end at first, or more sinister state intervention (social network activism) but it seems that the problem just might be at TruckNet’s end. Can anyone advise. Robert

Mine seems to be working OK. Here is a nice rear shot of a 5MW that I nicked from Flickr, just to prove it.

Blame the Egyptians or, to save time, get the loon to do it for you.

[3300john]

Hiya

[newmercman]

robert1952:
I’ve lots of good stuff yet to post, but TruckNet appears to be refusing permission for all but my one-liners at the moment. I thought it was the servers at the Egyptian end at first, or more sinister state intervention (social network activism) but it seems that the problem just might be at TruckNet’s end. Can anyone advise. Robert

Yes, get a German computer!!!

I’ll get my coat…

[zb_anorak]

3300John:
Hiya …the door,s infornt of the 5MW was the exp area. i think you could squeese 4 tractor units in.
Its a long time since i walked through those.
John

Hi John. Do you know why that tractor unit had a rear-exit exhaust pipe?

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:
I have worked for a German firm, in Germany. The working shift was shorter than a typical British one, the dinner break was at least as long and the canteen was ausgezeichnet. There was a beer dispenser in the office and you could go for a smoke in the corridor. In short, the working conditions were lavish, by UK standards. Poke that down your chrome-plated stack.

That actually helps my case.The Germans were given preferential treatment by the bankers to keep everyone happy and to stop those like Heath from being zb scared of ever having to fight the zb’s again.While the British workers had to struggle on less pay doing more hours,while at the same time making a better product,when they were allowed to that is which wasn’t often,if ever.

Err… no it does not help your “case”.The first hand experience that I have, as a Brit working for a German company, is in direct contradiction to your assertion, based on imagined rhetoric, that the Germans would inflict poor working conditions on the British.

Regarding British workers making “a better product” than the Germans, this has been proved wrong at all points in history from the 1930s onward, in the automotive field at least.

Try to keep up Anorak.Somehow for some reason you found yourself working in an obviously post war peacetime Germany which just happened to coincidentally involve you as a Brit enjoying the benefits of the average German worker since Germany lost the war but, with the help of those like Heath and the EEC,was given the peace.Together with that other lot who’d stayed out of it all in Sweden.

However I was referring to the working conditions which you would have been involved with as a worker, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organi … bert_Speer

‘if’ Hitler had won the Battle of Britain and then invaded the place.But didn’t having been beaten mostly by the quality and productivety levels of British engineering.Which,as usual,was at it’s best when doing more and better than anyone else with less resources.Contrary to the pro Euro lot that quality and productivety and the ability and initiative to do more with less,continued at the time we’re discussing here.But of course it was never going to be allowed to make this country more powerful economically than Germany and the new ‘Europe’ being built and run for Germany’s benefit in order to stop the fears of those like Heath.

Which might largely explain why manufacturers like ERF weren’t given the benefit of higher gross weight limits which at least would have provided more incentive for domestic customers to buy the right products at the right time when ERF needed to be able to sell them and the obvious limitations being applied to the amount of up to date US technology being allowed to be employed to that end.It might also explain why our government was happy to go along with such bs double standards applied in the Euro market against British products,in the form of so called ‘problems’,regarding the Euro market working with imperial/non metricated measurements and tools and the rejection of American engineering which we needed to employ to compensate for that lack of basic resources in the form of development cash.

While the Brits were expected to work happily with metricated Euro based engineering in the form of European imports.Then to add insult to injury the whole scam was then reinforced by making up bs myths concerning the quality and durability of British engineering.

No surprise that you then seem to wish to continue with those myths in the form of firstly trying to rig the dates of when that US technology which I’m referring to was actually available,but which for ‘some’ reason wasn’t used,and the continuing bs that British manufacturing capabilities weren’t up to the job.

[zzarbean]

Never has so much been written by so many about so few.

As I said before I only drove one of Eric Vicks Europeans solo from the yard down to Avonmouth for a tacho calibration or such like; Anyone who knows the yard will realise the most difficult part is from the gate to the church, more than one truck has been in that ditch. Once on the M5 a truly awesome experience.

From the sidelines I counted them out and counted them back in, I even pulled some of their trailers to Holland as they were too heavy for the UK. Apart from the Europeans there was also a Transcon and a square Merc 1924 (although that didn’t last very long.) Baghdad trips were usually 3 weeks with a one week turn around (if a truck came in on a weekend it was due out again on the following Sunday. The two Europeans were into the workshop and out again within 24 hours, the Transcon was always resident for twice as long usually with the Merc in front of it over the pit.
Yes of course bit’s fell off but most drivers could use a spanner (or gaffer tape) Irish Chris once came back with windscreen wipers operated by bits of string coming in through each door window on the A series (with 250 ■■■■■■■ and Jennings full sleeper).

Ferrymasters dipped their toe into the ME market with some Volvo F89’s and asked if they could run down with the lads (a common practice for first timers) The F89 cabs were fully kitted out with shelves and wardrobes and every comfort a budding European driver could desire (probably somewhere to store their desert wellies as well) Once they came off the tarmac at every stop more bits of kit was coming out through the doors having fallen apart.
Leyland also approached Eric to see if he would take a couple of Marathons down to Baghdad for an ‘in use’ road test; when asked if they were prepared to pay for recovery when they broke down the conversation petered out.

For ERF repairs in Germany I can only give one example of a major delay. I had an alternator light come on near Mayen in my E16 E series and finally decided it needed ‘looking at’ on some services on the 61 south of Koblenz. So a call out was made to a local mechanic who found the central spindle had broken and a new alternator was needed. Of course it was the ‘wrong’ type and one would have to be supplied from the UK. This was now midday and off he went saying he’d be back in the morning once the bit arrived. True to his word he was back by 10:00am the next morning and I was on my way within the hour, all in all just 24 hours lost.

[zb_anorak]

newmercman:

robert1952:
I’ve lots of good stuff yet to post, but TruckNet appears to be refusing permission for all but my one-liners at the moment. I thought it was the servers at the Egyptian end at first, or more sinister state intervention (social network activism) but it seems that the problem just might be at TruckNet’s end. Can anyone advise. Robert

Yes, get a German computer!!!

I’ll get my coat…

Hahaha! Superb. You might have missed, amidst the deluge of Leatherhead Lunacy, a reference I made to one of your previous posts, regarding the American norm of driving at undiminished speed on rough roads. Do their engines suffer from ancillaries breaking off, or have their engineers been brought into line by the Germans and Swedes who control most of their industry now?

[newmercman]

[zb]
anorak:

newmercman:

robert1952:
I’ve lots of good stuff yet to post, but TruckNet appears to be refusing permission for all but my one-liners at the moment. I thought it was the servers at the Egyptian end at first, or more sinister state intervention (social network activism) but it seems that the problem just might be at TruckNet’s end. Can anyone advise. Robert

Yes, get a German computer!!!

I’ll get my coat…

Hahaha! Superb. You might have missed, amidst the deluge of Leatherhead Lunacy, a reference I made to one of your previous posts, regarding the American norm of driving at undiminished speed on rough roads. Do their engines suffer from ancillaries breaking off, or have their engineers been brought into line by the Germans and Swedes who control most of their industry now?

I thought I’d highlight the relevant part so that it makes it past Reigate Hill

[3300john]

Hiya…

[erf-continental]

@ZZARBEAN/Ted:

Nice to hear your possible positive experience in Germany. ERF has appointed Service Agents in Germany,
respectively in Hamburg, Fulda, Stuttgart and Nurnberg. I speak of 1977 and will highlight other remarks
on the continental service-network later. Strange enough there was no importer/dealer appointed in the
German-area, but as sais, good 'they’made you and your truck operational that soon!

For the worse/bad experiences of HArry, I doubt if there was no mutual interest for both ERF- and White-
dealers, as there was hardly direct competition, Swiss-transporter being often straight on choice of their
vehicles…Friderici and so on…but also that for later. ■■■■■■■ was represented in Switzerland, ERF was
and I struggle with chicken-egg-idea…no service because no volume/turnover and reverse, no service,
hence no truck-purchases anymore…we are all human and remain so…strange? no, realistic!

A-J

[carryfast]

newmercman:

[zb]
anorak:

newmercman:

robert1952:
I’ve lots of good stuff yet to post, but TruckNet appears to be refusing permission for all but my one-liners at the moment. I thought it was the servers at the Egyptian end at first, or more sinister state intervention (social network activism) but it seems that the problem just might be at TruckNet’s end. Can anyone advise. Robert

Yes, get a German computer!!!

I’ll get my coat…

Hahaha! Superb. You might have missed, amidst the deluge of Leatherhead Lunacy, a reference I made to one of your previous posts, regarding the American norm of driving at undiminished speed on rough roads. Do their engines suffer from ancillaries breaking off, or have their engineers been brought into line by the Germans and Swedes who control most of their industry now?

I thought I’d highlight the relevant part so that it makes it past Reigate Hill

This is ‘supposed’ to be all about the situation as it stood in 1975 and for that you’ll need to get your head around a time when the Swedes and the Germans were known for getting relatively small amounts of horsepower from relatively large capacity V configuration engines. As I’ve said anything they managed after that was all about it being given to them on a plate not the so called merits of their wagons compared to what was available across the Atlantic.As for the Americans they just saw what Heath had done and thought we can do that much better by totally giving the country’s interests away to the highest bidder and wherever the cheapest labour happens to be.Which is why China is now richer than the EU let alone Germany.

[zb_anorak]

newmercman:

[zb]
anorak:
Hahaha! Superb. You might have missed, amidst the deluge of Leatherhead Lunacy, a reference I made to one of your previous posts, regarding the American norm of driving at undiminished speed on rough roads. Do their engines suffer from ancillaries breaking off, or have their engineers been brought into line by the Germans and Swedes who control most of their industry now?

I thought I’d highlight the relevant part so that it makes it past Reigate Hill

It might make it past Reigate Hill, but would need more than a nice red paint job and a 13-speed Fuller to get through the ears of the nutcase beyond.

[erf-continental]

@Anorak: regard Scania as German meanwhile (Volkswagen is far ahead, think of their TRUCK with ■■■■■■■
In Brazil/South America to attack PACCAR-DAF before) and Volvo needs a partner very soon or their range
will end in a museum/gallery/thread soon! Not to be negative, only realistic…in front of a Belgian-trappist

I expect (as with cars) Volkswagen will create (perhaps with a buy out of MAN as well) a global company with a
lot of brands…VW, MAN, Scania…perhaps Büssing will be taken of the shelf just like MB did with Maybach
and time will tell! Bear in mind, the cake is not growing so big, but the chasers are keen to eat from it!! Hunger!

Proost!

[saviem]

Evening all, well yet another potentially good thread destroyed by a constant barrage of drivel, and pseudo technical clap trap, delivered from the megaphone of the “bash street kid”, who dreams that he had, but never did, and is unhappy with the words and experiences of those who actually “did”…

I am old enough to vividly remember the words of the Socialist Minister of Transport, William Rogers, back in 78 , speaking in Brussels, regarding the reported recommendations of the Road Research Labority, that it was essential that the UK move to a 2 plus 3 combination at 38 tonnes gtw to provide potential tonne/mile savings of 18% over the current 32 tons gtw. That he would never support it, and "quality of life " in Britain would be threatened if he did not oppose the recomendations of this “quasi” governmental organisation…did his seat in Parliament depend on the Rail Unions, I wonder?

Succesive Governmental Ministers of Transport , by not recognising that in any single market, (a destination that all and one irrespective of colour, blue, or red), were racing toward. Harmonisation was vital, and by not recognising that fact, they were putting a noose around the collective neck of the UK lorry builders…and so many others. But in all fairness, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders were just as blinkered…as were the ,…no the only Road Haulage lobby, that “fat cat”, neutered Gin swilling bunch of plutocratic “no hopers”,…(and the tradition continues to this day)…the Road Haulage Association. Rushing headlong for the buffers in the siding into which the freight train of British Industry was racing, shouting for more coal on the fire, and more steam!!!

And let I, and others deride our friend Carryfast in error, one point that he makes is correct…the German Industry was developed with unrestricted finance, by our American cousins…lest the spectre of Communism creep in…in our restricted lorry terms…how about the, (largest at that date), orders for US forces, “given” to Mercedes and MAN, 70/78? (I can quantify volumes if anyone wishes)! The largest single freight vehicle order ever placed in Europe, post WW2.

No, I will not accept that British engineering in vehicle terms was substandard, I can only go from my own experience and records. A lorry is a revenue producing item, and in my own case I can call on statistics collated over 40 years,both in the UK, Europe, and the US, either on behalf of a vehicle manufacturer, or when my own money, (and credit) were employed . Cost per km is surprisingly similar , across similar weight range products, irrespective of their country of origin. Not surprising, given that engineers were seeking to achieve the same aim!

Failure of “bought in” components plagued all manufacturers. Harry`s comments about White “Roadcommodes”, (as one Texan described them to me) ring true. Most European examples ended up with F89 rear axles, and despite their image…no CAT was ever in the same league as a ■■■■■■■■ Yet Ryland did well with the importation…but to my knowledge neither Fleet Hire, or Dobsons of Edinburgh, both Ryland operations, ever ran a White. I can only recall the ones that I imported as “Orrible”, and I was glad to get rid!

Bearing in mind that “home” manufacturers were supplying, (at incredibly difficult times, given the rampant economic inflation), and strike disrupted component supply , any manufacturer who looked at Europe as a potential market should be applauded.

That ERF was a good vehicle builder could not be denied, that their business strategy was not focused, again was clear…for who would introduce a new product, (C serie), then offer to update customers own old products to 6x2s at the factory! The same time that the European was introduced, why were ERF putting their TrailBlazer promotion behind the 265 Rolls engine product…the most economic lorry on the market! And Leyland promoting Rolls engines in Europe…but the Continental, (good though it probably was), had ■■■■■■■ power.

Anyone found out where my Dutch ERFs went…

Ive had a day on EEC documents…can you tell?

Cheerio for now.

[cav551]

Returning to the issue of ancillaries. At about the time when the Merc SK started to become really popular, which I would guess to be about 1983-5, I recollect some of the banter going about the comparison to the ERF. This went along the lines that Mercs were good lorries, but you just couldn’t stop them and it would kill your wallet buying new brake drums all the time. On the other hand the ERF wasn’t a bad truck and it stopped well, but what you couldn’t stop about it was all the bits that kept falling off.

[carryfast]

Saviem:
Evening all, well yet another potentially good thread destroyed by a constant barrage of drivel, and pseudo technical clap trap, delivered from the megaphone of the “bash street kid”, who dreams that he had, but never did, and is unhappy with the words and experiences of those who actually “did”…

I am old enough to vividly remember the words of the Socialist Minister of Transport, William Rogers, back in 78 , speaking in Brussels, regarding the reported recommendations of the Road Research Labority, that it was essential that the UK move to a 2 plus 3 combination at 38 tonnes gtw to provide potential tonne/mile savings of 18% over the current 32 tons gtw. That he would never support it, and "quality of life " in Britain would be threatened if he did not oppose the recomendations of this “quasi” governmental organisation…did his seat in Parliament depend on the Rail Unions, I wonder?

Succesive Governmental Ministers of Transport , by not recognising that in any single market, (a destination that all and one irrespective of colour, blue, or red), were racing toward. Harmonisation was vital, and by not recognising that fact, they were putting a noose around the collective neck of the UK lorry builders…and so many others. But in all fairness, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders were just as blinkered…as were the ,…no the only Road Haulage lobby, that “fat cat”, neutered Gin swilling bunch of plutocratic “no hopers”,…(and the tradition continues to this day)…the Road Haulage Association. Rushing headlong for the buffers in the siding into which the freight train of British Industry was racing, shouting for more coal on the fire, and more steam!!!

And let I, and others deride our friend Carryfast in error, one point that he makes is correct…the German Industry was developed with unrestricted finance, by our American cousins…lest the spectre of Communism creep in…in our restricted lorry terms…how about the, (largest at that date), orders for US forces, “given” to Mercedes and MAN, 70/78? (I can quantify volumes if anyone wishes)! The largest single freight vehicle order ever placed in Europe, post WW2.

No, I will not accept that British engineering in vehicle terms was substandard, I can only go from my own experience and records. A lorry is a revenue producing item, and in my own case I can call on statistics collated over 40 years,both in the UK, Europe, and the US, either on behalf of a vehicle manufacturer, or when my own money, (and credit) were employed . Cost per km is surprisingly similar , across similar weight range products, irrespective of their country of origin. Not surprising, given that engineers were seeking to achieve the same aim!

Failure of “bought in” components plagued all manufacturers. Harry`s comments about White “Roadcommodes”, (as one Texan described them to me) ring true. Most European examples ended up with F89 rear axles, and despite their image…no CAT was ever in the same league as a ■■■■■■■■ Yet Ryland did well with the importation…but to my knowledge neither Fleet Hire, or Dobsons of Edinburgh, both Ryland operations, ever ran a White. I can only recall the ones that I imported as “Orrible”, and I was glad to get rid!

Bearing in mind that “home” manufacturers were supplying, (at incredibly difficult times, given the rampant economic inflation), and strike disrupted component supply , any manufacturer who looked at Europe as a potential market should be applauded.

That ERF was a good vehicle builder could not be denied, that their business strategy was not focused, again was clear…for who would introduce a new product, (C serie), then offer to update customers own old products to 6x2s at the factory! The same time that the European was introduced, why were ERF putting their TrailBlazer promotion behind the 265 Rolls engine product…the most economic lorry on the market! And Leyland promoting Rolls engines in Europe…but the Continental, (good though it probably was), had ■■■■■■■ power.

Anyone found out where my Dutch ERFs went…

Ive had a day on EEC documents…can you tell?

Cheerio for now.

How is it supposedly in your view damaging the topic to point out a number of facts which are obviously relevant to the discussion and the issues raised by others within it.It doesn’t say much for your ideas in that instead of providing evidence to show exactly where what I’ve said is factually incorrect you’ve just resorted to whingeing about damaging the topic in some way.

Yes we had a bunch of so called socialists running the government in 1978 and if you’ve read many of my other posts I actually agree with you that the rail interests have played a large part in sabotaging the uk road transport industry over the years.However that’s nothing new and it applies as much in the case of so called ‘Conservative’ governments as ‘Socialist’ ones.

I notice that you’ve obviously selectively left out the fact that the weight limit in question wasn’t raised when that so called ‘socialist’ government was removed in 1979 nor for a number of years after that.The important thing is the cross Party opposition and support regarding the bs Euro project which as I’ve said had more to do with the problems of our manufacturing industry in general than just the gross weight limit in isolation and it’s effects on the truck manufacturing sector.

Not surprisingly you’re obviously on the side of the pro EEC membership lot and therefore part of the problem not the anti one.In which case as I’ve said ‘if’ the anti cross party co alition had won that argument and got into power,in the form of Shore and Powell,instead of the pro side in the form of Heath,Wilson,Callaghan and Thatcher,I’m sure that such a government would have done whatever it took to put our own country’s economic interests above those of Euroland which,as you’ve agreed,was in large part all about looking after the Germans.Not because anyone thought that the West Germans were going to go rushing to join the Russians as part of the DDR but because people like Heath were simply scared of them kicking off again.

Which part of,Europe was never going to buy British manufactured vehicles,nor going to enter any trade deal with the UK,which wasn’t in Europe’s favour,using whatever form of trade barriers they could dream up,don’t you understand.Which obviously included such dream’t up ideas that European service staff couldn’t work with anything other than metric engineered components or Bosch fuel systems with the added myth that UK built wagons would fall to bits as soon as they left the factory gate etc etc etc etc. The result obviously contributing to the documented trade deficit which we had with the place from the time we joined it with the only thing that they wanted from us being our Gas and Oil reserves.

You can then add to that the fact the ERF European for ‘some’ reason was fitted with an obsolete inferior fuel inefficient driveline in the form of a 9 speed fuller from it’s introduction and an obsolete fuel inefficient engine in the form of the small cam ■■■■■■■ from 1976.While it’s manufacturer was also obviously counting itself out of the,admittedly small,beginnings of the UK running fleet premium truck market sector.If you think that those facts are supposedly ‘pseudo technical clap trap’,then why don’t you provide some ‘facts’ of your own to prove them wrong instead of whingeing about supposedly ‘damaging’ the topic because the facts which I’ve provided don’t suit your pro Europe script.

[harry]

I have to say that I have no axe to grind or Brit bash agenda. I noticed a pic I had taken on here of my old mate Manfred and replied to the query . The trucks we are talking about were shoddy sheds. I couldn’t fault the lump. The ■■■■■■■ never missed a beat. But ,alternators ,water pumps ,compressors,airbags,and stuff made it difficult to go from A to B without drama. I had no idea this thread was about love affairs with British machinery . Any international driver would tell you the best truck is the one that don’t breakdown. As a plodder you couldn’t beat a DAF. Next for reliability came the Volvo , then Scanias . These days Mercedes is up there with the best of 'em. But where are the Whites and the ERFS? You just don’t see them- I wonder why? To hell with the politics I’d drive a North Korean truck if it did what it said on the tin. Would a plumber stick to British tools if they kept on breaking? Don’t think so?
When you’ve got a job to do the tools should assist you not impede you. Standing by the roadside with a boxfull of spanners don’t get the bills paid , in my experience anyway.