3300John:
Hiya Robert…thanks for explaining why the ERF has that backend…i’ve seen the lorry many times at shows.
I wouldn’t ask why the double drive wasn’t genuine…reason been theirs always some bright spark picking fault
with your prize posseion…i have a AEC 6 wheeler painted in Adams butter colour,s (as a kid i saw the twin headlight
specials, I did at one time drive some of them ) when i took my lorry to a Adams Butter reunion all i got from
one driver was, we never had 6 wheeler,s (mine is double drive so can’t really cut her down) but i managed to
represent the company which had long gone, I still go knocked back by a armchair restorer.
John
I know what you mean, its like treading on glass at times isn’t it! Now about Pountain’s truck. I posted this comment somewhere back down the thread: Pountains of Sudbury ran a hybrid beast: a right-hand-drive 6x4 pre A-series model (UGE 852R) with the set-back 4MW cab, which later acquired a 7MW cab and a 350 ■■■■■■■ engine — this may well have been an NTC 350, which was basically a 335 with an after-cooler. It originally had a ■■■■■■■ 335 and a Fuller RTO915 gearbox. Eventually this vehicle passed to J & Y Weir of Fernigait in Scotland, where it hauled heavy loads internally on the Ravenscraig site at Motherwell. It wasn’t an NGC 420, but it was certainly an imposing sight. Below, I’ll show it first with its 4MW cab, then with its 7MW cab. Robert
anyone know which NGC 420 this is? Is he the driver?
I took this snap of my old mate Manfred. German driver with a Swiss truck. The reason he looked so rough is that he had just been let out of that Victorian Dover police nick.He drove up to UK customs with his dog sat on the passenger seat before EEC rules.Dog was quarantined,driver in chokey. I went to see him in jail & he came to my place to clean up etc. Manfred was also an M/E driver. Spent six months blocked in Tehran on his last trip.
PS; I had one of those old heaps as well. Nearly froze to death in Alsace on one of the many breakdowns.
@Harry: was it ZH120919? By absence of Robert1952 now, I would like to ask if
H. Burkhard of Zurich had two ERF-NGC’s? Picture has been inputed by Robert1952
earlier in this thread.
No,Hans was a Swiss O/D from Zurich. That ERF with all its breakdowns broke him financially.The garage he was in hock to snatched it back & hired it out to an (associate)of mine to try to get some money back but it was on its last legs. I got to UK with it & tipped up the cab & saw that they had stuffed wherever they could lumps of foam soaked in diesel ,hoping for a fire ,I suppose.
Carryfast:
The obvious question which that raises is that,was the erroneous idea,of trying to seperate a domestic use spec type wagon from the improved so called international ‘long haul’ spec type one,based on customer perceptions or manufacturer ones ?.My case is that the manufacturers knew that such double standards thinking would bite them in the long term but they couldn’t do anything about it because the idea of a ‘guvnor’s wagon’ was still,at that time,entrenched within the UK customer base in terms of domestic use spec products.It was the eventual backlash against that flawed thinking which eventually proved to be one of the major factors in bringing down the Brits.IE uk only running trampers for example wanted all the same benefits in terms of comfort and power to get the job done as enjoyed by their continental running counterparts.It was just a matter of time until the guvnors realised that too and then ditched the double standards thinking.Unfortunately it was the Scandinavian and Euro imports that benefitted from that obvious foreseeable change in thinking.
As for the 9 speed fuller I totally agree that the lighter faster constant mesh fuller was far superior to the average Euro or Scandinavian synchro type but ironically there was a massive split amongst uk drivers and operators in that regard in that many erroneously viewed the synchro type as being superior. In addition to which as I’ve said the last thing that was needed for the fuel consumption characteristics of turbo charged engines was the relatively fewer and resulting wide ratio 9 speed as opposed to at least 13.IE the 9 speed fuller was effectively obsolete and a fuel consumption liability for use with turbocharged engines.Which is why the 13 speed was developed and introduced.
The History of the World by Geoffrey Carryfast
Everyone is wrong.
The end.
Bigger engines, bigger cabs, more gears, they all cost more and they all weigh more eating into valuable payload in 32ton Britain, the unions were against sleeper cabs and not every company did night’s out, most still had a trunking network in place.
And you think they should have all bought lorries that were over a ton heavier, that used more fuel and carried less weight
Carryfast:
The obvious question which that raises is that,was the erroneous idea,of trying to seperate a domestic use spec type wagon from the improved so called international ‘long haul’ spec type one,based on customer perceptions or manufacturer ones ?.My case is that the manufacturers knew that such double standards thinking would bite them in the long term but they couldn’t do anything about it because the idea of a ‘guvnor’s wagon’ was still,at that time,entrenched within the UK customer base in terms of domestic use spec products.It was the eventual backlash against that flawed thinking which eventually proved to be one of the major factors in bringing down the Brits.IE uk only running trampers for example wanted all the same benefits in terms of comfort and power to get the job done as enjoyed by their continental running counterparts.It was just a matter of time until the guvnors realised that too and then ditched the double standards thinking.Unfortunately it was the Scandinavian and Euro imports that benefitted from that obvious foreseeable change in thinking.
As for the 9 speed fuller I totally agree that the lighter faster constant mesh fuller was far superior to the average Euro or Scandinavian synchro type but ironically there was a massive split amongst uk drivers and operators in that regard in that many erroneously viewed the synchro type as being superior. In addition to which as I’ve said the last thing that was needed for the fuel consumption characteristics of turbo charged engines was the relatively fewer and resulting wide ratio 9 speed as opposed to at least 13.IE the 9 speed fuller was effectively obsolete and a fuel consumption liability for use with turbocharged engines.Which is why the 13 speed was developed and introduced.
The History of the World by Geoffrey Carryfast
Everyone is wrong.
The end.
Bigger engines, bigger cabs, more gears, they all cost more and they all weigh more eating into valuable payload in 32ton Britain, the unions were against sleeper cabs and not every company did night’s out, most still had a trunking network in place.
And you think they should have all bought lorries that were over a ton heavier, that used more fuel and carried less weight
That’s a simplistic selective view.Firstly the 32 t gross limit continued into the 1980’s.However I’ve shown at least one example from experience which shows that the ( foreseeable ) change in outlook which I’m referring to started before that time in the mid 1970’s and then grew at an increasing level admittedly helped by the ( foreseeable ) move to 38 t gross.
However everything is relative.As I’ve said the move to turbocharged more powerful,fuel efficient,engines was taking place during the time of the 32 t limit and as I’ve also said that move required transmissions with more/closer ratios owing to the fuel consumption characteristics of such engines.
Therefore,in a world where thinking was inevitably,albeit slowly, moving away from the logic which you’ve described and the Big Cam ■■■■■■■ was about to enter service and where the 13 speed fuller had been introduced since at least 1971 and in which around 10 hp per tonne would become the efficient norm,the flaws,in investing in a product policy,in which the domestic use market was seen as being totally different to that of the international use market in terms of ‘guvnors’ wagons and ‘drivers’ wagons,and in which relying on the first generation turbocharged small cam ■■■■■■■ and the 9 speed fuller combination ( let alone Gardner and DB combination ),even for the ‘drivers wagons’,seem clear enough to me.
Hi Harry. What was your overall opinion of the lorry? Did ERF stand a chance in Europe, or was the assemble-it-from-bits method just not good enough?
Which part of ‘Europe’ was never going to buy British wagons using American engine and driveline etc components even in the short,let alone long,term don’t you understand.
Hi Harry. What was your overall opinion of the lorry? Did ERF stand a chance in Europe, or was the assemble-it-from-bits method just not good enough?
Which part of ‘Europe’ was never going to buy British wagons using American engine and driveline etc components even in the short,let alone long,term don’t you understand.
Hi Harry. What was your overall opinion of the lorry? Did ERF stand a chance in Europe, or was the assemble-it-from-bits method just not good enough?
Which part of ‘Europe’ was never going to buy British wagons using American engine and driveline etc components even in the short,let alone long,term don’t you understand.
It’s late. You’re drunk, aren’t you?
I’m still waiting for an answer as to how you’re going to make a ■■■■■■■ motor run with a Bosch injection set up requested by Tiptop and when you’ve done that it’ll be something else etc etc etc.
CF, the people at ERF were more than capable of producing the lorry you describe, but as a stand alone product it would bring about issues on the assembly line, so rationalising the forthcoming B Series range made a lot of sense, they could serve both the European big engine, big cab market and keep the locals happy with low powered day cabs.
They were very late in the game as export to Europe wasn’t easy as the CKD approach they had to take proves, the rival manufacturers in Europe and Scandinavia never had the same restrictions and because of this had already established a formidable presence in the European Heavy Truck market.
Blame DeGaulle and his veto of Britain joining the EEC
newmercman:
CF, the people at ERF were more than capable of producing the lorry you describe, but as a stand alone product it would bring about issues on the assembly line, so rationalising the forthcoming B Series range made a lot of sense, they could serve both the European big engine, big cab market and keep the locals happy with low powered day cabs.
They were very late in the game as export to Europe wasn’t easy as the CKD approach they had to take proves, the rival manufacturers in Europe and Scandinavia never had the same restrictions and because of this had already established a formidable presence in the European Heavy Truck market.
Blame DeGaulle and his veto of Britain joining the EEC
As I’ve said the problem with the first paragraph was that with foresight and hindsight it was a risky strategy at best and a suicidal one at worse.Especially when you factor in the type of examples which I’ve given of big UK running fleets looking to upgrade to the ‘drivers’ wagons’ from those previous low power day cab ‘guvnors’ wagons’ as of at least mid-late 1970’s.Which as history shows was a change in thinking that then grew at an ever increasing level to the benefit of the Scandinavians and Euros.While as you’ve said our own manufacturers had bet the farm on things remaining as they were in the late 1960’s-early 1970’s both in terms of the domestic market aimed products and ones like that of the flawed spec ( for the mid-late 1970’s ) of the European.
As for the second paragraph Tiptop’s comments,regarding the impossible task of making Brit made trucks with their American based engines and driveline components,fit into a world in which Euro service staff couldn’t ( maybe more like wouldn’t ) ,work with Brit/American engineering,show that DeGaulle was absolutely right and Heath was wrong.
harry:
No,Hans was a Swiss O/D from Zurich. That ERF with all its breakdowns broke him financially.The garage he was in hock to snatched it back & hired it out to an (associate)of mine to try to get some money back but it was on its last legs. I got to UK with it & tipped up the cab & saw that they had stuffed wherever they could lumps of foam soaked in diesel ,hoping for a fire ,I suppose.
Thanks Harry and ERF-Continental for solving the mystery of the 2nd Swiss 7MW and the Manfred picture all at the same time! That’s another one for the register. ERF-Continental has now created an ‘excel’ register and is building on my original list by meticulously recording all new findings - it’s shaping up nicely.
Hi Harry. What was your overall opinion of the lorry? Did ERF stand a chance in Europe, or was the assemble-it-from-bits method just not good enough?
When they were introduced to Switzerland the Swiss O/D’s thought they were a bargain due to the price. At the time they were doing mainly M/E work were constantly breaking down & cost them dear. The main lump -■■■■■■■■■■■ good but it rattled to pieces all the accessories ,compressors,water pumps,alternators,even clutches wore out quickly.They couldn’t stand up to hard wear. The stupid thing had great big contact breakers instead of fuses… spent days in mid-Winter without the engine or night heater working. Grim.
Hi Harry. What was your overall opinion of the lorry? Did ERF stand a chance in Europe, or was the assemble-it-from-bits method just not good enough?
When they were introduced to Switzerland the Swiss O/D’s thought they were a bargain due to the price. At the time they were doing mainly M/E work were constantly breaking down & cost them dear. The main lump -■■■■■■■■■■■ good but it rattled to pieces all the accessories ,compressors,water pumps,alternators,even clutches wore out quickly.They couldn’t stand up to hard wear.
Assuming that the components in question there are all basically similar to what would be fitted to something like a Kenworth for example then how did that combination work ok in the Australian outback and the North American mountains but not Europe and the Middle East.
Hi Harry. What was your overall opinion of the lorry? Did ERF stand a chance in Europe, or was the assemble-it-from-bits method just not good enough?
When they were introduced to Switzerland the Swiss O/D’s thought they were a bargain due to the price. At the time they were doing mainly M/E work were constantly breaking down & cost them dear. The main lump -■■■■■■■■■■■ good but it rattled to pieces all the accessories ,compressors,water pumps,alternators,even clutches wore out quickly.They couldn’t stand up to hard wear.
Assuming that the components in question there are all basically similar to what would be fitted to something like a Kenworth for example then how did that combination work ok in the Australian outback and the North American mountains but not Europe and the Middle East.
You’ve been watching Smokey and the Bandit again haven’t you
Apart from the power rating and a bigger cab shell the US trucks are the same as the UK market gaffer’s wagons, i.e. Crude and simple, drive a Volvo and then get into a KW and you go back twenty years in comfort
In addition to which as I’ve said the last thing that was needed for the fuel consumption characteristics of turbo charged engines was the relatively fewer and resulting wide ratio 9 speed as opposed to at least 13.IE the 9 speed fuller was effectively obsolete and a fuel consumption liability for use with turbocharged engines.Which is why the 13 speed was developed and introduced.
and when you’ve done that it’ll be something else etc etc etc.
