[zb]
anorak:
Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
Regarding Fuller RTO9513 gearboxes, I thought that the “9” at the beginning signified 900lbft, which should have made the 'box adequate for a 140 or a ■■■■■■■ 350.
From memory I think that translates as Roadranger Transmission Overdrive 950 lbs/ft 13 speed ?.Regardless of the codes I don’t think that the 9 speed could handle anything that the 13 speed couldn’t assuming the correct input spec was taken account of in either case.So it just seems like a case of yet again the Brits shooting themselves in the foot when a better option was available which arguably would have made the fuel figures for the ERF v it’s competition on test look even better.
From the test report and the posts on this thread, it seems that the splitter section of the 'box did not come up to the standard of the rest of it. IIRC, you spent some time on a DAF similar to the one in the report. Did you have to use the clutch to make split changes? Did the splitter change gear reliably?
I had no experience of the Fuller 13 speed installation in the DAF as the ones I drove had the ZF constant mesh 12 speed splitter and then only the Fuller 9 speed in the later 2800 ATI’s.My experience of the 13 speed Fuller was in some of the specialist built drawbar spec TM fire trucks with the V8 Detroit and in some rental MAN’s.In all those cases those installations worked brilliantly,with possibly the ZF constant mesh splitter maybe suiting the old 680 Leyland based DAF motor better than the Fuller might have done.
In all cases the ability to provide anything that was available on the US market in terms of power units together with the 13 speed fuller was there from at least around 1971 for any of the Brit manufacturers who chose to use it.Which in this case would obviously have been the all of the small cam ■■■■■■■ range,up to around 350-400 bhp,and then the big cam range from 1976.Basically we had an open goal in the case of the best that the Scandinavians could do at the time and sadly,as I’ve said,it was the domestic customer base,combined with lack of investment,that let the domestic truck industry down. 
@Robert: I would say that’s more likely a Thibaut ERF, as this picture was taken in front of the offices
on the parking space of CDB in Brussels Thibaut had a vivid trade in all kinds of agricultural products and
might need a savoyard/hamburger verdeck to move on those products.
Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
Regarding Fuller RTO9513 gearboxes, I thought that the “9” at the beginning signified 900lbft, which should have made the 'box adequate for a 140 or a ■■■■■■■ 350.
From memory I think that translates as Roadranger Transmission Overdrive 950 lbs/ft 13 speed ?.Regardless of the codes I don’t think that the 9 speed could handle anything that the 13 speed couldn’t assuming the correct input spec was taken account of in either case.So it just seems like a case of yet again the Brits shooting themselves in the foot when a better option was available which arguably would have made the fuel figures for the ERF v it’s competition on test look even better.
From the test report and the posts on this thread, it seems that the splitter section of the 'box did not come up to the standard of the rest of it. IIRC, you spent some time on a DAF similar to the one in the report. Did you have to use the clutch to make split changes? Did the splitter change gear reliably?
I had no experience of the Fuller 13 speed installation in the DAF as the ones I drove had the ZF constant mesh 12 speed splitter and then only the Fuller 9 speed in the later 2800 ATI’s.My experience of the 13 speed Fuller was in some of the specialist built drawbar spec TM fire trucks with the V8 Detroit and in some rental MAN’s.In all those cases those installations worked brilliantly,with possibly the ZF constant mesh splitter maybe suiting the old 680 Leyland based DAF motor better than the Fuller might have done.
In all cases the ability to provide anything that was available on the US market in terms of power units together with the 13 speed fuller was there from at least around 1971 for any of the Brit manufacturers who chose to use it.Which in this case would obviously have been the all of the small cam ■■■■■■■ range,up to around 350-400 bhp,and then the big cam range from 1976.Basically we had an open goal in the case of the best that the Scandinavians could do at the time and sadly,as I’ve said,it was the domestic customer base,combined with lack of investment,that let the domestic truck industry down.
I drove a DAF similar to the one in the report and also MANs with 13-speed Fullers. You needed the clutch to activate the splitter. Robert
Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
Regarding Fuller RTO9513 gearboxes, I thought that the “9” at the beginning signified 900lbft, which should have made the 'box adequate for a 140 or a ■■■■■■■ 350.
From memory I think that translates as Roadranger Transmission Overdrive 950 lbs/ft 13 speed ?.Regardless of the codes I don’t think that the 9 speed could handle anything that the 13 speed couldn’t assuming the correct input spec was taken account of in either case.So it just seems like a case of yet again the Brits shooting themselves in the foot when a better option was available which arguably would have made the fuel figures for the ERF v it’s competition on test look even better.
From the test report and the posts on this thread, it seems that the splitter section of the 'box did not come up to the standard of the rest of it. IIRC, you spent some time on a DAF similar to the one in the report. Did you have to use the clutch to make split changes? Did the splitter change gear reliably?
I had no experience of the Fuller 13 speed installation in the DAF as the ones I drove had the ZF constant mesh 12 speed splitter and then only the Fuller 9 speed in the later 2800 ATI’s.My experience of the 13 speed Fuller was in some of the specialist built drawbar spec TM fire trucks with the V8 Detroit and in some rental MAN’s.In all those cases those installations worked brilliantly,with possibly the ZF constant mesh splitter maybe suiting the old 680 Leyland based DAF motor better than the Fuller might have done.
In all cases the ability to provide anything that was available on the US market in terms of power units together with the 13 speed fuller was there from at least around 1971 for any of the Brit manufacturers who chose to use it.Which in this case would obviously have been the all of the small cam ■■■■■■■ range,up to around 350-400 bhp,and then the big cam range from 1976.Basically we had an open goal in the case of the best that the Scandinavians could do at the time and sadly,as I’ve said,it was the domestic customer base,combined with lack of investment,that let the domestic truck industry down.
I drove a DAF similar to the one in the report and also MANs with 13-speed Fullers. You needed the clutch to activate the splitter. It wasn’t torque-sensitive like the 12-speed Twin-splitter or the 18-speed. Robert
robert1952:
I drove a DAF similar to the one in the report and also MANs with 13-speed Fullers. You needed the clutch to activate the splitter. It wasn’t torque-sensitive like the 12-speed Twin-splitter or the 18-speed. Robert
Interesting. Was there some sort of interlock mechanism, to prevent it working with the clutch pedal “up”?
[zb]
anorak:
tiptop495:
Hey, oh sorry yes if they had other tyres, I never looked very well the test brochure; I assumed off the French and belgian legislation for 38 gross tons with 13 ton drive axle which need the 120020’s.
But you must attend at Scania rev counters from time to time some red bands began earlier or later why■■?
And the 2300 revs I used is when it had its max power of 350hp. If you drove them they went with ease over 2500revs.
So you can calculate which speed my 141 has with a 3.44 ratio and 120020 at 2500 revs 
.
Bye Eric.
150km/h (93mph). Oddly enough, the 141 spec sheet says that, if you order the 3.44 axle, you must have 315/70 tyres, as if they do not want you to go fast! The maximum speed they quote is 67mph, which is what the calculation gives.
Hey Anorak, You have right it was a diff for low deck artics standard was as you wanted 3.88,4.13. But not we alone put after a while the 1200 or 13.22.5 on it.
You had to downshift more but it was very usefull as you could downshift at 95kph like other did with the 12,13 or 16 speeders. That only counts for short and not high climbs and could hold speed.
But have never run at 2500revs with such a fast diff about 2000 was enough and could hold on with the Volvo’s and some other.
Otherwise lots put them in neutral and let roll them,especially the airfreight drivers. Once one was flashed at over 140kph with his Daf,if it was today he could forget his license.
And thinking it was done with K tyres which were only allowed for 105kph in those days. But as the limiter came you needed on an oldie (pre '1988) a limiter too if you hadn’t L or M tyres on it.
I should think that tyres were better as now, with K tyres for hours,loaded in warm weather and never had a blowout.
Of course we didn’t run rubbish.
Cheers Eric,
robert1952:
Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
Regarding Fuller RTO9513 gearboxes, I thought that the “9” at the beginning signified 900lbft, which should have made the 'box adequate for a 140 or a ■■■■■■■ 350.
From memory I think that translates as Roadranger Transmission Overdrive 950 lbs/ft 13 speed ?.Regardless of the codes I don’t think that the 9 speed could handle anything that the 13 speed couldn’t assuming the correct input spec was taken account of in either case.So it just seems like a case of yet again the Brits shooting themselves in the foot when a better option was available which arguably would have made the fuel figures for the ERF v it’s competition on test look even better.
From the test report and the posts on this thread, it seems that the splitter section of the 'box did not come up to the standard of the rest of it. IIRC, you spent some time on a DAF similar to the one in the report. Did you have to use the clutch to make split changes? Did the splitter change gear reliably?
I had no experience of the Fuller 13 speed installation in the DAF as the ones I drove had the ZF constant mesh 12 speed splitter and then only the Fuller 9 speed in the later 2800 ATI’s.My experience of the 13 speed Fuller was in some of the specialist built drawbar spec TM fire trucks with the V8 Detroit and in some rental MAN’s.In all those cases those installations worked brilliantly,with possibly the ZF constant mesh splitter maybe suiting the old 680 Leyland based DAF motor better than the Fuller might have done.
In all cases the ability to provide anything that was available on the US market in terms of power units together with the 13 speed fuller was there from at least around 1971 for any of the Brit manufacturers who chose to use it.Which in this case would obviously have been the all of the small cam ■■■■■■■ range,up to around 350-400 bhp,and then the big cam range from 1976.Basically we had an open goal in the case of the best that the Scandinavians could do at the time and sadly,as I’ve said,it was the domestic customer base,combined with lack of investment,that let the domestic truck industry down.
I drove a DAF similar to the one in the report and also MANs with 13-speed Fullers. You needed the clutch to activate the splitter. Robert
That’s at least how I always remember using all the splitter types that I knew of in the case of Spicer,ZF and Fuller.The strange thing in the case of the test was why did DAF seem to allow an obviously faulty splitter system get into a test. 
ERF-Continental:
@Robert: I would say that’s more likely a Thibaut ERF, as this picture was taken in front of the offices
on the parking space of CDB in Brussels Thibaut had a vivid trade in all kinds of agricultural products and
might need a savoyard/hamburger verdeck to move on those products. For sure it would ‘confirm’ Mrs. T.
saying there was an ERF NGC420 tractor too.
To have something to do during the weekend attached pictures.
By the way, register will follow soon.
A-J
Thank you ERF-Continental:
Firstly, a nice piece of detective work there: if that red NGC 420 is outside CDB’s office it is more likely to be Thibaut’s Belgian vehicle than MABO’s French demo unit I would have thought - we’ll put that one on the back boiler.
Secondly, your picture of an MGC 380 (which meant 420 in Beligium) shows one of 8 similar units supplied to Delcon with ■■■■■■■ 335s for trans-European work.
Thirdly, your picture of the French Collin unit is unlikely to be an NGC 380. I have many pictures of this unit from all angles and it quite clearly has the heavy-duty, waisted chassis of the NGC 420. I showed these pics to Jerry Cooke and he agrees.
Fourthly, you earlier mentioned not being able to ex-ray NLG 35N to ascertain whether it’s a 360, 380 or 420. Forget all that, as it is the chassis that determines the status, not the drive-line, and like I say they all seem to have the same chassis.
Fifthly, before you start a register please bear in mind that I have already started one with 70 units on it and it will appear in my book, but I don’t mind sharing (as you have seen) information that helps us all to enjoy our ERF heritage. Hope this helps. Robert
[zb]
anorak:
robert1952:
I drove a DAF similar to the one in the report and also MANs with 13-speed Fullers. You needed the clutch to activate the splitter. It wasn’t torque-sensitive like the 12-speed Twin-splitter or the 18-speed. Robert
Interesting. Was there some sort of interlock mechanism, to prevent it working with the clutch pedal “up”?
On all the systems I’ve used you pre select a split using the switch on the gearshift but it only goes through when you use the clutch.
I’ve driven a few MANs with the 13spd Fuller and every single one had clutchless splits, they ranged from a 1983 16-280 to a 1988 20-331, come to think of it I’ve never used a 13spd Fuller that needed the clutch for anything other than pulling away.
The clutch brake is designed to be used for fast upshifts as well as engaging a gear at rest. The method is to fully depress the clutch the second time to reduce inertia within the box to get the gear in faster. Personally I never used it, nor the bunny hopping method on a 13/18spd, although it was the only way to endure you never found one of the millions of neutrals contained within the Twin Splitter!
Carryfast often comments about sequential shifts to keep on the torque and I have to agree with him on this, a properly driven 13spd will leave the equivalent 9spd lorry for dead in severe terrain and after my experience with the new Daf (Paccar MX) and a 13spd, I would go as far to say that some engines are so much better with a splitter function in the low range too, not so much the big lazy engines, but the smaller capacity ones would definitely benefit from more cogs…
[zb]
anorak:
robert1952:
I drove a DAF similar to the one in the report and also MANs with 13-speed Fullers. You needed the clutch to activate the splitter. It wasn’t torque-sensitive like the 12-speed Twin-splitter or the 18-speed. Robert
Interesting. Was there some sort of interlock mechanism, to prevent it working with the clutch pedal “up”?
Once again you’ve challenged the part that other beers don’t reach, Anorak! As I remember, there were ‘push’ clutches and ‘pull’ clutches. The clutch-brake, for instance, on a Transcon was activated at the bottom of the clutch travel because it was a ‘push’ clutch; but the clutch-brake on a Guy Big-J was operated from a switch on the gear-knob because it had a ‘pull’ clutch. I know how to use the equipment but don’t ask me what that’s all about because I’m already out my depth on push / pull clutches! Robert
robert1952:
[zb]
anorak:
robert1952:
I drove a DAF similar to the one in the report and also MANs with 13-speed Fullers. You needed the clutch to activate the splitter. It wasn’t torque-sensitive like the 12-speed Twin-splitter or the 18-speed. Robert
Interesting. Was there some sort of interlock mechanism, to prevent it working with the clutch pedal “up”?
Once again you’ve challenged the part that other beers don’t reach, Anorak! As I remember, there were ‘push’ clutches and ‘pull’ clutches. The clutch-brake, for instance, on a Transcon was activated at the bottom of the clutch travel because it was a ‘push’ clutch; but the clutch-brake on a Guy Big-J was operated from a switch on the gear-knob because it had a ‘pull’ clutch. I know how to use the equipment but don’t ask me what that’s all about because I’m already out my depth on push / pull clutches! Robert
That Guy device sounds like it might work quickest- no need to press the pedal, just press the switch as the stick passes through neutral. Incidentally, would the exhaust brake not perform a similar function- to save all the messing about with the clutch pedal, simply give that a boot before selecting the next gear up?
Thinking about this some more, if the clutch brake allows the gears to be meshed more quickly, and the engine, by virtue of its being declutched, is still carrying some revs, can these extra revs be used when engaging the next gear up, to minimise the effect of turbocharger lag?
Hey to all, I have never known a Daf with a 9 speed Fuller,maybe built for Britain.
And yes must splitters changed only if you used the clutch,but surely not all like Lancia and Alfa in its days with syncro.
Daf’s have Always well done with Fullers from '72 on. Some will tell you the MAN’s were better to shift.
And even some claimed that you had to use the engine brake to get a good change with a Daf.
Lots didn’t that and we had an excellent shift with our fuller in the Daf’s
I only speak of my experience of RT/RTO 95/116/146 not Twin Splitters.
We had one twin splitter that came from a Leyland Daf which had an accident here,and it went straight in scrap by scrapping the artic 
If it was now it was in my yard surely .
The US engines had a big stap forward with their engine brakes against the continentals, and not to forget lots of hauliers put our the normal engine brake because of headgasket failures caused by useing the enginebrake.
Bye Eric,
newmercman:
I’ve driven a few MANs with the 13spd Fuller and every single one had clutchless splits, they ranged from a 1983 16-280 to a 1988 20-331, come to think of it I’ve never used a 13spd Fuller that needed the clutch for anything other than pulling away.
The clutch brake is designed to be used for fast upshifts as well as engaging a gear at rest. The method is to fully depress the clutch the second time to reduce inertia within the box to get the gear in faster. Personally I never used it, nor the bunny hopping method on a 13/18spd, although it was the only way to endure you never found one of the millions of neutrals contained within the Twin Splitter!
Carryfast often comments about sequential shifts to keep on the torque and I have to agree with him on this, a properly driven 13spd will leave the equivalent 9spd lorry for dead in severe terrain and after my experience with the new Daf (Paccar MX) and a 13spd, I would go as far to say that some engines are so much better with a splitter function in the low range too, not so much the big lazy engines, but the smaller capacity ones would definitely benefit from more cogs…
Well, you’ve given me pause for thought, as I drove the same range of MANs as you did. Maybe I didn’t get the best out of them, it was a long time ago. I was driving Twin-splitters until much more recently. I have nothing against splitters. Driving style has so much to do with whether you want a high performance journey or a safe, economical one. And let’s face it sometimes we’re in the mood for one or the other! I remember sitting in an old Scania 142 thinking, ‘I’m bored, I wouldn’t mind changing gear, but the damned thing kept on lugging…’ Robert:lol:
tiptop495:
Hey to all, I have never known a Daf with a 9 speed Fuller,maybe built for Britain.
And yes must splitters changed only if you used the clutch,but surely not all like Lancia and Alfa in its days with syncro.
Daf’s have Always well done with Fullers from '72 on. Some will tell you the MAN’s were better to shift.
And even some claimed that you had to use the engine brake to get a good change with a Daf.
Lots didn’t that and we had an excellent shift with our fuller in the Daf’s
I only speak of my experience of RT/RTO 95/116/146 not Twin Splitters.
We had one twin splitter that came from a Leyland Daf which had an accident here,and it went straight in scrap by scrapping the artic If it was now it was in my yard surely .
The US engines had a big stap forward with their engine brakes against the continentals, and not to forget lots of hauliers put our the normal engine brake because of headgasket failures caused by useing the enginebrake.
Bye Eric,
Hello Eric! Yes, when the new DAF 2800 DKSE came out, it received the 16-speed ZF synchromesh gearbox but the British export version had instead a 9-speed Fuller which was considered better suited to our higher speed limit which was still 60 mph at the time (c.100 kph). I drove one, it was excellent! You mentioned Twin-splitters: the only DAF I know of with the Eaton Twin-splitter was the early version of the DAF 85. I’d have like to have tried one because the 85 was a very comfortable lorry in its day and I do love a Twin-splitter! Robert.
newmercman:
I’ve driven a few MANs with the 13spd Fuller and every single one had clutchless splits, they ranged from a 1983 16-280 to a 1988 20-331, come to think of it I’ve never used a 13spd Fuller that needed the clutch for anything other than pulling away.
The clutch brake is designed to be used for fast upshifts as well as engaging a gear at rest. The method is to fully depress the clutch the second time to reduce inertia within the box to get the gear in faster. Personally I never used it, nor the bunny hopping method on a 13/18spd, although it was the only way to endure you never found one of the millions of neutrals contained within the Twin Splitter!
Carryfast often comments about sequential shifts to keep on the torque and I have to agree with him on this, a properly driven 13spd will leave the equivalent 9spd lorry for dead in severe terrain and after my experience with the new Daf (Paccar MX) and a 13spd, I would go as far to say that some engines are so much better with a splitter function in the low range too, not so much the big lazy engines, but the smaller capacity ones would definitely benefit from more cogs…
Hey Newmercman, you have right that’s why I Always have loved so much the 16 Volvo box especially for the 88.
But what I can say is as you have time drive it Always like an 8 or 9 speed so the engine never can become lazy.
That was the case with the Volvo F12.360 12+2 they used all the speeds and so after a while a 360 8+1 was much faster.
And why all those electronics if there is a easy cheap box which only need two pedal touches to start or stop.
And which box can come home loaded without clutch by a failure AND without domage thousand miles later.
You pull it calm in crawler and off you are.
Cheers Eric,
[zb]
anorak:
robert1952:
[zb]
anorak:
robert1952:
I drove a DAF similar to the one in the report and also MANs with 13-speed Fullers. You needed the clutch to activate the splitter. It wasn’t torque-sensitive like the 12-speed Twin-splitter or the 18-speed. Robert
Interesting. Was there some sort of interlock mechanism, to prevent it working with the clutch pedal “up”?
Once again you’ve challenged the part that other beers don’t reach, Anorak! As I remember, there were ‘push’ clutches and ‘pull’ clutches. The clutch-brake, for instance, on a Transcon was activated at the bottom of the clutch travel because it was a ‘push’ clutch; but the clutch-brake on a Guy Big-J was operated from a switch on the gear-knob because it had a ‘pull’ clutch. I know how to use the equipment but don’t ask me what that’s all about because I’m already out my depth on push / pull clutches! Robert
That Guy device sounds like it might work quickest- no need to press the pedal, just press the switch as the stick passes through neutral. Incidentally, would the exhaust brake not perform a similar function- to save all the messing about with the clutch pedal, simply give that a boot before selecting the next gear up?
Thinking about this some more, if the clutch brake allows the gears to be meshed more quickly, and the engine, by virtue of its being declutched, is still carrying some revs, can these extra revs be used when engaging the next gear up, to minimise the effect of turbocharger lag?
Here’s a picture of the Guy gear-knob with the clutch-brake switch rearward. Mr Stanier will no doubt have a word or two to say about this as he probably took this picture! Robert
Eric, I did just that when the clutch broke up on my Transcon in Spain, it got me all the way home, including a poorly thought out journey through Paris in rush hour and embarking/disembarking a ferry, I even delivered the load before taking it in to get a new clutch fitted!
The only Daf I had with a Fuller was a 2800DKSE model, it had a 9spd and it needed a lot more gears IMHO. Still better than that awful ZF EcoSplit 16spd though. I hated that nasty notchy box with a passion, especially the slap over range change versions.
Oh, and by the way lest you all forget, we’re on an ERF European thread and here’s a picture of one to brighten your day! Robert:)
Good to remind us! Well, to avoid we get different threads for technical data or experiences, the result since
a lot of participants and promotors (like you Robert) did contribute with data and pictures is amazingly good
