Driving other vehicles

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

On Thursday I had reached my driving limit having done 10 hours for the second time in the week. I still had about 1 1/2 hours duty left though because I could take a 9 this time.

I was only 1/2 hour from base and they were desperate for the trailer. There hadn’t been any particular delays or ‘unexpected occurences’, I was just running behind schedule, so the TM said he would send someone down in the little van, he’d bring the wagon back and I could drive the van back.

I wasn’t happy with this as driving the van is driving and my driving time was up. But the TM assured me that driving a van out of scope of the EU Regs was work and didn’t count as driving - and I had duty time left so not a problem.

In the end I did as asked, I wanted to get home anyway and what the TM was saying kind of made sense. But now I’m not so sure. I made manual entries on an analogue chart to explain what had happened. Following morning when I got in the wagon I manually entered the ‘work’ I had done driving back last night via the digi tach and also did a print out and wrote on the back! I’ve nowt to hide, I believed what I did to be legal (ish).

So - was I legal or not? WHat do we think to this?

2

Yes. It’s legal. So long as you have working time left (which you say you did). And you record it with a manual entry as other work :slight_smile:

3

Assuming that the little van was not over 3.5 tonne driving it is classed as other work, I assume that’s what you booked it as when you did a manual entry into the digital tachograph, as long as you had enough duty time left to get back to base you were legal.

By the way there’s no need to do a manual entry into the digital tachograph and a printout, you can bin the printout as it’s not needed :wink:

4

Thanks for the sound advice. Seems I haven’t broken any rules then.

I wasn’t happy doing it 'cos I figured driving is driving, but the TM put up a good argument that kind of made sense so I went along with it. Seems crazy my driving time can be up - then I can drive some more just because its a small van.

I wasn’t happy so I made sure I covered everything, manual entry on a chart, manual entry on a print out AND I entered 40 mins of work via the manual entry on the digi.

It didn’t help that I had been told on a DCPC course that if my driving time was up I couldn’t drive ANY kind of vehicle. Obviously that was wrong

So does that mean I could drive for 4.5 hours, take a 45m break, then drive for 4.5 hours then drive for another 5 or so hours in a van? or some silly combination like that?

5

If the vehicle is not in-scope of EU regulations (not over 3.5 tonnes) the driving time is counted as other work for the EU regulations.

6

ex_reme_mech:
So - was I legal or not? WHat do we think to this?

Perfectly legal. Driving anything under 3.5t MGW counts as “other work” so you could have kept driving it until your 15h was up quite legally.

Paul

7

ex_reme_mech:
It didn’t help that I had been told on a DCPC course that if my driving time was up I couldn’t drive ANY kind of vehicle. Obviously that was wrong

So does that mean I could drive for 4.5 hours, take a 45m break, then drive for 4.5 hours then drive for another 5 or so hours in a van? or some silly combination like that?

Yet another DCPC trainer who doesn’t actually know the subject he/she is supposedly training us on then.

Your example there is perfectly legal as far as the driver’s hours rules are concerned. You need to stick another 15min break in somewhere to keep the WTD police happy though. “4.5h in a truck, 45min break, 4.5 in a truck, 15min break, 5h in a van” would be a legal shift though which is 14h driving in total. Plus of course there is then nothing stopping you getting in your car and driving to the other end of the country straight after the shift.

Paul

8

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but … this subject has cropped up again but this time there seems to be a different slant on it.

Everone sort of agreed that my EU driving time was up and that I could then continue to drive a vehicle below 3.5t as this counted as other work under EU regs. However, my TM has been looking into this and come up with a theory that the van (under 3.5) may not come under EU regs but DOES come under Domestic rules which apparently limit me to 10 hours driving.

SO - he has said that if I had only done 9 hours driving - then yes I could drive the van for 1 more hour. If I had done 10 hours driving, I couldn’t drive the van as that van came under Domestic rules and therefore so did I. he also mentioned a duty limit of 11 hours which I may well have already exceeded in the wagon so maybe at 9 hours driving and 12 hours duty … could I tehn drive the van?

I’ve attempted reading up on this and tend to kind of agree with what the TM has said. In most cases and 95% of the time it won’t make any odds to me and what I do but it is kind of bugging me now :unamused:

So - what theories do we have?

9

ex_reme_mech:
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but … this subject has cropped up again but this time there seems to be a different slant on it.

Everone sort of agreed that my EU driving time was up and that I could then continue to drive a vehicle below 3.5t as this counted as other work under EU regs. However, my TM has been looking into this and come up with a theory that the van (under 3.5) may not come under EU regs but DOES come under Domestic rules which apparently limit me to 10 hours driving.

SO - he has said that if I had only done 9 hours driving - then yes I could drive the van for 1 more hour. If I had done 10 hours driving, I couldn’t drive the van as that van came under Domestic rules and therefore so did I. he also mentioned a duty limit of 11 hours which I may well have already exceeded in the wagon so maybe at 9 hours driving and 12 hours duty … could I tehn drive the van?

I’ve attempted reading up on this and tend to kind of agree with what the TM has said. In most cases and 95% of the time it won’t make any odds to me and what I do but it is kind of bugging me now :unamused:

So - what theories do we have?

EU regs usurps UK domestic regs

If a driver did 4 hours driving under domestic regs and then did 9 hours under EU regs in a 15 hour shift that would be legal
So would doing that the other way around

The reason is that any EU driving done in a shift makes that shift an EU regs shift

10

repton:

ex_reme_mech:
So - was I legal or not? WHat do we think to this?

Perfectly legal. Driving anything under 3.5t MGW counts as “other work” so you could have kept driving it until your 15h was up quite legally.

Paul

Put it another way, would you finish your shift on a Friday and set off on your holidays with a caravan?

11

ex_reme_mech:
Everone sort of agreed that my EU driving time was up and that I could then continue to drive a vehicle below 3.5t as this counted as other work under EU regs. However, my TM has been looking into this and come up with a theory that the van (under 3.5) may not come under EU regs but DOES come under Domestic rules which apparently limit me to 10 hours driving.

If the vehicle comes under the domestic regulations it does indeed limit you to 10 hours driving.

ex_reme_mech:
SO - he has said that if I had only done 9 hours driving - then yes I could drive the van for 1 more hour. If I had done 10 hours driving, I couldn’t drive the van as that van came under Domestic rules and therefore so did I. he also mentioned a duty limit of 11 hours which I may well have already exceeded in the wagon so maybe at 9 hours driving and 12 hours duty … could I then drive the van?

Sorry I overlooked this in my first reply in this thread :blush:

Your TM is correct, driving in-scope of EU regulations counts as driving for domestic regulations so if you drove the vehicle back whilst on duty you would be limited to 10 hours driving.

When working to domestic rules you are limited to 11 hours duty time so again your TM is correct.

ex_reme_mech:
I’ve attempted reading up on this and tend to kind of agree with what the TM has said. In most cases and 95% of the time it won’t make any odds to me and what I do but it is kind of bugging me now :unamused:

The solution to the original problem would be for someone else to drive the vehicle back to base with you as passenger or use a vehicle that does not come under domestic regulations.

12

So - I am guessing that if the vehicle that came to get me - and i drove back - was a CAR and therefore not a goods vehicle then if I drove it then that wouldn’t be driving and therefore not covered by domestic rules? But I would still be working and on duty - therefore still caught by the 11 hours duty limit■■?

Is this where the driver myth about whether you are picked up with a company vehicle or a car kind of comes from?

So - if they come for me in the van - send 2 drivers and I travel back in the van as passenger i am not limited by driving time under either rules and the time as passenger counts as work (or is it POA?) but I would still be limited by duty time? 11 hours? (cos I was in a van? but of course I’m not driving)

If they came in a car out of scope of domestic rules - I could drive back? That would just count as work under EU Regs■■? Nothing under domestic■■?

I just don’t get it now. This really has thrown a spanner in the works :unamused:

13

ROG:

ex_reme_mech:
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but … this subject has cropped up again but this time there seems to be a different slant on it.

Everone sort of agreed that my EU driving time was up and that I could then continue to drive a vehicle below 3.5t as this counted as other work under EU regs. However, my TM has been looking into this and come up with a theory that the van (under 3.5) may not come under EU regs but DOES come under Domestic rules which apparently limit me to 10 hours driving.

SO - he has said that if I had only done 9 hours driving - then yes I could drive the van for 1 more hour. If I had done 10 hours driving, I couldn’t drive the van as that van came under Domestic rules and therefore so did I. he also mentioned a duty limit of 11 hours which I may well have already exceeded in the wagon so maybe at 9 hours driving and 12 hours duty … could I tehn drive the van?

I’ve attempted reading up on this and tend to kind of agree with what the TM has said. In most cases and 95% of the time it won’t make any odds to me and what I do but it is kind of bugging me now :unamused:

So - what theories do we have?

EU regs usurps UK domestic regs

If a driver did 4 hours driving under domestic regs and then did 9 hours under EU regs in a 15 hour shift that would be legal
So would doing that the other way around

The reason is that any EU driving done in a shift makes that shift an EU regs shift

I think I agree with this. The 4 hours driving a little van BEFORE driving the EU vehicle is work. I then still have 9/10 hours driving I can do within my duty.

However - if it was the other way round - 9 hours in the EU vehicle, then 4 hours in the van … it seems the 9 hours counts as driving to be added to the 4 hours and takes me over the domestic driving limit

14

Wheel Nut:

repton:

ex_reme_mech:
So - was I legal or not? WHat do we think to this?

Perfectly legal. Driving anything under 3.5t MGW counts as “other work” so you could have kept driving it until your 15h was up quite legally.

Paul

Put it another way, would you finish your shift on a Friday and set off on your holidays with a caravan?

No way would i own up to being a caravaner :wink:

15

ex_reme_mech:
So - I am guessing that if the vehicle that came to get me - and i drove back - was a CAR and therefore not a goods vehicle then if I drove it then that wouldn’t be driving and therefore not covered by domestic rules? But I would still be working and on duty - therefore still caught by the 11 hours duty limit■■?

Why would you be caught by the 11 hour duty rule if you’re not working to domestic regulations :confused:

ex_reme_mech:
Is this where the driver myth about whether you are picked up with a company vehicle or a car kind of comes from?

I’ve no idea what myth you’re talking about so I can’t answer that.

ex_reme_mech:
So - if they come for me in the van - send 2 drivers and I travel back in the van as passenger i am not limited by driving time under either rules and the time as passenger counts as work (or is it POA?) but I would still be limited by duty time? 11 hours? (cos I was in a van? but of course I’m not driving)

You’re getting obsessed with this 11 hour duty rule but it only applies when you’re working to domestic regulations which you wouldn’t be unless you was driving a vehicle that was out of scope of EU regulations but in-scope of domestic regulations.

ex_reme_mech:
If they came in a car out of scope of domestic rules - I could drive back? That would just count as work under EU Regs■■? Nothing under domestic■■?

If you drive a car as part of your employment on the same day that you drive to EU regulations the car driving would be other work.

It has nothing to do with domestic regulations because you haven’t driven to domestic regulations during that day.

Have a read of “Mixed EU/AETR and GB domestic driving” on page 29 here

Mixed EU/AETR and GB domestic driving

Many drivers spend some of their time driving under one set of rules and some under another set, perhaps even on the same day. If you work partly under EU/AETR rules and partly under GB domestic rules during a day or a week, the following points must be considered (the EU rules take precedence over the GB domestic rules):

The time you spend driving under EU rules cannot count as an off-duty period under GB domestic rules.

Driving and other duty under GB domestic rules (including non-driving work in another
employment) count as attendance at work but not as a break or rest period under EU rules.

Driving under EU rules count towards the driving and duty limits under GB domestic rules.

Any driving under EU rules in a week means that you must take a daily rest period on those days
when you actually drive under EU rules, as well as a weekly rest period.
Driving limits

GB domestic limit (a maximum of 10 hours of driving a day) must always be obeyed. But at any time
when you are actually driving under the EU rules you must obey all the rules on EU driving limits.
Other duty limits

GB domestic limit (i.e. no more than 11 hours on duty) must always be obeyed. But when working under EU rules you must also obey all the rules on breaks, daily rest (only on those days when actually driving) and weekly rest.

16

ex_reme_mech:

ROG:
EU regs usurps UK domestic regs

If a driver did 4 hours driving under domestic regs and then did 9 hours under EU regs in a 15 hour shift that would be legal
So would doing that the other way around

The reason is that any EU driving done in a shift makes that shift an EU regs shift

I think I agree with this. The 4 hours driving a little van BEFORE driving the EU vehicle is work. I then still have 9/10 hours driving I can do within my duty.

However - if it was the other way round - 9 hours in the EU vehicle, then 4 hours in the van … it seems the 9 hours counts as driving to be added to the 4 hours and takes me over the domestic driving limit

You say you agree with it then contradict it :confused: :smiley: :wink:

17

This is the way I see it -

Domestic regs does not come into a shift that comes under EU regs - either the whole of that shift is under domestic regs or is under EU regs

I dont see anything that states both sets of regs must be adhered to for the same shift but am prepared to be re-educated on that point

18

GB domestic limit (i.e. no more than 11 hours on duty) must always be obeyed. But when working under EU rules you must also obey all the rules on breaks, daily rest (only on those days when actually driving) and weekly rest.

19

tachograph:

GB domestic limit (i.e. no more than 11 hours on duty) must always be obeyed. But when working under EU rules you must also obey all the rules on breaks, daily rest (only on those days when actually driving) and weekly rest.

Hmmm… following that would it mean doing 9 hours driving and 4 hours other work in a 15 hour EU shift would be illegal as it exceeds the 11 hour working day limit for domestic regs ?

20

ROG:

tachograph:

GB domestic limit (i.e. no more than 11 hours on duty) must always be obeyed. But when working under EU rules you must also obey all the rules on breaks, daily rest (only on those days when actually driving) and weekly rest.

Hmmm… following that would it mean doing 9 hours driving and 4 hours other work in a 15 hour EU shift would be illegal as it exceeds the 11 hour working day limit for domestic regs ?

I think only if the 4 hours other work was after the EU stuff was in a vehicle subject to Domestic rules - i.e. a 3.5t van.

The conclusion I came to today was;
5 hrs driving 3.5t van followed by 5 hours driving 17t rigid = 5 hours driving and 5 hours work and I could do a further 4 hours driving in the 17t but I couldn’t get into the 3.5t van and drive as I would then exceed 10 hrs driving
5 hrs driving 17t rigid followed by 5 hours driving 3.5t van = 10 hours driving and the limit for that shift

Driving a vehicle in scope of EU regs counts as driving when moving into a domestic regs vehicle
Driving a domestic regs vehicle counts as work when moving into a vehicle in scope of EU regs

Surely - somewhere in a mixed driving operation we are either governed by one or the other sets of rules?