I am moving this thread to the more appropriate forum = SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
Zac_A:
2) Article 34(5)(b)(iv) of retained Regulation (EU) 165/2014 requires periods of annual leave and sick leave, as well as breaks and rest to be recorded on the tachograph.
This refers to the fact that drivers must use the driver card every day they drive and use the correct activity mode on the tachograph, but I thought we all agreed that it’s not appropriate or required to input several days activities into the tachograph so I’m missing the point.
I’m not even going to bother replying to the other stuff about me being ludicrously out of touch and not caring about giving false information ec’t that’s just a smokescreen, the reality is that you have not posted a single piece of evidence that the ? symbol cannot now be used in conjunction with written manual entries.
Well it was kinda obvious how this thread was going to go.
no extra insight or definitive answer just conjecture and confusion.
tachograph:
I’m not even going to bother replying to the other stuff about me being ludicrously out of touch and not caring about giving false information ec’t that’s just a smokescreen, the reality is that you have not posted a single piece of evidence that the ? symbol cannot now be used in conjunction with written manual entries.
I have, but you’re ignoring it as it doesn’t suit you to accept you’re incalcitrantly out of touch with legislative changes. I’ve seen you do this before, you never accept there are things you do not know. However, the industry has moved on, whether you can accept that or not I do not care.
adam277:
Well it was kinda obvious how this thread was going to go.no extra insight or definitive answer just conjecture and confusion.
I’ve posted several links to the definitive answer, there’s no conjecture at DVSA’s end, full records of all activities (whether in scope or out of scope) are required. A suggestion of “unknown activity” is not a “full record”. Endex.
Zac_A:
adam277:
Well it was kinda obvious how this thread was going to go.no extra insight or definitive answer just conjecture and confusion.
I’ve posted several links to the definitive answer, there’s no conjecture at DVSA’s end, full records of all activities (whether in scope or out of scope) are required. A suggestion of “unknown activity” is not a “full record”. Endex.
It says OR record sheet. this is one the DVSA gave as an example on their website.
assets.publishing.service.gov.u … -sheet.pdf
I mean no one here is saying not to record your activity. We are just debating over the use of the ‘?’ symbol on the tacho. People are still required to write down their activity in some form. Now… I am sure we can get into another debate about writing on the back of a tachograph roll or ‘officially’ approved record sheets lol.
Personally I just use my notebook.
Either way the ? makes sense so people should use it. If you work in a warehouse for 4 weeks due to an issue with your driving licence it would be moronic not to use the ? symbol and instead input every single day you worked. your just gonna end up getting into issues when you ■■■■ up with the manual entries lol.
Meh… I’m done with this topic, people can do what they like as long as their TM isn’t me. I’ve shared here the consensus understandings of many highly experienced TMs who debate the legal intricacies in great detail, seeking advice from DVSA, OTC and various specialist transport solicitors.
It doesn’t matter if people don’t believe it, think it is “stupid” or that it doesn’t matter. Anyone here should be able to understand that full records of all activities are required, and attempting to claim “unknown activity” as part of a “full record” just isn’t going to wash.
Zac_A:
tachograph:
I’m not even going to bother replying to the other stuff about me being ludicrously out of touch and not caring about giving false information ec’t that’s just a smokescreen, the reality is that you have not posted a single piece of evidence that the ? symbol cannot now be used in conjunction with written manual entries.I have, but you’re ignoring it as it doesn’t suit you to accept you’re incalcitrantly out of touch with legislative changes. I’ve seen you do this before, you never accept there are things you do not know. However, the industry has moved on, whether you can accept that or not I do not care.
I’m not ignoring anything, you simply have not provided any evidence that the ? cannot legally be used in conjunction with written manual entries.
Frankly the fact that you have to resort to trying to discredit people who disagree with you, in this case me, shows the weakness of your argument.
Not that it’s particularly relevant but in the 18 years I’ve been on this board I’ve never had a problem accepting my mistakes when proven wrong, but you have not proven anyone wrong about using the ? symbol, you seem to want everyone to just accept your word that it cannot be used.
Zac_A:
Meh… I’m done with this topic, people can do what they like as long as their TM isn’t me. I’ve shared here the consensus understandings of many highly experienced TMs who debate the legal intricacies in great detail, seeking advice from DVSA, OTC and various specialist transport solicitors.It doesn’t matter if people don’t believe it, think it is “stupid” or that it doesn’t matter. Anyone here should be able to understand that full records of all activities are required, and attempting to claim “unknown activity” as part of a “full record” just isn’t going to wash.
No-one is or has disputed that full records need to be kept you’re the only one who keeps talking about that.
The ? symbol does not mean the activity is unknown to anyone it means it’s unknown on the tachograph or driver card so is, or should be, recorded in some other way.
You say you would tell your drivers to use the other work symbol which for someone doing another job for two weeks is clearly a false and inaccurate record, so that’s clearly not keeping full and accurate records, it just makes no sense.
Zac_A:
. Anyone here should be able to understand that full records of all activities are required, and attempting to claim “unknown activity” as part of a “full record” just isn’t going to wash.
This goes back to me saying you don’t understand. How is “unknown activity” ( recorded on your card ) plus a full manual description worse than “a false symbol” (recorded on your card) plus a full manual description?
I’ve done my best to read all of your postings and links and could not find anything that prohibited the use of ? Only that a full record is available. (Which it would be if you used ? plus a full manual record.)
stu675:
Zac_A:
. Anyone here should be able to understand that full records of all activities are required, and attempting to claim “unknown activity” as part of a “full record” just isn’t going to wash.This goes back to me saying you don’t understand. How is “unknown activity” ( recorded on your card ) plus a full manual description worse than “a false symbol” (recorded on your card) plus a full manual description?
I’ve done my best to read all of your postings and links and could not find anything that prohibited the use of ? Only that a full record is available. (Which it would be if you used ? plus a full manual record.)
Why don’t you email DVSA and ask them about it?
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simcor:
Why don’t you email DVSA and ask them about it?Sent from my CPH2173 using Tapatalk
Even better, call into a DVSA station and tell them you’re using “?” and see what happens 
adam277:
It says OR record sheet. this is one the DVSA gave as an example on their website.
assets.publishing.service.gov.u … -sheet.pdf.
It seems “record sheet” is tightly defined
561/2006 Article 6:
5. A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in point (e) of Article 4 as well as any time spent driving a vehicle used for commercial operations that do not fall within the scope of this Regulation, and shall record any periods of availability, as defined in point (b) of Article 3 of Directive 2002/15/EC, in accordance with point (b)(iii) of Article 34(5) of Regulation (EU) No 165/2014 of the European Parliament and of the Council (1). This record shall be entered either manually on a record sheet or printout or by use of manual input facilities on recording equipment.
165/2014 Article 34:
Article 34Use of driver cards and record sheets
165/2014 Article 2 (Definitions):
(e)‘record sheet’ means a sheet designed to accept and retain recorded data, to be placed in an analogue tachograph, and on which the marking devices of the analogue tachograph continuously inscribe the information to be recorded;
As an aside, if you are reading 561/2006 on legislation.gov.uk and have selected “Latest available (Revised)” all the 2020/1054 amendmets have been applied.
simcor:
stu675:
Zac_A:
. Anyone here should be able to understand that full records of all activities are required, and attempting to claim “unknown activity” as part of a “full record” just isn’t going to wash.This goes back to me saying you don’t understand. How is “unknown activity” ( recorded on your card ) plus a full manual description worse than “a false symbol” (recorded on your card) plus a full manual description?
I’ve done my best to read all of your postings and links and could not find anything that prohibited the use of ? Only that a full record is available. (Which it would be if you used ? plus a full manual record.)
Why don’t you email DVSA and ask them about it?
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I’m not the OP. It doesn’t concern me beyond chat on a forum.
But I notice no one has been able to copy and paste a reference to the ? symbol not being legal from the legislation.
stu675:
But I notice no one has been able to copy and paste a reference to the ? symbol not being legal from the legislation.
You’re not going to get one because the legislation says what you can/should/must do not what you can’t do. So as simcor said earlier in the thread if it isn’t inlcuded it isn’t allowed. For example (this legislation may be out of date) 165/2014 Article 34 paragraph 3 (and 5b) and 1985 No. 3821 ANNEX I B Division III. Division 6. (6.2). Neither list ?/Unknown.
tachograph:
The ? symbol means “Unknown” and is a recognised tachograph symbol that’s in the EU tachograph specifications (Regulation (EU) 2016/799) and both the VDO and Stoneridge tachograph manuals, it simply means that an entry is made on the tachograph of an unknown activity.
2016/799 only says what it is
UNKNOWN periods correspond to periods where the driver card was not inserted in the recording equipment and for which no manual entry of driver activities was made.
and that it will be considered similar to POA/Break when computing ‘continuous driving time’ and ‘■■■■■■■■■■ break time’ (2016 No. 799 ANNEX I C Division 1. n & p). It doesn’t say you can use it.
tachograph:
Why would they put the ? symbol into the tachograph specifications
It is required for interrupted manual entries (1985 No. 3821 ANNEX I B Division III. Division 6.). If you just let the tachograph timeout at the manual entry prompt, for example, what else could it record?
tachograph:
the tachograph user manuals as a symbol the driver can use if it’s not legal to use it
Seems like they’re out of spec (1985 No. 3821 ANNEX I B).
It looks like this has always been in the legislation but was just not enforced/they used their discretion. Now apparently they’re going to enforce it. It’ll probably make their jobs a lot easier, just scan the card for computer analysis.
ACKCHYUALLY
Edit: (I’d be happier if I was wrong, so feel free to prove it wrong.)
Cuttlefish:
adam277:
It says OR record sheet. this is one the DVSA gave as an example on their website.
assets.publishing.service.gov.u … -sheet.pdf.It seems “record sheet” is tightly defined
561/2006 Article 6:
5. A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in point (e) of Article 4 as well as any time spent driving a vehicle used for commercial operations that do not fall within the scope of this Regulation, and shall record any periods of availability, as defined in point (b) of Article 3 of Directive 2002/15/EC, in accordance with point (b)(iii) of Article 34(5) of Regulation (EU) No 165/2014 of the European Parliament and of the Council (1). This record shall be entered either manually on a record sheet or printout or by use of manual input facilities on recording equipment.
165/2014 Article 34:
Article 34Use of driver cards and record sheets
165/2014 Article 2 (Definitions):
(e)‘record sheet’ means a sheet designed to accept and retain recorded data, to be placed in an analogue tachograph, and on which the marking devices of the analogue tachograph continuously inscribe the information to be recorded;
As an aside, if you are reading 561/2006 on legislation.gov.uk and have selected “Latest available (Revised)” all the 2020/1054 amendmets have been applied.
apparently record sheets are tightly defined lol.
I remember some guys a while back on here debating about the ones got off amazon are technically not right… completely stupid haha.
In my view a blank piece of paper is good enough.
adam277:
Cuttlefish:
adam277:
It says OR record sheet. this is one the DVSA gave as an example on their website.
assets.publishing.service.gov.u … -sheet.pdf.It seems “record sheet” is tightly defined
561/2006 Article 6:
5. A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in point (e) of Article 4 as well as any time spent driving a vehicle used for commercial operations that do not fall within the scope of this Regulation, and shall record any periods of availability, as defined in point (b) of Article 3 of Directive 2002/15/EC, in accordance with point (b)(iii) of Article 34(5) of Regulation (EU) No 165/2014 of the European Parliament and of the Council (1). This record shall be entered either manually on a record sheet or printout or by use of manual input facilities on recording equipment.
165/2014 Article 34:
Article 34Use of driver cards and record sheets
165/2014 Article 2 (Definitions):
(e)‘record sheet’ means a sheet designed to accept and retain recorded data, to be placed in an analogue tachograph, and on which the marking devices of the analogue tachograph continuously inscribe the information to be recorded;
As an aside, if you are reading 561/2006 on legislation.gov.uk and have selected “Latest available (Revised)” all the 2020/1054 amendmets have been applied.
apparently record sheets are tightly defined lol.
I remember some guys a while back on here debating about the ones got off amazon are technically not right… completely stupid haha.In my view a blank piece of paper is good enough.
Does this mean when doing none tacho work (3.5t/7.5t) I need to account for my time in my diary as per tacho format ie…
7 - 7:30am Other Work
7:30am - 12noon Driving.
12pm - 1:15pm POA (unloading)
1:15pm - 2pm Break
2pm - 6:15pm Driving
6:15pm - 6:30pm Other Work
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WideWolf:
adam277:
Cuttlefish:
adam277:
It says OR record sheet. this is one the DVSA gave as an example on their website.
assets.publishing.service.gov.u … -sheet.pdf.It seems “record sheet” is tightly defined
561/2006 Article 6:
5. A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in point (e) of Article 4 as well as any time spent driving a vehicle used for commercial operations that do not fall within the scope of this Regulation, and shall record any periods of availability, as defined in point (b) of Article 3 of Directive 2002/15/EC, in accordance with point (b)(iii) of Article 34(5) of Regulation (EU) No 165/2014 of the European Parliament and of the Council (1). This record shall be entered either manually on a record sheet or printout or by use of manual input facilities on recording equipment.
165/2014 Article 34:
Article 34Use of driver cards and record sheets
165/2014 Article 2 (Definitions):
(e)‘record sheet’ means a sheet designed to accept and retain recorded data, to be placed in an analogue tachograph, and on which the marking devices of the analogue tachograph continuously inscribe the information to be recorded;
As an aside, if you are reading 561/2006 on legislation.gov.uk and have selected “Latest available (Revised)” all the 2020/1054 amendmets have been applied.
apparently record sheets are tightly defined lol.
I remember some guys a while back on here debating about the ones got off amazon are technically not right… completely stupid haha.In my view a blank piece of paper is good enough.
Does this mean when doing none tacho work (3.5t/7.5t) I need to account for my time in my diary as per tacho format ie…
7 - 7:30am Other Work
7:30am - 12noon Driving.
12pm - 1:15pm POA (unloading)
1:15pm - 2pm Break
2pm - 6:15pm Driving
6:15pm - 6:30pm Other WorkSent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk
No
stu675:
WideWolf:
adam277:
Cuttlefish:
adam277:
It says OR record sheet. this is one the DVSA gave as an example on their website.
assets.publishing.service.gov.u … -sheet.pdf.It seems “record sheet” is tightly defined
561/2006 Article 6:
5. A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in point (e) of Article 4 as well as any time spent driving a vehicle used for commercial operations that do not fall within the scope of this Regulation, and shall record any periods of availability, as defined in point (b) of Article 3 of Directive 2002/15/EC, in accordance with point (b)(iii) of Article 34(5) of Regulation (EU) No 165/2014 of the European Parliament and of the Council (1). This record shall be entered either manually on a record sheet or printout or by use of manual input facilities on recording equipment.
165/2014 Article 34:
Article 34Use of driver cards and record sheets
165/2014 Article 2 (Definitions):
(e)‘record sheet’ means a sheet designed to accept and retain recorded data, to be placed in an analogue tachograph, and on which the marking devices of the analogue tachograph continuously inscribe the information to be recorded;
As an aside, if you are reading 561/2006 on legislation.gov.uk and have selected “Latest available (Revised)” all the 2020/1054 amendmets have been applied.
apparently record sheets are tightly defined lol.
I remember some guys a while back on here debating about the ones got off amazon are technically not right… completely stupid haha.In my view a blank piece of paper is good enough.
Does this mean when doing none tacho work (3.5t/7.5t) I need to account for my time in my diary as per tacho format ie…
7 - 7:30am Other Work
7:30am - 12noon Driving.
12pm - 1:15pm POA (unloading)
1:15pm - 2pm Break
2pm - 6:15pm Driving
6:15pm - 6:30pm Other WorkSent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk
No
So are you saying we Shouldn’t record none tacho time or we shouldn’t record it in a tacho format?
Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk
WideWolf:
stu675:
WideWolf:
adam277:
Cuttlefish:
adam277:
It says OR record sheet. this is one the DVSA gave as an example on their website.
assets.publishing.service.gov.u … -sheet.pdf.It seems “record sheet” is tightly defined
561/2006 Article 6:
5. A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in point (e) of Article 4 as well as any time spent driving a vehicle used for commercial operations that do not fall within the scope of this Regulation, and shall record any periods of availability, as defined in point (b) of Article 3 of Directive 2002/15/EC, in accordance with point (b)(iii) of Article 34(5) of Regulation (EU) No 165/2014 of the European Parliament and of the Council (1). This record shall be entered either manually on a record sheet or printout or by use of manual input facilities on recording equipment.
165/2014 Article 34:
Article 34Use of driver cards and record sheets
165/2014 Article 2 (Definitions):
(e)‘record sheet’ means a sheet designed to accept and retain recorded data, to be placed in an analogue tachograph, and on which the marking devices of the analogue tachograph continuously inscribe the information to be recorded;
As an aside, if you are reading 561/2006 on legislation.gov.uk and have selected “Latest available (Revised)” all the 2020/1054 amendmets have been applied.
apparently record sheets are tightly defined lol.
I remember some guys a while back on here debating about the ones got off amazon are technically not right… completely stupid haha.In my view a blank piece of paper is good enough.
Does this mean when doing none tacho work (3.5t/7.5t) I need to account for my time in my diary as per tacho format ie…
7 - 7:30am Other Work
7:30am - 12noon Driving.
12pm - 1:15pm POA (unloading)
1:15pm - 2pm Break
2pm - 6:15pm Driving
6:15pm - 6:30pm Other WorkSent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk
No
So are you saying we Shouldn’t record none tacho time or we shouldn’t record it in a tacho format?
Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk
Read this link in full
gov.uk/government/publicati … icle%206(5%20of%20retained,from%20analogue%20tachographs)%20or%20on
There’s a big difference if you have no EU driving in a fixed week. If that is the case a record as simple as “Week 1
Monday to Friday (include dates) 40 hours working in the office
Friday to Monday (include dates) rest period of 60 hours from 6pm on Friday to 6am on Monday” would be sufficient.
Otherwise, what you suggest would be good for each day.
Also note a 7.5T will have a tacho.
Omg
DVSA no longer say recording your rest period under ? Is acceptable, that is the change and you must record it under the bed symbol.
If you make a written record then the only legal option when you next put your card in is to record the time the written record covers is ? I don’t see how anyone remotely clued up wouldn’t see this as obvious.
You must have every minute allocated with an activity of either other work, driving, rest/break or poa. That record must be made via the tacho when you card is in, or when when you card is out manually entered on to you card via the tacho, written on to printout paper or a wax chart, or GB domestic logbook if you’ve been under that. Or under certain circumstances you can use a letter of attestation.
If you use any other way other than a manual entry for recording the time the card is out then you’re still going to have to record on the card what it is to record since it was last ejected, so it’s clear the only activity that fits is unallocated time as you have the record elsewhere made in a legal form.
How can you record rest? As you were not resting the entire time so it would create a false record.
How can you record poa? As you were not on poa and it would create a false record.
How can you record other work? As you were not on other work for the entire time so it would create a false record and it would throw up so many infringments then the tacho would be out of sync till you had a 45 minute break if a VDU, it’d carry on from the previous driving time, a stoneridge would say you’ve got no time available until you’ve had a weekly rest, the 4:30 count down would be on zero so you’d need to write down your times or do a printout to see what you’ve done.
They are your only other 3 options, clearly none of which it can be, if you say no to manual entry as you have your legally required records elsewhere in a legal format, then the tacho will record ? On the card for the time it was out.
Zac should know better, being a TM n’all but then he’s proved he’s clueless on on GB domestic / EU assessment thread and now taking what would seem to be his longest break off here with his tail between his legs, no doubt just looking as a guest!