Driving a van and tacho usage

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
21

stu675:

simcor:
I am fairly sure the old version of GV262 it was written about ? as unknown time.

The current version which is online and somewhat different format to the old GV262 unless I mistaken shows only pictograms for driving, POA, other work and rest. No mention of ? anymore. No mention of unknown time in wording.

I can’t actually find a download of the older GV262 for comparison and never have had a printed book version.

That image is the only copy of drivers hours rules I can find like the old GV262 downloadable file not in html format. Agai. It mention nothing about the ? on a tacho anymore.

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IMAGE REMOVED AS MAKING PAGE TOO WIDE - ROG THE MOD
Ok, correct me if I’m wrong, I believe that every digital tacho card in existence has a symbol recorded for every minute of every day 24-7, 365 for the up to 5 years of its validity.

With me so far?

Which symbol do you suggest the op uses for the couple of weeks in question?

Bottom line is you have been told DVSA no longer accept ? As a valid entry. It cannot be used anymore. Whether you like it or not by using it you are potentially going to face fines for using it when stopped by DVSA and having your records checked.

Zac clearly knows what he is talking about as I said before, he is able to quote the exact bits of legislation of the changes.

No pictograms of ? In either of those documents and no mention on unknown time mentioned in them either. Now isn’t that funny that neither are mentioned anywhere, I wonder why that may be?

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22

stu675:
Thanks for typing all that out. [never heard of cutting and pasting?]
Which confirms that you must record ? on your digital tacho card record if you have supplementary manual records.

I’m always happy to have any of my misunderstandings corrected (every day’s a school day) so if you can point me in the direction of the the precise legislative information that backs up that assertion, I’d be more than happy to read it.

GV262 is, as gov.uk says itself, “general guidance” , it’s not an official legislative publication in the same way as (EC) No. 561/2006 is (the good old EU drivers regs for those who aren’t familiar with the numbers), or (EU) 2020/1054 (the August 2020 updates to the 2006 rules) and it’s far from being “the last word” in resolving issues of whether DVSA or Plod will, or will not, dish out a fine, those guys will never quote GV262 as they “write you up”

This guide (sometimes known as the ‘GV262’) gives general guidance about drivers’ and tachograph rules for vehicles used for the carriage of goods.
…
Check the legislation in annex 1 and get legal advice to check your legal position.
gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … s-vehicles

For the avoidance of doubt, yes, I’m a working External TM for half my week. Amongst other things I also deliver Transport Manager Refresher training to other TMs (via an accredited TMCPC exam provider) which means I’m obliged to always be (as much as humanly possible) on top of what the latest legislation says, and just as importantly, be aware of how DVSA are choosing to interpret and enforce this legislation when they’re out and about.

The very last thing I want is for my drivers to be kicking off with me saying “Oi! You said (XYZ) was OK but I’ve just been fined for it!”

23

stu675:
Ok, correct me if I’m wrong, I believe that every digital tacho card in existence has a symbol recorded for every minute of every day 24-7, 365 for the up to 5 years of its validity.

With me so far?

Which single symbol (as we all agree it is too complicated to do a manual entry) do you suggest the op uses for the couple of weeks in question?

@Zac_A I’d be grateful if you could address this point.

Hopefully it is simple enough for you to understand.

24

Zac_A:

stu675:
Thanks for typing all that out. [never heard of cutting and pasting?]
Which confirms that you must record ? on your digital tacho card record if you have supplementary manual records.

I’m always happy to have any of my misunderstandings corrected (every day’s a school day) so if you can point me in the direction of the the precise legislative information that backs up that assertion, I’d be more than happy to read it.

]

Really■■? Instead of asking what you didn’t understand, you just accused me of not understanding [emoji849]

The legislation is that it would be fraud to use the bed symbol. It would be fraud and stupid to use the other work symbol. Now do you understand?

25

stu675:
Which single symbol (as we all agree it is too complicated to do a manual entry) do you suggest the op uses for the couple of weeks in question?

stu675:
@zac I’d be grateful if you could address this point.

I already did…

If you go back to the post where I pasted the Attestation Letter screenshot, you will see that I wrote:
If my drivers were swapping between out-of-scope and in-scope vehicles (they don’t do this) I’d expect them to do an ME for Other Work (crossed hammers), then fill in the blanks using option 3 above, as this is the simplest option.

stu675:
Hopefully it is simple enough for you to understand.

Sarcasm? :laughing: I kinda hope not, but if that was your intention you’ve got an unintended egg/face conjuction going on.

26

No-ones suggesting that complete records do not have to be kept for the past 28 days, the DVSA do require that you carry record for the past 28 days, how much detail needs to be on those records depends on the circumstances.

In this topic we’re discussing someone having two complete weeks away from driving vehicles that are in-scope of EU regulations.
The OP has said that he’s keeping written records for those two weeks and has been advised that legally those written records should be on charts or printouts though after a very quick check on the current rules it does appear that the DVSA will now accept attestation forms, I haven’t studied it enough to say for certain but accept that it looks that way.

The question the OP asked was what to show on the tachograph for those two weeks work where the records will not be recorded on the driver card.
The answer is that the OP should keep written records for those two weeks, which he already knows, and on the tachograph should show the ? symbol from the end of the last shift when the tachograph was used to the start of the new shift when a tachograph is used, whether or not that will be the entire time that the driver card was not in a tachograph will depend on whether or not manual entries are needed for the end of the last tachograph shift or the start of the new tachograph shift.

The ? symbol means “Unknown” and is a recognised tachograph symbol that’s in the EU tachograph specifications (Regulation (EU) 2016/799) and both the VDO and Stoneridge tachograph manuals, it simply means that an entry is made on the tachograph of an unknown activity.

The OP cannot use the rest symbol for the two weeks van driving because it’s illegal as it would be to use the work or POA symbols, an accurate record needs to be kept but depending on the circumstances that accurate record does not necessarily have to be on the driver card, hence the use of written manual entries on printouts ec’t.

27

Ok, so you can have 2 solid weeks of other work on your card prior to starting a shift and the tacho will recognise that it’s a new day/week with all your driving time cleared?

Thanks for clarifying.

28

tachograph:
No-ones suggesting that complete records do not have to be kept for the past 28 days, the DVSA do require that you carry record for the past 28 days, how much detail needs to be on those records depends on the circumstances.

In this topic we’re discussing someone having two complete weeks away from driving vehicles that are in-scope of EU regulations.
The OP has said that he’s keeping written records for those two weeks and has been advised that legally those written records should be on charts or printouts though after a very quick check on the current rules it does appear that the DVSA will now accept attestation forms, I haven’t studied it enough to say for certain but accept that it looks that way.

The question the OP asked was what to show on the tachograph for those two weeks work where the records will not be recorded on the driver card.
The answer is that the OP should keep written records for those two weeks, which he already knows, and on the tachograph should show the ? symbol from the end of the last shift when the tachograph was used to the start of the new shift when a tachograph is used, whether or not that will be the entire time that the driver card was not in a tachograph will depend on whether or not manual entries are needed for the end of the last tachograph shift or the start of the new tachograph shift.

The ? symbol means “Unknown” and is a recognised tachograph symbol that’s in the EU tachograph specifications (Regulation (EU) 2016/799) and both the VDO and Stoneridge tachograph manuals, it simply means that an entry is made on the tachograph of an unknown activity.

To the people arguing that the ? symbol cannot be use please answer the OPs question about what he should put into the tachograph to explain the two weeks work that is manually recorded on printouts ec’t but not recorded on the driver card?

Zac is saying use the other work symbol.
(Yes it seems nonsense to me too, because surely the ? symbol displays exactly what you intend to convey. Obviously it needs further explanation elsewhere. But if they have changed the law that you can’t use it, so be it)

29

^^^ Sorry I was editing my post as you posted.
the edit is:

The OP cannot use the rest symbol for the two weeks van driving because it’s illegal as it would be to use the work or POA symbols, an accurate record needs to be kept but depending on the circumstances that accurate record does not necessarily have to be on the driver card, hence the use of written manual entries on printouts ec’t.

30

tachograph:
^^^ Sorry I was editing my post as you posted.
the edit is:

The OP cannot use the rest symbol for the two weeks van driving because it’s illegal as it would be to use the work or POA symbols, an accurate record needs to be kept but depending on the circumstances that accurate record does not necessarily have to be on the driver card, hence the use of written manual entries on printouts ec’t.

I agree that it should be fraudulent to use the other work for a solid 2 weeks, but if Zac is saying that’s what is required by the law (which is an ■■■) (because it doesn’t affect me) I’m happy to accept it as true.

31

Zac_A:
[

Sarcasm? :.

Let’s call it frustration. [emoji6]

32

stu675:

tachograph:
^^^ Sorry I was editing my post as you posted.
the edit is:

The OP cannot use the rest symbol for the two weeks van driving because it’s illegal as it would be to use the work or POA symbols, an accurate record needs to be kept but depending on the circumstances that accurate record does not necessarily have to be on the driver card, hence the use of written manual entries on printouts ec’t.

I agree that it should be fraudulent to use the other work for a solid 2 weeks, but if Zac is saying that’s what is required by the law (which is an ■■■) (because it doesn’t affect me) I’m happy to accept it as true.

I’m sorry but I don’t accept that using the work symbol for time that you’re not working is required by law, I doubt that anyone’s going to be prosecuted for recording work then they’re on rest but it is technically wrong as it’s an inaccurate record.

Why would they put the ? symbol into the tachograph specifications and the tachograph user manuals as a symbol the driver can use if it’s not legal to use it :confused:

We don’t even need to talk about what two weeks of other work is going to do to your tachograph warnings :smiley:

As always if I’m proven wrong so be it but as yet I’ve seen no convincing evidence that the ? cannot be used in conjunction with written manual records.

33

tachograph:
Why would they put the ? symbol into the tachograph specifications and the tachograph user manuals as a symbol the driver can use if it’s not legal to use it :confused:

Well most likely because the guy who wrote the regs is a guy that has to open his mouth to breathe and dribbles when he talks.

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ECctMQsUwAAa2Us.png680×680 80.7 KB

34

Acorn:

tachograph:
Legally your records for the van work should be on printouts or charts, or log sheets if you’re using them which presumably you’re not, there appears to be some doubt as to whether or not the DVSA will still accept records kept in a notebook, I’m not saying they won’t accept them I’m just saying there seems to be some doubt.
For the van work you only need to record the start and finish times, if the van work is for a transport company you normally work for you will need to record the breaks but not the driving times..

Are you sure? The DVSA template shows driving hours is required, but a daily total, not in fine detail.

As far as I’m aware you don’t need to record out of scope driving in weeks that you do not drive in-scope of EU regulations, I’m not sure what template you’re referring to but I’d like to see it in case I’m wrong so if you could post a link or say where it can be found I’d be grateful.

35

tachograph:
Why would they put the ? symbol into the tachograph specifications and the tachograph user manuals as a symbol the driver can use if it’s not legal to use it :confused:

I’d say because previously it was accepted by DVSA, but as I’ve said I’ve been told DVSA are not longer allowing it’s use. Unfortunately it would take a long time to eradicate all mentions of it in so e things like user manuals and removing the option from tacho heads. Similarly it depends on what country and what laws it can or can’t be used in. Hence may never be removed from the tacho head for use in some countries maybe.

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36

tachograph:
it does appear that the DVSA will now accept attestation forms, I haven’t studied it enough to say for certain but accept that it looks that way

.

I have studied this and had communications with DVSA, as have several other TMs of my acquaintance: the specific form of attestation letter I have shown is what they will accept, and no other form.

tachograph:
The question the OP asked was what to show on the tachograph for those two weeks work where the records will not be recorded on the driver card.
The answer is that the OP should keep written records for those two weeks, which he already knows, and on the tachograph should show the ? symbol from the end of the last shift

to that, and…

tachograph:
The ? symbol means “Unknown” and is a recognised tachograph symbol that’s in the EU tachograph specifications (Regulation (EU) 2016/799) and both the VDO and Stoneridge tachograph manuals, it simply means that an entry is made on the tachograph of an unknown activity

I disagree, based on recent direct discussions with DVSA this is unacceptable.

I don’t know if you are retired from the industry to some degree, or still active, but I am very much active, and I’m telling Stu what has come from my current and direct discussions with DVSA, as well as with a vast number of other TMs in specific professional social media groups, and the same as I tell the drivers who I am responsible for.

If someone want to take your advice, that’s up to them, but I would point out to them that your 2016 references have no bearing on the 2022 legislation and current interpretation of that newer legislation by DVSA.

37

tachograph:

Acorn:

tachograph:
Legally your records for the van work should be on printouts or charts, or log sheets if you’re using them which presumably you’re not, there appears to be some doubt as to whether or not the DVSA will still accept records kept in a notebook, I’m not saying they won’t accept them I’m just saying there seems to be some doubt.
For the van work you only need to record the start and finish times, if the van work is for a transport company you normally work for you will need to record the breaks but not the driving times..

Are you sure? The DVSA template shows driving hours is required, but a daily total, not in fine detail.

As far as I’m aware you don’t need to record out of scope driving in weeks that you do not drive in-scope of EU regulations, I’m not sure what template you’re referring to but I’d like to see it in case I’m wrong so if you could post a link or say where it can be found I’d be grateful.

I’m fairly sure Acorn is referring to the screenshot I posted earlier, which is the only DVSA approved Attestation Template letter. There isn’t a DVSA-specific link to view or download it directly, it has to be requested individually from them, but as I believe Acorn will verify, this is available on at least one specific professional social media groups, Qualified Transport Managers (Facebook)

38

Zac_A:
If someone want to take your advice, that’s up to them, but I would point out to them that your 2016 references have no bearing on the 2022 legislation and current interpretation of that newer legislation by DVSA.

What relevant 2022 legislation are you referring to ?

As far as I’m aware the regulations I linked to are still in force, they have been amended but I can’t find any amendment to the tachograph specifications that changes anything I’ve said.

If you know of regulations that have repealed the 2016 tachograph specifications please post a link.

Next time you have a discussion with a member of the DVSA please tell them that if they’re suggesting that drivers should knowingly input a false record into the tachograph then amend it with a written entry on a printout they’ve completely lost the plot :smiley:

Sorry but until I see some evidence that the DVSA are really that stupid or illogical I shall continue to advise people to use the ? symbol in conjunction with written manual entries.

39

tachograph:

Zac_A:
If someone want to take your advice, that’s up to them, but I would point out to them that your 2016 references have no bearing on the 2022 legislation and current interpretation of that newer legislation by DVSA.

What relevant 2022 legislation are you referring to ?

I’ve already posted this earlier, so I think your comment is ludicrously inappropriate.
If you need to be told about (EU) 2020/1054 then that shows how far out of touch with the industry you are
legislation.gov.uk/eur/2020/1054

tachograph:
As far as I’m aware…

Your awareness isn’t going to change when you are delibrately ignoring legislative evidence put before you, and then pretending it hasn’t already been spoken of.

tachograph:
If you know of regulations that have repealed the 2016 tachograph specifications please post a link.

Once again… :unamused: The newer legislation (see above) and it’s interpretation by DVSA has superceeded the now obsolete use of “?” deeming it to be no longer acceptable. It does not need to be repealed, only superceeded by more stringent measures, which it has been. Anyone actively engaged in the TM, or otherwise advisory, side of the industry is already well aware of that.

tachograph:
Next time you have a discussion with a member of the DVSA please tell them that if they’re suggesting that drivers should knowingly input a false record into the tachograph then amend it with a written entry on a printout they’ve completely lost the plot :smiley:

It’s your suggestion of using “unknown activity” that would be a false record. The driver’s activities are self-evidently not unknown, nor is there an allowance that they could be, (remember “full records of activities” are required?) and to suggest otherwise looks like fraud or ignorance of the regulations - which I would emphasise is no defence in the eyes of any branch of the law.

tachograph:
Sorry but until I see some evidence that the DVSA are really that stupid or illogical I shall continue to advise people to use the ? symbol in conjunction with written manual entries.

I’m sure you will, because you’re just giving your opinion on the internet, anonymously, and not really caring that you’re woefully behind the times and out of touch with current practices. When I’m working in an advisory capacity it’s usually in a direct personal manner, with a client, customer or driver of same.

If I give wrong information, people can come back to me, a real-life person in a real-life office, and my real-life colleagues, and the very real company we work with. We all need to have Professional Indemnity Insurance to guarantee the advice we give. They don’t have to seek out an internet avatar and have a whinge online.

As I’ve said before, anyone who wants to listen to you on this matter is free to do so. It makes no difference to me. Caveat emptor!

40

gov.uk/government/publicati … other-work

With effect from 20 August 2020, the following changes were made to the retained Regulation (EC) 561/2006 (EU drivers’ hours rules) and retained Regulation (EU) 165/2014 (tachograph rules)[footnote 1].
1) Article 6(5) of retained Regulation (EC) 561/2006) requires manual records to be kept of all work (including out of scope driving and any other work) and periods of availability, using either the manual inputs on a digital/smart tachograph or by making a manual record on a record sheet (from analogue tachographs) or on printout paper (from digital tachographs).
2) Article 34(5)(b)(iv) of retained Regulation (EU) 165/2014 requires periods of annual leave and sick leave, as well as breaks and rest to be recorded on the tachograph.
Along with other parts of the regulations in place before August 2020, the changes mean that all drivers (including occasional drivers) must keep a full set of records of their activities for the current day and the previous 28 days. The records must cover their:
driving
other work
periods of availability
breaks
rest
annual leave and sick leave
The detailed guidance on the drivers’ hours and tachograph rules for drivers of goods vehicles and passenger vehicles was updated on 20 August 2020 to cover the above and other changes to the rules. You can view it at:
Drivers’ hours and tachographs: goods vehicles
gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … s-vehicles
Drivers’ hours and tachographs: buses and coaches
gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … r-vehicles

The aforementioned Footnote
Regulation (EC) 561/2006 and Regulation (EU) 165/2014 (as amended by Regulation (EU) 2020/1054) and retained as UK law by Section 3 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.