adam277:
Well because your not insured to drive it for one lol
We are going pretty deep into this.
But what if you work for a pretty large retailer and they find out that someone who is not insured to drive their trucks has had their card in slot 2 when they go to download the trucks tacho data.
Maybe a rule of their insurance provider is everyone who in the truck must be insured to drive. Or some silly clause in some fine print somewhere that with multi Manning everyone in the truck must be insured to drive
I worked for a few of the giant supermarkets now and they all have the same policy. No passengers at all. As they are not covered on the insurance. You can pick up and drop off other drivers but that’s it.
That all being said. I don’t put my card in slot 2 if I’m showing someone the ropes. Or if I am being given lift to the dealership to pick up a truck.
I just crack on.
Also has anyone ever been stopped by the plod with a passenger driver who has their card in slot 2 but is not insured to drive?
If I was the DVSA I would quite frankly assume they were intending to double man a run with one guy who has no insurance.
And yes the DVSA do check insurance along with tacho records.
So there is a question to be asked about the op putting his card in slot 2
Well done,
for getting it pretty much as badly wrong regards the law as is possible.
.
adam277:
Well because your not insured to drive it for one lol
We are going pretty deep into this.
But what if you work for a pretty large retailer and they find out that someone who is not insured to drive their trucks has had their card in slot 2 when they go to download the trucks tacho data.
Maybe a rule of their insurance provider is everyone who in the truck must be insured to drive. Or some silly clause in some fine print somewhere that with multi Manning everyone in the truck must be insured to drive
I worked for a few of the giant supermarkets now and they all have the same policy. No passengers at all. As they are not covered on the insurance. You can pick up and drop off other drivers but that’s it.
That all being said. I don’t put my card in slot 2 if I’m showing someone the ropes. Or if I am being given lift to the dealership to pick up a truck.
I just crack on.
Also has anyone ever been stopped by the plod with a passenger driver who has their card in slot 2 but is not insured to drive?
If I was the DVSA I would quite frankly assume they were intending to double man a run with one guy who has no insurance.
And yes the DVSA do check insurance along with tacho records.
So there is a question to be asked about the op putting his card in slot 2
I think your other post on another thread is correct: your job is boring, so you’re just making up crap as you go along.
Franglais:
I think your other post on another thread is correct: your job is boring, so you’re just making up crap as you go along.
it was a hypothetical question. So I guess in a sense I am making stuff up.
But it is a geninue question.
Ok .
Why wouldn’t you put a card in?
Franglais:
Ok .
Why wouldn’t you put a card in?
Well lets say your not insured to drive.
Plod pull you over and run their checks and ask why you are not insured to drive? They will obviously assume your card is in slot 2 because your double manning a run.
If you get a prickly DVSA he could well fine you.
Like I said it is hypothetical.
adam277:
Franglais:
Ok .
Why wouldn’t you put a card in?
Well lets say your not insured to drive.
Plod pull you over and run their checks and ask why you are not insured to drive? They will obviously assume your card is in slot 2 because your double manning a run.
If you get a prickly DVSA he could well fine you.
Like I said it is hypothetical.
Cant see that would get any bust or fine. Assumptions? You get pulled over with 8hrs on your card, and they *assume* you are going to drive 11hrs and bust you for that. Get fined for what you havent done? On an assumption about your future actions??
.
How about assuming you are hiding your intention to hide duty time? In fact that is not an assumption is it? It is what you are doing.
.
adam277:
That all being said. I don’t put my card in slot 2 if I’m showing someone the ropes. Or if I am being given lift to the dealership to pick up a truck.
I just crack on.
You are much more likely to get a fine here.
You are in a truck with a tacho, and are intending to drive that day, you are certainly available to drive, but for some reason(?) choose not to put your card in.
discoman:
stevieboy308:
beefy4605:
Its there in black and white from a source that you have provided . I’m not entirely sure why you can’t accept whats written .
I have said from the start that the mate did not need a card in as he wasnt insured and only needs a card from the point he was insured . Your source from DVSA / Department of Transport backs that up .
You can twist it any way you like but from this point on your arguing with yourself .
Which bit is in disagreement with what I’ve consistently written?
Again it is not acceptable to put the card in and do a manual entry as you claim
Ok, so as a digicard holder, I should do a log book even though I don’t drive trucks ■■ … behave… the fact is he is a drivers mate and not driving this he is not required to put his digicard in….
He is not obliged to do any manual entry as a driver as he was a drivers mate…
If I get a job as a drivers mate just because I hold a class one doesn’t mean I need to do manual entries, if that was the case all drivers mates with no lgv licence would need to do it…
Just accept you are wrong …l he’s not insured so won’t drive the truck.
What are you on about?
When have I said anyone needs to ‘do’ a logbook? What I’ve said is that if you need to make a record of your other work, then a logbook is only legal if it’s for whilst you’ve been operating under GB domestic rules. If you need to make a record of office work as per Adam’s example then o pointed out your legal options are manual entry or written on a wax chart or on a printout, I backed this up with screenshots from the full official government guidance. But did say a diary / logbook will probably be accepted in the majority of cases.
If you drive under the EU regs then you need the records of your work in the previous 28 days
I said right from the beginning that he legally doesn’t need to put his card in as he’s not insured.
But that would prevent him from driving later if there were a change of plan.
How am I wrong? I’ve been consistent and Adam was good enough to find the email id previously posted up to from the DVSAs policy department that backs up what I’ve said.
Manual entries were brought up by Adam and beefy saying if things change and he needed to drive he could do a manual entry at that point, I said that isn’t legal and again this was backed up by the email, thanks Adam
Drivers mates with no hgv aren’t subject to the EU regs and it’s record keeping requirements, so not sure why you think anyone has suggested that or implied.
Did you maybe reply to the wrong person?
adam277:
Franglais:
Ok .
Why wouldn’t you put a card in?
Well lets say your not insured to drive.
Plod pull you over and run their checks and ask why you are not insured to drive? They will obviously assume your card is in slot 2 because your double manning a run.
If you get a prickly DVSA he could well fine you.
Like I said it is hypothetical.
Tell you what, have a read of the enforcement sanctions policy and let us know which fine they would issue… For assuming you would drive later on
gov.uk/government/publicati … ons-policy
stevieboy308:
adam277:
Franglais:
Ok .
Why wouldn’t you put a card in?
Well lets say your not insured to drive.
Plod pull you over and run their checks and ask why you are not insured to drive? They will obviously assume your card is in slot 2 because your double manning a run.
If you get a prickly DVSA he could well fine you.
Like I said it is hypothetical.
Tell you what, have a read of the enforcement sanctions policy and let us know which fine they would issue… For assuming you would drive later on
gov.uk/government/publicati … ons-policy
395 pages of fun.
I fully admit I may be at risk of a fine if I for example. get driven in a truck to the dealers to pick up a unit.
Although I personally think it is frankly stupid.
I can be driven in a truck as a passenger and if I dont put my tacho in I get fined. But If I get driven in a car to the dealers its perfectly fine just to do a manual entry when I get in my unit.
Although to be honest. I think we are rating the DVSA officers to highly on their knowledge of the regs. Most I suspect are mouth breathers 
adam277:
stevieboy308:
adam277:
Franglais:
Ok .
Why wouldn’t you put a card in?
Well lets say your not insured to drive.
Plod pull you over and run their checks and ask why you are not insured to drive? They will obviously assume your card is in slot 2 because your double manning a run.
If you get a prickly DVSA he could well fine you.
Like I said it is hypothetical.
Tell you what, have a read of the enforcement sanctions policy and let us know which fine they would issue… For assuming you would drive later on
gov.uk/government/publicati … ons-policy
395 pages of fun.
I fully admit I may be at risk of a fine if I for example. get driven in a truck to the dealers to pick up a unit.
Although I personally think it is frankly stupid.
I can be driven in a truck as a passenger and if I dont put my tacho in I get fined. But If I get driven in a car to the dealers its perfectly fine just to do a manual entry when I get in my unit.
Although to be honest. I think we are rating the DVSA officers to highly on their knowledge of the regs. Most I suspect are mouth breathers
There used to be a firm by me, courier firm, started with 1 ■■■■■■ van, ended up running a few 7.5t, they would send 2 drivers out, only 1 would put their card in at a time, run their time out then swap, not sure if it was because they didn’t know or because they then could unless stopped do more than a 21 hour shift. But that’s what it’s stopping, I agree it does seem daft if just getting a lift 20 mins down the road, especially if like in the email the example of a transport manager getting a lift that never actually drives, but I suppose you’ve got to have a black and white rule. To be fair there’s no inconvenience to a normal driver to stick your card in, it’s only the occasional driver with the associated records requirements that’s it’s an issue for.
Great debate as always, on the part about diaries. I was sat in front of one mr Kevin Rooney in Bristol about two months ago alongside a driver who stated he recorded his other non-driving work days and days off in a diary, he was told in no uncertain terms that this was unacceptable/not legal. He even went on to say if you have a digicard then everything should be on that. Driver was also told that should he appear in front of him again with the same unsatisfactory records he will be going home without his vocational licence.
Don’t shoot the messenger lol and a happy new year to you all.
stevieboy308:
adam277:
Franglais:
Ok .
Why wouldn’t you put a card in?
Well lets say your not insured to drive.
Plod pull you over and run their checks and ask why you are not insured to drive? They will obviously assume your card is in slot 2 because your double manning a run.
If you get a prickly DVSA he could well fine you.
Like I said it is hypothetical.
Tell you what, have a read of the enforcement sanctions policy and let us know which fine they would issue… For assuming you would drive later on
gov.uk/government/publicati … ons-policy
Have a read of the same policy and show us where it tells you that you have to put your card in slot 2 if you WILL NOT be available to drive during that shift, i have already shown earlier in black and white from .gov that defines that you can only be classed as a driver if you are actually going to be available to drive the thing, no insurance so not available to drive, this would stand up in court!!!
Just because you have a drivers mate who just happens to hold a license, it doesn’t mean he is classed as a driver, because that may not even be his job, he may have been taken on as a drivers mate so is not insured as a driver, so you would be not be running double manned, even though there are 2 people in the lorry…hypothetically
shullbit:
Have a read of the same policy and show us where it tells you that you have to put your card in slot 2 if you WILL NOT be available to drive during that shift, i have already shown earlier in black and white from .gov that defines that you can only be classed as a driver if you are actually going to be available to drive the thing, no insurance so not available to drive, this would stand up in court!!!
Ill ask the same question as before: Why wouldnt you put your card in?
At the roadside a cop or DVSA will see two crew members. They will expect two cards in the tacho.
If not the onus now falls onto the #2 driver to explain why he hasnt put his card in doesnt it?
Why put yourself into the position of appearing to be in the wrong, even if you arent? Standing there arguing that you dont actually have insurance for this vehicle, nor any vehicle you could get into later on in the shift, doesn`t seem very good to me.
I can see not putting a card in could cause arguments.
I can see no (legal) advantage to keeping it out.
Assuming you are not actually working illegal hours. Not being discussed here.
…Can leaving your card out ever be illegal?
Yes.
Maybe not in some cases, but it can in others.
…Can leaving card in ever be illegal?
No.
At least I don`t think anyone has suggested that?
Card in for me, then.
Franglais:
shullbit:
Have a read of the same policy and show us where it tells you that you have to put your card in slot 2 if you WILL NOT be available to drive during that shift, i have already shown earlier in black and white from .gov that defines that you can only be classed as a driver if you are actually going to be available to drive the thing, no insurance so not available to drive, this would stand up in court!!!
Ill ask the same question as before: Why wouldnt you put your card in?
At the roadside a cop or DVSA will see two crew members. They will expect two cards in the tacho.
If not the onus now falls onto the #2 driver to explain why he hasnt put his card in doesnt it?
Why put yourself into the position of appearing to be in the wrong, even if you arent? Standing there arguing that you dont actually have insurance for this vehicle, nor any vehicle you could get into later on in the shift, doesn`t seem very good to me.
I can see not putting a card in could cause arguments.
I can see no (legal) advantage to keeping it out.
Assuming you are not actually working illegal hours. Not being discussed here.
…Can leaving your card out ever be illegal?
Yes.
Maybe not in some cases, but it can in others.
…Can leaving card in ever be illegal?
No.
At least I don`t think anyone has suggested that?
Card in for me, then.
I wouldn’t put my card in because I am not required in this situation by law to do so, another angle, he has driven 56 hours last week and so far this week he has driven 34 hours after 4 days, on day 5 he will be working as a drivers mate he has already maxed out his driving hours so he is NOT AVAILABLE to drive, so no need to put card in slot 2 BECAUSE HE IS NOT RUNNING UNDER DOUBLE MANNED RULES.
Slot 2 is to be used when DOUBLE MANNING, or to use its correct term…MULT MANNING 2 people in the lorry does not always mean that you are double manned, its not really that hard to understand.
shullbit:
Franglais:
shullbit:
Have a read of the same policy and show us where it tells you that you have to put your card in slot 2 if you WILL NOT be available to drive during that shift, i have already shown earlier in black and white from .gov that defines that you can only be classed as a driver if you are actually going to be available to drive the thing, no insurance so not available to drive, this would stand up in court!!!
Ill ask the same question as before: Why wouldnt you put your card in?
At the roadside a cop or DVSA will see two crew members. They will expect two cards in the tacho.
If not the onus now falls onto the #2 driver to explain why he hasnt put his card in doesnt it?
Why put yourself into the position of appearing to be in the wrong, even if you arent? Standing there arguing that you dont actually have insurance for this vehicle, nor any vehicle you could get into later on in the shift, doesn`t seem very good to me.
I can see not putting a card in could cause arguments.
I can see no (legal) advantage to keeping it out.
Assuming you are not actually working illegal hours. Not being discussed here.
…Can leaving your card out ever be illegal?
Yes.
Maybe not in some cases, but it can in others.
…Can leaving card in ever be illegal?
No.
At least I don`t think anyone has suggested that?
Card in for me, then.
I wouldn’t put my card in because I am not required in this situation by law to do so, another angle, he has driven 56 hours last week and so far this week he has driven 34 hours after 3 days, on day 4 he will be working as a drivers mate he has already maxed out his driving hours so he is NOT AVAILABLE to drive, so no need to put card in slot 2 BECAUSE HE IS NOT RUNNING UNDER DOUBLE MANNED RULES.
Slot 2 is to be used when DOUBLE MANNING, or to use its correct term…MULT MANNING 2 people in the lorry does not always mean that you are double manned, its not really that hard to understand.
(Assuming again not actually working illegally)
Is it ever illegal to put card into slot 2?..No…Cannot cause problems.
Is it ever illegal to leave card out of slot 2? …Yes…Can cause problems.
Seems simple to me.
Why wouldn`t I put my card in?
Franglais:
shullbit:
Franglais:
shullbit:
Have a read of the same policy and show us where it tells you that you have to put your card in slot 2 if you WILL NOT be available to drive during that shift, i have already shown earlier in black and white from .gov that defines that you can only be classed as a driver if you are actually going to be available to drive the thing, no insurance so not available to drive, this would stand up in court!!!
Ill ask the same question as before: Why wouldnt you put your card in?
At the roadside a cop or DVSA will see two crew members. They will expect two cards in the tacho.
If not the onus now falls onto the #2 driver to explain why he hasnt put his card in doesnt it?
Why put yourself into the position of appearing to be in the wrong, even if you arent? Standing there arguing that you dont actually have insurance for this vehicle, nor any vehicle you could get into later on in the shift, doesn`t seem very good to me.
I can see not putting a card in could cause arguments.
I can see no (legal) advantage to keeping it out.
Assuming you are not actually working illegal hours. Not being discussed here.
…Can leaving your card out ever be illegal?
Yes.
Maybe not in some cases, but it can in others.
…Can leaving card in ever be illegal?
No.
At least I don`t think anyone has suggested that?
Card in for me, then.
I wouldn’t put my card in because I am not required in this situation by law to do so, another angle, he has driven 56 hours last week and so far this week he has driven 34 hours after 3 days, on day 4 he will be working as a drivers mate he has already maxed out his driving hours so he is NOT AVAILABLE to drive, so no need to put card in slot 2 BECAUSE HE IS NOT RUNNING UNDER DOUBLE MANNED RULES.
Slot 2 is to be used when DOUBLE MANNING, or to use its correct term…MULT MANNING 2 people in the lorry does not always mean that you are double manned, its not really that hard to understand.
(Assuming again not actually working illegally)
Is it ever illegal to put card into slot 2?..No…Cannot cause problems.
Is it ever illegal to leave card out of slot 2? …Yes…Can cause problems.
Seems simple to me.
Why wouldn`t I put my card in?
Because going back to the OPs question which he asked, does he NEED to put his card in slot 2, the simple answer is that he doesn’t need to, that’s why. So this thread should be 2 posts long!
shullbit:
Because going back to the OPs question which he asked, does he NEED to put his card in slot 2, the simple answer is that he doesn’t need to, that’s why. So this thread should be 2 posts long
We are of a similar mind here, even if not the same.
Does the OP Need to insert card? Depending on the circumstances…as discussed at length… maybe not.
But, I for one, would always insert my card.
Why not?
Well there is one good thing to come out of this thread, we can all have some fun at our next CPC
shullbit:
Well there is one good thing to come out of this thread, we can all have some fun at our next CPC
That`ll be a first!
But, I`m knocking on retirement, so may forgo the pleasure of another round of such.
shullbit:
stevieboy308:
adam277:
Franglais:
Ok .
Why wouldn’t you put a card in?
Well lets say your not insured to drive.
Plod pull you over and run their checks and ask why you are not insured to drive? They will obviously assume your card is in slot 2 because your double manning a run.
If you get a prickly DVSA he could well fine you.
Like I said it is hypothetical.
Tell you what, have a read of the enforcement sanctions policy and let us know which fine they would issue… For assuming you would drive later on
gov.uk/government/publicati … ons-policy
Have a read of the same policy and show us where it tells you that you have to put your card in slot 2 if you WILL NOT be available to drive during that shift, i have already shown earlier in black and white from .gov that defines that you can only be classed as a driver if you are actually going to be available to drive the thing, no insurance so not available to drive, this would stand up in court!!!
Just because you have a drivers mate who just happens to hold a license, it doesn’t mean he is classed as a driver, because that may not even be his job, he may have been taken on as a drivers mate so is not insured as a driver, so you would be not be running double manned, even though there are 2 people in the lorry…hypothetically
Are you deliberately trying to make yourself look silly?
I have said right from the beginning that if he’s not insured then he is not available to drive and therefore wouldn’t need to put his card in.
You can check this by looking at my 1st reply to the thread very early on in the discussion. I have remained consistent on this throughout. I also include the definition of a driver for the EU regs right at the very beginning.
What I have said though if for whatever reason he ended up driving then that proves he should have had his card in from the beginning and doing a manual entry at that point isn’t acceptable.
So if something meant the original driver couldn’t drive, then if he’d not had his card in he couldn’t get insured and take over.
I also said right from the beginning that I’d put my card in as there is no negative in doing so, but there are a few positives, so it’s a no brainer.
Have a coffee and let that sink in